Refeed Plans - preferences?

maverick4x4
maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
edited December 2020 in Health and Weight Loss
What are your preferred refeed structures? What has worked, what hasn't? What have you liked/not liked about the different approaches? Other approaches that worked better?

My story: I've been doing 1600cal/day 25/50/25 c/p/f for two years (avg 1650ish actual). Tracking everything with MFP. Lost 40lbs over the first 8 months, then plateaued the next 15 months (mistakes were made, identified, but still stayed 195 +/- 2). Didn't lose too much muscle. The goal is to get a bit leaner than where I'm at right now and then maintain about where I'm at presently*. While I've definitely had special occasions over the last 2 years, very rarely have I been non-deficit for more than 24 hours.

I read in the forums here about refeeding a few weeks ago (ordered Lyle McDonalds books/watched videos). I've tried three refeeds since (3days, then Thanksgiving week, then 2 days last weekend). I'm 7-8 lbs heavier, look the same, clothes tighter, stronger in most lifts. At first I thought I would just refeed every few weeks, but now I think I'm going to do it weekly, based on what I learned (so much I don't know) (why did I wait so long?).

I think there are 4 approaches I'm interested in:
  1. 5/2: 5 day deficit, refeed on the weekend (2 days)
  2. 4.5/2.5: 4.5 day deficit, refeed starting Friday afternoon through the weekend
  3. 4/3 version 1: M-Th deficit, refeed Fri-Sun
  4. 4/3 version 2: M&T deficit, refeed W, Th&F deficit, refeed Sa, Su

I thought I'd start with the last version, makes for a nice lunch at least once a week...doing that this week....though I don't think I love it. May do the 4.5/2.5 so I can start loading Friday night and do my usual Sat AM full-body and get some good recharging. I do a split routine during the week and Sat morning is a "whatever" day (machines and sled, hike, crossfit, skiing, outdoor adventure, who knows).

Refeed days will be 2300 cal, 45/35/20 cpf. Still looking at g/lb of protein, and upping the carbs to make the difference. Calorie deficient days will continue at 1600 25/50/25 cpf, though I may take this to 1700 or 1800 later on. I back calculated my BMR at 2200ish based on the first 8 months lbs lost/week and calories in.

*I've wondered what maintenance would look like...I think it might be a combination of one of these plans, with less of a deficit, once I hit my goals.

Here's my story: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10750145/dad-bod-to-grandpa-bod/p1
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Replies

  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Wow, you have managed to make refeeds infinitely more complicated than they need to be...

    Really, it's up to you, based on your lifestyle (what suits) and your goals.

    For physiological benefit, a refeed needs to be at least two days of high carb intake (with cals at maintenance). So your version for with a day in the middle of the week really won't do anything much from that perspective, but the psychological factor of having a nice lunch out may be important to you. Also remember that every day you're eating at maintenance, you're not in a deficit (obviously), and therefore slowing weight loss. If you're happy with that, cool.

    I did weekend refeeds for a few months while dropping some vanity weight in late 2017 (which is where the infamous Refeeds and Diet Breaks thread sprang from). In terms of frequency, it was overkill for my needs, level of body fat, etc, but made getting that weight off oh so easy.

    I'm a little confused about what you're doing calorie-wise, using such old data may not be helpful, and also you're including data from when you were substantially heavier and burning more calories because of that. If you're currently eating 1650 and maintaining, then that's maintenance. Also, do you mean TDEE, rather than BMR? If you've gained 7-8lbs with the refeeds you've done so far, you're doing them at a surplus, not maintenance. So, I think you need to take a look at that again. I'm going to beetlejuice @heybales in here to help with that.
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    The version with a maintenance day in the middle of the week isn't my version, it's one of the plans that Lyle suggested in one of his videos. I thought I would give it a shot.

    How did I complicate it? I presented 4 plans that Lyle presented in his videos. The rest of the post is just background. I'm looking to see what experiences others have had.

    The 7-8 pounds was pretty much within a couple of days and then stayed, which seems to be more consistent with water weight and getting glycogen back in the muscle cells than with just an increase in fat. I just didn't eat that many calories during the refeeds I've done. Maybe altogether 4500 cal above "usual" (I wanted to make sure I was in surplus). So that would be just over 1lb? I fully expected to gain at least 5-6lbs of water weight, it's happened every time I've had high calorie days.

    I'll have to look up TDEE, it's not a term I'm familiar with. Total daily energy expenditure? I guess now I need to look up how that's different from BMR.

    195 is 84% of 232 (former weight). 1600 is 72% of 2200. Most of what I lost was fat, so why would my TDEE drop so much more? The whole leptin thing seems to explain it. Which is why I thought I'd give it a shot.

  • Lietchi
    Lietchi Posts: 6,107 Member
    BMR means basal metabolic rate, the amount of calories you burn at complete rest. For weight loss that's pretty much a theoretical number, it's only a part of the total amount of calories you burn.
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    I did weekend refeeds for a few months while dropping some vanity weight in late 2017 (which is where the infamous Refeeds and Diet Breaks thread sprang from). In terms of frequency, it was overkill for my needs, level of body fat, etc, but made getting that weight off oh so easy..

    Overkill making that you did it more often than needed? But it made it easier? Or just easy? Easier in what way? Quicker? Less hungry? Just curious. Thanks!

    Like I said, I'm not done losing the vanity weight (fat) but overall I like where I am, I just hoped to maintain at a little higher TDEE.
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    edited December 2020
    Lietchi wrote: »
    BMR means basal metabolic rate, the amount of calories you burn at complete rest. For weight loss that's pretty much a theoretical number, it's only a part of the total amount of calories you burn.

    BMR is a term that I'm familiar with and understand what it means but I've been discounting or ignoring exercise calories on purpose, mainly because I mostly weight train and it's a lot harder to quantify that vs running or cycling. TDEE is a term I was not familiar with but upon looking it I see if it is simply BMR plus exercise/activity. I can see why TDEE is a more accurate term to use in these discussions and I will do so. Unfortunately, I can no longer go back and edit my original post. Thanks!
  • Lietchi
    Lietchi Posts: 6,107 Member
    maverick4x4 wrote: »
    Lietchi wrote: »
    BMR means basal metabolic rate, the amount of calories you burn at complete rest. For weight loss that's pretty much a theoretical number, it's only a part of the total amount of calories you burn.

    BMR is a term that I'm familiar with and understand what it means but I've been discounting or ignoring exercise calories on purpose. TDEE is a term I was not familiar with but upon looking it I see if it is simply BMR plus exercise/activity. I can see why TDEE is a more accurate term to use in these discussions and I will do so. Thanks!

    Just to be fully precise (for the benefit of others who might be reading as well), TDEE is BMR + TEF (energy to process food) + NEAT (non exercise activity) + exercise
    But yeah, TDEE is indeed more relevant when talking about maintenance, deficits and surpluses 🙂
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    maverick4x4 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    I did weekend refeeds for a few months while dropping some vanity weight in late 2017 (which is where the infamous Refeeds and Diet Breaks thread sprang from). In terms of frequency, it was overkill for my needs, level of body fat, etc, but made getting that weight off oh so easy..

    Overkill making that you did it more often than needed? But it made it easier? Or just easy? Easier in what way? Quicker? Less hungry? Just curious. Thanks!

    Like I said, I'm not done losing the vanity weight (fat) but overall I like where I am, I just hoped to maintain at a little higher TDEE.

    Yep, just more often that I needed to from a physiological standpoint. Probably by the time I got down to goal weight, weekly was more necessary with the deficit I was running, but for most of it I probably would have been fine with two weekly. The leaner you are, the more frequent your diet breaks and refeeds should be. But there's nothing wrong with doing them more often than technically needed if it helps you stick with it.

    Easier in that adherence on my five deficit days was super easy. My muscles were chock full of glycogen to support activity, so there were no worries there, and I could just sail along, knowing I could eat more on the weekends. I don't remember having any hunger issues. I chronicled it all pretty well in the refeeds thread, but I realise that thing is about a billion pages long!
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    edited December 2020
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Okay, if that gain is consistent with what you usually see with increased carbs, that's fine. It didn't make much sense that you would gain fat on those cals.

    Yes, TDEE is total daily energy expenditure. BMR is basal metabolic rate, basically what you burn just existing (like if you were in a coma), it doesn't take account of anything else. Your TDEE drops because there's less of you. A smaller body requires fewer calories to run. You lose something like 5 cals for every lb, therefore a 40 lb weight loss equals 200 calories less a day that you're burning. So if you never recalculated your calorie allowance while you were losing weight, your deficit was getting smaller along with you.

    With this info, having read through your other thread, and having taken a peak at your diary, my suggestions would be a) do your best to estimate current TDEE (basing it off of calculators is probably your best bet for now); tighten up your food logging (it doesn't look like you're weighing your food? I suspect you are underestimating your calorie intake, because there is no way an active man your height should be maintaining on 1600-1700 a day); c) take a full diet break at maintenance, two weeks, 150g carbs minimum (refeeds are never going to bring hormones back into line the way a diet break will), THEN employ whichever refeed strategy you prefer.

    Thanks! I appreciate the time and effort you have taken to help me out.

    One diet break coming up! (It will start Jan 7 on the flight to Hawaii, total spur trip the moment trip my wife and youngest son cooked up yesterday and booked today, lol) (and I'm just vain enough that I want to look good on the beach)

    I was hoping the 9 days around Thanksgiving week would be enough of a diet break.

    You're probably right about the calories, I don't weigh my food, etc, so there is definitely a margin of error. Maybe I'm really at 1700-1800, but that just means my back calculated TDEE was higher too, since I was still losing 1.25 lbs/ week December- August 2019. The 10 days in Brugge/Paris in April 2019, right in the middle, added 2 lbs the first day, lost 2lbs there, and I lost 2lbs a couple days after returning home. Glorious waffles and 10 miles of walking/day were good for me)
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    maverick4x4 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Okay, if that gain is consistent with what you usually see with increased carbs, that's fine. It didn't make much sense that you would gain fat on those cals.

    Yes, TDEE is total daily energy expenditure. BMR is basal metabolic rate, basically what you burn just existing (like if you were in a coma), it doesn't take account of anything else. Your TDEE drops because there's less of you. A smaller body requires fewer calories to run. You lose something like 5 cals for every lb, therefore a 40 lb weight loss equals 200 calories less a day that you're burning. So if you never recalculated your calorie allowance while you were losing weight, your deficit was getting smaller along with you.

    With this info, having read through your other thread, and having taken a peak at your diary, my suggestions would be a) do your best to estimate current TDEE (basing it off of calculators is probably your best bet for now); tighten up your food logging (it doesn't look like you're weighing your food? I suspect you are underestimating your calorie intake, because there is no way an active man your height should be maintaining on 1600-1700 a day); c) take a full diet break at maintenance, two weeks, 150g carbs minimum (refeeds are never going to bring hormones back into line the way a diet break will), THEN employ whichever refeed strategy you prefer.

    Thanks! I appreciate the time and effort you have taken to help me out.

    One diet break coming up! (It will start Jan 7 on the flight to Hawaii, total spur trip the moment trip my wife and youngest son cooked up yesterday and booked today, lol) (and I'm just vain enough that I want to look good on the beach)

    I was hoping the 9 days around Thanksgiving week would be enough of a diet break.

    You're probably right about the calories, I don't weigh my food, etc, so there is definitely a margin of error. Maybe I'm really at 1700-1800, but that just means my back calculated TDEE was higher too, since I was still losing 1.25 lbs/ week December- August 2019. The 10 days in Brugge/Paris in April 2019, right in the middle, added 5 lbs the first day, lost 2lbs there, and I lost 5lbs a couple days after returning home. Glorious waffles and 10 miles of walking/day were good for me)

    No worries! I'm just happy that people are still finding the Refeeds thread useful :)

    Lyle says 10 days minimum for diet break, and longer is better. You probably won't get much of a bump in terms of increased TDEE, but every little bit, right? Another thread you may like to take a look at is the NEAT thread - https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10610953/neat-improvement-strategies-to-improve-weight-loss#latest

    Basically increasing day to day movement to increase TDEE, and therefore eat more :)
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    edited December 2020
    Funny that you mention NEAT. With the 'Rona virus we are using Microsoft teams and other virtual platforms a lot more in our office and I'm not running up and down the stairs meeting with all the different engineers and designers throughout the day like I used to. I spend a lot more time in and around my specific office rather than roaming the building and I think there's got to be a calorie component to that.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    maverick4x4 wrote: »
    Funny that you mention NEAT. With the 'Rona virus we are using Microsoft teams and other virtual platforms a lot more in our office and I'm not running up and down the stairs meeting with all the different engineers and designers throughout the day like I used to. I spend a lot more time in and around my specific office rather than roaming the building and I think there's got to be a calorie component to that.

    There is a considerable calorie component to that, trust me! If you can find ways to compensate for that lost movement, do.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    edited December 2020
    I'll mention a couple of other diet methods that take care of the hormonal issue in studies.

    The 5:2 partial fast method - gives an overall 22% deficit weekly. Works if you have consistent workouts/daily activity and avg weekly TDEE can be estimated.
    5 days eat at avg TDEE, 2 non-consecutive days eat at 25% of avg TDEE.

    Got to have a workout program that can support that, with weight lifting only it can be hard, as usually 24 hrs after lifting is recovery when body would really like those extra calories, so day after lifting not good for 25% TDEE. Unless you lift in morning and eat all day - then following day may be just fine.

    Alternate week deficit method - can use MFP as designed in variable workouts and such, but need to log correctly.
    1 week eat at TDEE.
    1 week eat at deficit.
    Simple as that - the study had rather big deficits and still had no issues with hormones going back to normal because they barely took a dip in just a week - so what would be an unreasonable deficit for extended can be done.
    Can work well with lifting - expect no progress on deficit week - really pound it out on TDEE weeks.


    Both of those diet methods likely would take care of the mental issue Lyle attempts to take care of by having a 1 day refeed that he knows is not useful for hormones. Both don't need high carb days because at least 50% of the days are normal anyway at TDEE.

    Both methods probably benefit attempting a baseline TDEE week with no diet prior to starting them.

    I could never get the 5:2 into my schedule, though I could easily do the 25% aspect since I IF anyway and get stupid late sometimes for dinner, due to things, and am not hungry.

    Alternate week is easy, and my preferred method near end of winter doing lifting, to drop some bulking weight before biking season starts up. Can keep progressing on lifts and not a mental challenge at all. You get used to 1st couple days starting deficit to feel a tad hungry, just means drinking more fluids I was really lacking anyway.

    ETA - Sardelsa reminded me doing alternate week, the Mon coming into deficit was still a good workout since just had refed so long, so only 2 workouts on deficit week weren't great.

    If you are going to have fun with data to estimate TDEE, for days/weeks that life now matched back then - and you were actively losing weight, couple recommendations if the weight is different now, considering you seem to have big water weight fluctuations.

    Only include weeks with a loss. Nothing from the 15 months that is likely bad logging.
    Don't include the 1st week after getting back on a diet from a break. Water weight change ruins math.
    Note your avg weight at that time, and BMR at the time. Mifflin BMR formula easy to find.
    I'd do weekly data lines in spreadsheet for that 40 lb loss.
    Each week pull an estimated TDEE based on logged eaten and amount lost and weight, and divide by BMR to get your activity level at the time. Note which weeks seem like same schedule as now if you have lots of differences, or which weeks to leave out may be easier.
    Pull an avg activity level factor on the similar weeks.

    If your activity level is similar now at current weight, current BMR x activity factor = current TDEE at whatever level of accuracy food logging was.
    If sloppy, keep it sloppy. Your number is based on that being the same.


    Your first post sounds a little odd talking of following one of those plans with deficit when you are at maintenance level.
    There is no deficit at maintenance. Not on average.
    Now, some people may have some carb cycling going on to benefit lifting, or at least eat more on recovery 24 hrs and less before the workout - but on avg there is no deficit.
    Those plans you reference are with deficit, where a refeed is desired. Won't need those.
  • sardelsa
    sardelsa Posts: 9,812 Member
    I can tell you what worked for me. During my last cut after my last bulk, I decided to start out with 2 weekend refeeds days. I actually calorie cycled where I had 2 ultra low deficit days, 3 maintenance/high deficit days and then the 2 surplus "refeeds" days. As I got leaner one of the maintenance days started to turn into a surplus and my deficit went down a bit which I found very helpful as I got low in bodyfat.

    So on the refeed days I would keep fats and protein around the same (sometimes a little higher but not overboard) and really get the carbs up. I was able fit in pancakes, pasta, breads, more sweets etc.

    The benefits I found were better adherence, if I was craving something higher calorie I knew I just had to wait until the weekend to have it. Also I was able to participate in functions, weddings, events, date nights, family dinners.. no one would ever guess I was cutting. It was fabulous.
    Also workout performance benefits.. I would have a lifting session on the Saturday and then a heavy Monday one following the refeeds. That Monday session was killer with all the carbs, so that was good.

    Drawbacks, I suppose it would be getting back on schedule come Monday, for some people that can be difficult. Also the ultra low days sucked. I'm not gonna lie. I was hungry. But.. it was only twice a week on non-lifting days, so I got used to it after a while.

    Anyways not sure if any of that was helpful, I didn't read through the comments so not sure what else was addressed.
    I would say play around with different refeed structures, macro ratios, and see what works for you.
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    I've also been taking in 8.5g/day of creatine for the last few weeks rather than my usual 3g/day.
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    Started my 2 week diet break yesterday. I've done weekend refeeds since the last post. Looking forward to eating some things that I've missed, but honestly, I'm anxious to get cutting again... I'm not looking as lean as I was pre-refeeds, and even then I was still wanting to get a little leaner.
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  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    Back home, 3 more days of this. Can't wait to let the shredding begin. Gonna enjoy some 5 guys Cajun Fries first though.
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    Woooohooo! Let the re-shred begin! The two week diet break ended yesterday. It was brutal, eating Hawaiian shave ice and fish tacos, peanut butter M&Ms and leftover See's candies from Christmas, but I powered through. Overall weight went from 195 to 211 from mid-Oct to now. Guessing some is water, glycogen, more water(creatine) and some fat. I'm bigger all over, clothes a little tighter, abs less defined.

    Started the refeeds in mid-Oct, a couple of days, then a week for Thanksgiving, then a couple weekends, then a two-week diet break. Also increased creatine from 3g/day to 8g/day in mid-Dec. Avg calories Oct-Dec jumped from 1700 to 1900-2200, and diet break cals avg'd 2800. 200-250 g/day carbs, tried to keep the protein 180-200 g/day.

    This first week will be a little goofy because it's close to the weekend, but after that I plan on doing 4-5 days of deficit and 2-3 days of maintenance. I really don't know what my maintenance is yet though...I still have some mathing to do.*

    The reason I got interested in refeeds is this:
    I started at 232 and dropped to 192, but let's say 195 because that's where I was most of the time after dropping weight. 195/232 = 84%
    I started at an estimated TDEE of 2300 cal/day and plateaued at 1600 cal/day 1600/2300 = 69%. And if 1700, then 74%
    Started at 20%-ish bf = 185lbs lean, ended at 10%-ish bf = 175lbs lean 175/185=94%.
    Activity levels are practically identical, then to now. Strength levels dropped a little, not much, came up with carbs.

    It didn't make sent to me that if lean only dropped by 6% (maybe a little more) and total weight by 16%, how did TDEE drop by 25-30%? This is why the hormonal component / leptin thing resonated with me. If my TDEE was 2300 or so, I'd expect my new TDEE to be in the 1950-2150 range....not 1750 (avg Sept '19 to Oct '20)

    *I just went and took a look at the numbers. I was averaging 1.18 lbs/wk (Dec '18 to June '19), which would be 590 cal/d deficit. If my logging was accurate, avg 1650 cal/d, TDEE was 2240. If my logging is inaccurate, and is actually higher, then my TDEE is higher, but since I'll be logging the same way that I have been, it should work out the same.

    Based on the body weight and lean mass ratios above, I would think my new TDEE would be 85-90% of previous, ranging from 1900-2000 cal/d. I'll try 2000 for my maintenance days, 1600 for my deficit days, and see what happens for the next few weeks.
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    So-called maintenance days are proving to be much harder to manage for me than deficit days. I'm tending to treat them more like cheat days, especially the Sunday. It didn't help that it was the SuperBowl yesterday, but I didn't have than as an excuse the previous 2 weekends. Monday isn't as tricky, I'm simply adding a few more carbs or a treat to the usual protein shakes and chicken.
  • maverick4x4
    maverick4x4 Posts: 80 Member
    July check in: Still doing 5 deficit, 2 maintenance. Sun-Mon are maintenance at 2100ish. Tues-Sat are deficit at 1600ish.

    Weight Jumped from mid-190s to 202 at Thanksgiving with first refeed. has ranged from 205-210 since. 10-15 lbs...sadly probably not all water weight ;)

    Strength came up a bit, but so did the fluff (waist and moobs).

    I think I've had a lot of days where I was up to 200 over on the deficit days...and then 300-500ish over on the maintenance days. Planned weekly total: 12,200. Actual: 14,000-15,000. If 2100 was truly a maintenance value, that would be 14,700 cal/week. Looking back over the last 25 weeks, many weekly averages between 1850-1950, and a few between 2000-2200. Weekly average should be 1742. I've only hit that 6 times in '21.

    So...I've been maintaining. Great. Still fairly lean, and like I said, stronger, but not as lean as I'd like to be. I'm not as lean as at 195...I'd like to get back to that level of lean and maintain there (whatever weight that is).

    Eating stricter the last 4 weeks...no real change yet on the scale, but maybe noticeable? (comments at the gym).

    So...do I continue with the program I'm doing and just execute it better, or try something different for a while? Hoping to look a little better for a trip to the beach in early August.

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