Why does moderation work for some people but not all?
avtlove
Posts: 82 Member
I have a really strong sweet tooth. I can eat within my calorie budget some days, and have a treat or two within my range. But other days, I can't seem to stop myself from absolutely going off the rails with any sweets around me. Why is that? Any thoughts? Being able to manage it and eat a few jelly beans at at time or a half cup of ice cream is my dream. But I fail so often. When I do, I just tell myself, oh, well, you can eat all of it now and do better tomorrow.
I've been on this roller coaster for THIRTY years! Probably even more! HELP!!
I've been on this roller coaster for THIRTY years! Probably even more! HELP!!
9
Replies
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I think people are going to show up and talk about how sugar is addictive.
I, frankly, think it's a largely psychological thing and I don't mean that in a 'that makes it easier' way. I think it might actually be harder. I had to do some really deep soul searching to unpack some of my... food relationship dysfunction - ie: WHY IN THE WORLD DO I DO THIS.
Bottom line, for me, is that sweets were a rare treat in a relatively food insecure early life. That led to two things: 1-) Being unable to QUITE believe that I could, in fact, have a candy bar whenever I wanted one. It was a rare and limited thing and the opportunity might never present itself again. Even if I bought one EVERY TIME I went into a gas station or store, it might NEVER happen again. This is obviously ridiculous but my subconscious sure believed it.
2-) It was a signal - whether impulse purchase or existing in the house - that things are 'okay' financially. Because the sugary crap was obviously the last thing on the priority list when buying food.
Then I got to unwire it, which was fun and what works from that point is going to vary. For some people it's 'never have it'. For me it's ALWAYS having it in the house and not running out.
That means it is not, in fact, a 'rare' thing. It's in the cupboard. I have had a pint of ice cream in my freezer since MARCH. Do I eat ice cream? Yes. Do I eat THAT ice cream? No. Because the SECOND I do not have ice cream (or candy or whatever) in the house my hindbrain is going to want it, want it now, and want all of it. Because now things aren't okay, in my head. Now we're broke and food insecure. Now there's a problem in my life and I NEED THE CANDY to prove I can have it. And in that frantic anxiety-ish-ness -- going to eat it.
Other people? Probably better off not having it at all because their reasons are going to be different. And their brains work differently.17 -
Some people are moderators and some abstainers. (Additionally, many of us can moderate some foods but have found we have certain triggers foods from which we should simply abstain.)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-happiness-project/201210/are-you-abstainer-or-moderator
"...When dealing with temptation, I often see the advice, “Be moderate. Don’t have ice cream every night, but if you try to deny yourself altogether, you’ll fall off the wagon. Allow yourself to have the occasional treat, it will help you stick to your plan.”
I’ve come to believe that this is good advice for some people: the “moderators.” They do better when they avoid absolutes and strict rules.
For a long time, I kept trying this strategy of moderation–and failing. Then I read a line from Samuel Johnson, who said, when someone offered him wine: “Abstinence is as easy to me as temperance would be difficult.”
Aha! Like Dr. Johnson, I’m an “abstainer.”
I find it far easier to give something up altogether than to indulge moderately. When I admitted to myself that I was eating my favorite frozen yogurt treat very often–two and even three times a day–I gave it up cold turkey. That was far easier for me to do than to eat it twice a week. If I try to be moderate, I exhaust myself debating, “Today, tomorrow?” “Does this time ‘count?’” “Don’t I deserve this?” etc. If I never do something, it requires no self-control for me; if I do something sometimes, it requires enormous self-control."15 -
I budget my sweet treat for dessert - usually something between 60-150 calories. Then I have my very low calorie wind down treats which I eat afterwards: 6 pieces of Orbitz gum (those little chicklet like pieces) that is an additional 15 calories and gives me a nice sweet boost that lasts a while. Then, to end I have a Sleepy Time herbal tea with a packet of Splenda (4 calories) which I can nurse for a while. If I’m really craving sweet I might have a 10 calorie sugar free jello before the gum.
Knowing I have these extra “sweets” coming make it easier to stop after my actual (higher calorie) dessert because I know I have “more” coming.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Some people are moderators and some abstainers. (Additionally, many of us can moderate some foods but have found we have certain triggers foods from which we should simply abstain.)
"
👆🏻This 💯 percent.
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wunderkindking wrote: »I think people are going to show up and talk about how sugar is addictive.
I, frankly, think it's a largely psychological thing and I don't mean that in a 'that makes it easier' way. I think it might actually be harder. I had to do some really deep soul searching to unpack some of my... food relationship dysfunction - ie: WHY IN THE WORLD DO I DO THIS.
Bottom line, for me, is that sweets were a rare treat in a relatively food insecure early life. That led to two things: 1-) Being unable to QUITE believe that I could, in fact, have a candy bar whenever I wanted one. It was a rare and limited thing and the opportunity might never present itself again. Even if I bought one EVERY TIME I went into a gas station or store, it might NEVER happen again. This is obviously ridiculous but my subconscious sure believed it.
2-) It was a signal - whether impulse purchase or existing in the house - that things are 'okay' financially. Because the sugary crap was obviously the last thing on the priority list when buying food.
Then I got to unwire it, which was fun and what works from that point is going to vary. For some people it's 'never have it'. For me it's ALWAYS having it in the house and not running out.
That means it is not, in fact, a 'rare' thing. It's in the cupboard. I have had a pint of ice cream in my freezer since MARCH. Do I eat ice cream? Yes. Do I eat THAT ice cream? No. Because the SECOND I do not have ice cream (or candy or whatever) in the house my hindbrain is going to want it, want it now, and want all of it. Because now things aren't okay, in my head. Now we're broke and food insecure. Now there's a problem in my life and I NEED THE CANDY to prove I can have it. And in that frantic anxiety-ish-ness -- going to eat it.
Other people? Probably better off not having it at all because their reasons are going to be different. And their brains work differently.
Thats very interesting and helpful.Thank you for your response. I've always had food insecurity, but not the way you have. It was not financial with me it was more because of always trying to diet. I felt like I shouldn't/couldn't eat that candy bar and so every single time I did, it was "I'm never going to have this again so I'd better eat it all now." mentality. I think I still do that but the strange thing is, even KNOWING that, I still do it.3 -
Safari_Gal_ wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Some people are moderators and some abstainers. (Additionally, many of us can moderate some foods but have found we have certain triggers foods from which we should simply abstain.)
"
👆🏻This 💯 percent.
It makes sense. I can easily eat 10 potato chips, no problem. Put the bag away and don't think about it again for a long time, if at all. I just can't do that with sugar.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Some people are moderators and some abstainers. (Additionally, many of us can moderate some foods but have found we have certain triggers foods from which we should simply abstain.)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-happiness-project/201210/are-you-abstainer-or-moderator
"...When dealing with temptation, I often see the advice, “Be moderate. Don’t have ice cream every night, but if you try to deny yourself altogether, you’ll fall off the wagon. Allow yourself to have the occasional treat, it will help you stick to your plan.”
I’ve come to believe that this is good advice for some people: the “moderators.” They do better when they avoid absolutes and strict rules.
For a long time, I kept trying this strategy of moderation–and failing. Then I read a line from Samuel Johnson, who said, when someone offered him wine: “Abstinence is as easy to me as temperance would be difficult.”
Aha! Like Dr. Johnson, I’m an “abstainer.”
I find it far easier to give something up altogether than to indulge moderately. When I admitted to myself that I was eating my favorite frozen yogurt treat very often–two and even three times a day–I gave it up cold turkey. That was far easier for me to do than to eat it twice a week. If I try to be moderate, I exhaust myself debating, “Today, tomorrow?” “Does this time ‘count?’” “Don’t I deserve this?” etc. If I never do something, it requires no self-control for me; if I do something sometimes, it requires enormous self-control."
I'm familiar with Gretchen Rubin. I've heard of her theory on moderators vs abstainers before. I went back just now and read the article you linked here. In it, she has two descriptors for moderators and and two for abstainers. I answered yes to one of each. So I guess I'm both, lol.2 -
I think it's possible that people can begin as an abstainer and then become a moderator, or even waffle in between the two depending on their life circumstances.
I have so much candy in this house and (no joke) 8 boxes of Girl Scout cookies. I like both of these, although honestly would much rather have a bakery or homemade cookie than Girl Scout cookies, so usually don't even care to eat them. I allow myself maybe 1-2 pieces of candy a day, and I don't think about it at other times of the day. However, if there is a bakery or homemade cake or brownies, it's harder for me to moderate those. If something is stressing me out, I may start to eat too much of those...or even if something isn't particularly stressing me out. Something about those particular taste combinations are harder for me to control and have 'just a small piece."
I am not sure if it's certain food/flavor combinations that trigger one person's ability to moderate intake of certain foods, or impulse control in general. I think it could be a combination of the two. Most people who know me would not consider me an impulsive person at all, but there are certain instances (road rage, for example) when I let my emotions get the better of me and I act without thinking. However, there may be certain food/flavor combinations (especially when associated with positve and/or negative memories and emotions) that trigger something in us. Maybe it triggers a dopamine release, and for whatever reason, some people may be craving more of that and have a harder time consciously controlling it.
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That's very interesting and helpful.Thank you for your response. I've always had food insecurity, but not the way you have. It was not financial with me it was more because of always trying to diet. I felt like I shouldn't/couldn't eat that candy bar and so every single time I did, it was "I'm never going to have this again so I'd better eat it all now." mentality. I think I still do that but the strange thing is, even KNOWING that, I still do it.
It's definitely strange, but same. No amount of 'THERE WILL ALWAYS BE REESE'S CUPS!' logic worked/has worked for me. I'm not going to claim to have it all worked out now. What worked for me would be the worst idea ever for someone else.
But what has worked and is still working is having the food in the house, and saying "I can have that if I want it, whenever I want it" Because then there is no... window of opportunity. I can have all of it, some of it, none of it. I can have it today, tomorrow, today and tomorrow. I can have it next week. Because it is ALWAYS there, it's lost a lot of power over me. It isn't a treat, it isn't an opportunity, it isn't a potentially last hurrah. It's just another food in my cabinet (and kind of a security blanket).
I'm going to log it no matter what, and there are DEFINITELY days I've eaten way more if it than I ideally should've, especially early on. Once my brain adjusted to 'it's here, you can have it if you want' and the bulk of my diet changed around the 'treat/special' stuff, though? An astonishingly high number of days I go 'eh'. Like I just got up and ate a boiled egg instead of a brownie (never, ever, thought I'd see the day)
Brownies are there and have been (in the freezer). Boiled egg? We're having ice storms and can't go out. My husband and kids are home. THOSE might vanish and we're out of eggs now to make more. The brownie will still be there if I want it later -- and so I feel less need to eat it.
TL:DR: BRAINS ARE WEIRD.10 -
wunderkindking wrote: »
That's very interesting and helpful.Thank you for your response. I've always had food insecurity, but not the way you have. It was not financial with me it was more because of always trying to diet. I felt like I shouldn't/couldn't eat that candy bar and so every single time I did, it was "I'm never going to have this again so I'd better eat it all now." mentality. I think I still do that but the strange thing is, even KNOWING that, I still do it.
It's definitely strange, but same. No amount of 'THERE WILL ALWAYS BE REESE'S CUPS!' logic worked/has worked for me. I'm not going to claim to have it all worked out now. What worked for me would be the worst idea ever for someone else.
But what has worked and is still working is having the food in the house, and saying "I can have that if I want it, whenever I want it" Because then there is no... window of opportunity. I can have all of it, some of it, none of it. I can have it today, tomorrow, today and tomorrow. I can have it next week. Because it is ALWAYS there, it's lost a lot of power over me. It isn't a treat, it isn't an opportunity, it isn't a potentially last hurrah. It's just another food in my cabinet (and kind of a security blanket).
I'm going to log it no matter what, and there are DEFINITELY days I've eaten way more if it than I ideally should've, especially early on. Once my brain adjusted to 'it's here, you can have it if you want' and the bulk of my diet changed around the 'treat/special' stuff, though? An astonishingly high number of days I go 'eh'. Like I just got up and ate a boiled egg instead of a brownie (never, ever, thought I'd see the day)
Brownies are there and have been (in the freezer). Boiled egg? We're having ice storms and can't go out. My husband and kids are home. THOSE might vanish and we're out of eggs now to make more. The brownie will still be there if I want it later -- and so I feel less need to eat it.
TL:DR: BRAINS ARE WEIRD.
I listen to a podcast called Weight Loss Made Real with Cookie Rosenblum. She talks a lot about exactly what you are saying. It's just food. Nothing special. You can have it anytime as long as you log it. I know that all logically, and I've even felt incredibly powerful and elated when I think about that at the moment and it takes the power of the food away. I totally see what you're saying. BUT... then Valentine's Day came. And my husband bought me A LOT of candy. I started off just counting out a few jelly beans (they're a particular weakness for me) and tracking them. All good. Then I just kept going in the kitchen for more. I ate way too many. The next day I was going to do better. I promised myself. Then I did it again. The next day I was going to do better. Then I did it for a THIRD day. To the point where i was just so sick and upset with myself. Then I threw the rest of the candy away and told myself I was going to stop sugar cold turkey because I OBVIOUSLY can't handle it and moderate it. So today is day two of that plan and I am hating life like this. I'm miserable. Not physically. Just emotionally and mentally. I pray some day I can get to the point of eating an egg when there are brownies around. I'm impressed to say the least.4 -
I think maybe the psychology tripping you up there is what you said about attempting to lose weight/always dieting creating the scarcity. There are other things that could be in play, but when you do the 'I promise to do better' thing it's kind of a sign that you're beating yourself up for it/think you did something wrong.
That's... a mindset that puts them off limit and creates scarcity mentality, but while the thing is there. "IT IS HERE BUT I CAN ONLY HAVE THREE THEN NO MORE" or 'IT IS HERE BUT I CAN'T/WON'T EAT IT'. It's a combination that is pretty freaking hard to win with.
So, basically, cold turkey might be the best option but work on the brain stuff and be kind to yourself, too. Weight loss at all is hard, and most of the hard is often the psychological stuff.2 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »I think it's possible that people can begin as an abstainer and then become a moderator, or even waffle in between the two depending on their life circumstances.
I have so much candy in this house and (no joke) 8 boxes of Girl Scout cookies. I like both of these, although honestly would much rather have a bakery or homemade cookie than Girl Scout cookies, so usually don't even care to eat them. I allow myself maybe 1-2 pieces of candy a day, and I don't think about it at other times of the day. However, if there is a bakery or homemade cake or brownies, it's harder for me to moderate those. If something is stressing me out, I may start to eat too much of those...or even if something isn't particularly stressing me out. Something about those particular taste combinations are harder for me to control and have 'just a small piece."
I am not sure if it's certain food/flavor combinations that trigger one person's ability to moderate intake of certain foods, or impulse control in general. I think it could be a combination of the two. Most people who know me would not consider me an impulsive person at all, but there are certain instances (road rage, for example) when I let my emotions get the better of me and I act without thinking. However, there may be certain food/flavor combinations (especially when associated with positive and/or negative memories and emotions) that trigger something in us. Maybe it triggers a dopamine release, and for whatever reason, some people may be craving more of that and have a harder time consciously controlling it.
There are certain things that are harder than others, I agree. You saying that you have one to two pieces a day (candy) and don't think about it otherwise makes me think about making a plan. I've never been one to plan food, even though I know so many weigh loss experts say to do just that. Maybe if I make a food plan for the day, and even write it down, I can put my one or two pieces of chocolate on it and it will sustain me. I can look forward to eating it and know that I can have it again to next day.4 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »I think it's possible that people can begin as an abstainer and then become a moderator, or even waffle in between the two depending on their life circumstances.
I have so much candy in this house and (no joke) 8 boxes of Girl Scout cookies. I like both of these, although honestly would much rather have a bakery or homemade cookie than Girl Scout cookies, so usually don't even care to eat them. I allow myself maybe 1-2 pieces of candy a day, and I don't think about it at other times of the day. However, if there is a bakery or homemade cake or brownies, it's harder for me to moderate those. If something is stressing me out, I may start to eat too much of those...or even if something isn't particularly stressing me out. Something about those particular taste combinations are harder for me to control and have 'just a small piece."
I am not sure if it's certain food/flavor combinations that trigger one person's ability to moderate intake of certain foods, or impulse control in general. I think it could be a combination of the two. Most people who know me would not consider me an impulsive person at all, but there are certain instances (road rage, for example) when I let my emotions get the better of me and I act without thinking. However, there may be certain food/flavor combinations (especially when associated with positive and/or negative memories and emotions) that trigger something in us. Maybe it triggers a dopamine release, and for whatever reason, some people may be craving more of that and have a harder time consciously controlling it.
There are certain things that are harder than others, I agree. You saying that you have one to two pieces a day (candy) and don't think about it otherwise makes me think about making a plan. I've never been one to plan food, even though I know so many weigh loss experts say to do just that. Maybe if I make a food plan for the day, and even write it down, I can put my one or two pieces of chocolate on it and it will sustain me. I can look forward to eating it and know that I can have it again to next day.
I wouldn't say I 100% plan out my meals, but sometimes it's just a general idea. I also plan on having a small piece of candy or sweet treat after my meals, depending on the amount I've eaten that day. Candy isn't currently a "trigger food" for me, though, so that also may be why it's easier. Although, I used to be able to devour some peanut butter M & M's or mini Cadbury eggs and eat way too many of those.
I have a love/hate relationship with planning in general. I don't really like to "plan," but feel much less anxious and in control of things when I do. I think it's the thought of "what if the plan didn't work" and learning to be flexible if it doesn't, too.1 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »
There are certain things that are harder than others, I agree. You saying that you have one to two pieces a day (candy) and don't think about it otherwise makes me think about making a plan. I've never been one to plan food, even though I know so many weigh loss experts say to do just that. Maybe if I make a food plan for the day, and even write it down, I can put my one or two pieces of chocolate on it and it will sustain me. I can look forward to eating it and know that I can have it again to next day.
To me planning is KEY for exactly the reasons you stated. I know I get my treat every day. I plan for it. It’s not cheating. I savor it and enjoy it, with zero guilt. And I know I get to pick another treat tomorrow. And I try to plan for a higher calorie treat once a week so it feels indulgent.3 -
wunderkindking wrote: »I think maybe the psychology tripping you up there is what you said about attempting to lose weight/always dieting creating the scarcity. There are other things that could be in play, but when you do the 'I promise to do better' thing it's kind of a sign that you're beating yourself up for it/think you did something wrong.
That's... a mindset that puts them off limit and creates scarcity mentality, but while the thing is there. "IT IS HERE BUT I CAN ONLY HAVE THREE THEN NO MORE" or 'IT IS HERE BUT I CAN'T/WON'T EAT IT'. It's a combination that is pretty freaking hard to win with.
So, basically, cold turkey might be the best option but work on the brain stuff and be kind to yourself, too. Weight loss at all is hard, and most of the hard is often the psychological stuff.
That's a really good point. I KNOW it's a mindset change that i need to make.
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I believe it's likely linked to certain behaviors you grew up with. I grew up with 2 brothers and a sister. If there was soda, or candy in the house, it usually wasn't much. Well I WANTED to make sure I at least got my share OR MORE if I could. This also lead to a bad habit I still have.................wolfing down my food. Rule was in my home that you couldn't have 2nds till you finished your first plate. With my dad and 2 brothers, I never took the chance so I learned how to eat really fast so I could have 2nds. And still today if we go out and eat, I'll finish way faster than my daughter and wife and end up sitting around for the next 30 minutes.
With sweets I'm pretty good.......................except with M&M's. Unless I put out a measured amount then put the bag away, I EASILY can kill the bag. And I usually buy the family size bag. And M&M's add up in calories quick. There have been many days I was over in cals on M&M days. I think there are just certain favorites that we tend to gorge on due to possible fear of losing it to someone else? Even though it's not true?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I believe it's likely linked to certain behaviors you grew up with. I grew up with 2 brothers and a sister. If there was soda, or candy in the house, it usually wasn't much. Well I WANTED to make sure I at least got my share OR MORE if I could. This also lead to a bad habit I still have.................wolfing down my food. Rule was in my home that you couldn't have 2nds till you finished your first plate. With my dad and 2 brothers, I never took the chance so I learned how to eat really fast so I could have 2nds. And still today if we go out and eat, I'll finish way faster than my daughter and wife and end up sitting around for the next 30 minutes.
With sweets I'm pretty good.......................except with M&M's. Unless I put out a measured amount then put the bag away, I EASILY can kill the bag. And I usually buy the family size bag. And M&M's add up in calories quick. There have been many days I was over in cals on M&M days. I think there are just certain favorites that we tend to gorge on due to possible fear of losing it to someone else? Even though it's not true?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That makes sense. Behaviors we've put in place as children totally can play a role in our adult lives. I completely believe that.
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I've been here 8 years and my thinking has changed on a lot of things. I'm basically able to moderate but as time goes on I slip a little more here...and then ...there. What I've found works for me is abstaining from sweets (not fruits) for a month or a little more, and just eating them on Sundays (pick a day, that works best for me). After this period I can go back to moderating, which I prefer.
So, I'd suggest that you try different approaches and see what works best for you. Everyone has their own key, so to speak. Aggressive dieting or cutting of certain foods is not something I agree with, because it can lead to binging. I wish you the best of luck and this thread gives you much to think about. Keep trying, you will find your way.2 -
its all psychological, and the reasons can be many. our minds are dangerous places.
for me, if I can fit it in my calories, anything is game. Even if I stray up to maintenance, I'm okay with that (as long as its occasionally or purposely planned, and not all the time lol. last week I had a back injury and ate at maintenance most days. This week without power and didn't log food at all until yesterday. truly, we ate out dinner (and some lunches) most days but both weeks I showed a loss on the scale. Which I thought weird, but also not going to question it LOL
that said, I have certain items I love, that I will not keep in the house. peanut butter cups, being my main nemesis. If I truly have been craving on for a long period (several days/ week), then I will go out and buy one and plan for it. i don't deny myself of it, but can not keep them, in any variety or quantity, in the house. i will eat them all. same for the nutter butter wafer cookies (not the hard cookies- i don't like those). If I have a package of those in the house, it will be gone that day or if I restrain myself.. the next day LOL. its an absolute no-go for me.
i do have sweets every day, in one form or another.
Some of us have trigger 'times' of day, too. I know I do. For me, its in bed at night after my husband goes to sleep. So that is generally the time of day that I save my cookies for LOL I know I'm going to want some, so I save it for that time, and only have as many as my calories allow for that day. sometimes 2. sometimes ummm 8. LOL Its actually a habit I think I am going to try to break in the next month. I know why I do it, and it has nothing to do with being hungry.0 -
This is a great thread. I find for me, if the cravings get so bad that I want to just eat something every day and know I will over indulge, I tell myself that I can have that treat later in the week on XX day. This gives me something to look forward to and I don't feel like I'm depriving myself. I looked at the article at the link that was posted, I'm definitely an abstainer as being a moderator doesn't work out so well for me. One cookie will turn into 5. I'd like to work on moving away from being an abstainer to being a moderator, but it's hard.1
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