Piggybacking off of the food addiction controversy post...

lemurcat2 wrote: »

The conflation of hedonic eating and binge eating disorder seems pretty wrong to me based on everything I've read about binge eating disorder (and also the conflation of hedonic eating and some addiction connection). People typically report it being about food that is available, related to stuffing feelings, and not especially pleasurable. (I acknowledge, of course, that outside of the BED context many people will call eating even 500 extra cals or having a couple of unplanned donuts or the like binges, and those things are typically driven by pleasure in eating, probably, even if they don't feel totally chosen in a mindful way. But I also think those things are incredibly common and more about being human and how humans interact with food than some kind of disorder or condition that needs to be diagnosed and labeled as if it were abnormal or unusual compared with what others experience.) I don't think hedonic eating is really something that's surprising -- food is tasty and we have likely evolved to be motivated by taste and pleasure and not just getting the exact cals we need (there's no reason for humans, evolutionally, to have clear "full" signals or find it difficult to eat tasty food even when they don't need the cals and most probably do not without training themselves to, if even then). People who seem to think there must be something wrong or "addiction" if it's easy to overeat always surprise me.

Anyway, I could be wrong, of course, but I'd like to hear thoughts from people who struggle with BED or have in the past, as well as how the hedonic focus relates to the treatment plans. As someone who struggled with alcohol addiction, the focus on it being about pleasure, specifically taste pleasure, seems incredibly off-base (I'll note again that I do think disorders related to compulsive excessive eating in various ways are likely at least addiction-like and it wouldn't bother me to classify them as "addictions" to the extent "addiction" even is a useful term).

I am a hedonic eater, but I think lots of people who haven't been obese or overweight are too, and for me losing weight wasn't so much about not being a hedonic eater or thinking eating for pleasure is bad, but addressing other issues with how I tended to eat/use food. In fact, I find associating hedonic eating with the most simple high cal low nutrient sugary type foods to be wrong as in many cases people most focused on the hedonic experience of eating have much more sophisticated palates (foodie types, people who will spend significant money to try different dishes or different restaurants, etc.) and what one actually craves is very much determined by what one eats. I'd guess that there's more obesity with people who eat quite mindlessly, and often foods they don't love (both of which used to be me, even though I wasn't as extreme as many) vs those who focus closely on the enjoyment of the food and pleasure of the experience. (I often get the feeling some of these food researchers who seem to think it's some big mystery why so many people are obese are people who are very much "food as fuel" types and find it weird that others eat foods for other reasons and find it easy to overeat, and thus that doing so must necessarily be pathologized.)

lemurcat2 wrote: »

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

It does suggest that the rise in obesity is that as a whole we're partaking in hedonistic eating more frequently vs. eating just because we're hungry and have nutrient and caloric needs we need to satisfy. These (overly) sweet, and/or highly processed, highly palatable foods that people partake in when eating for pleasure are so readily available now.

I think we clearly are eating just for pleasure, even when excess of calorie needs, more frequently now, but I don't think that has anything to do with addictiveness -- at least, it's quite easily explained through other more obvious causes and affects people who don't binge or think they have "addictive" responses to specific foods (or eating generally). The idea that one needs "addiction" so explain something like this is what I find odd -- food is easily available, really cheap, and around all the time in many cases, and cultural restrictions on when and what we eat have been largely erased for many. Mindless eating because something looks tasty is super easy, and yes, because of cost and ease and availability it's often highly processed dessert or snack foods or restaurant delivery stuff or fast food, etc., although hardly limited to that.

Where I would strongly disagree is the idea that such foods, and specifically "(overly) sweet, and/or highly processed, highly palatable foods" are the main things that people, given their druthers, would eat for pleasure or find the most pleasurable. They are easily available. Personally, even when I was gaining that type of stuff didn't particularly attract me or give me pleasure vs other kinds of foods (and I adore food). It is often easily available, but once I started forcing myself to think about calories that stuff dropped out since it wasn't even stuff I liked all that much. It was just usually there (there meaning my office).

At first my bingeing started in response to a very restrictive diet, then in my late teens/early 20's it became about that and self-soothing. I would buy food just to binge--although I think I told myself it wasn't for that purpose. The foods I would binge on were always foods that tasted good to me, even if they weren't high quality or fancy (dry cereal and trail mix were a few of mine). Once I started, it was like the "off switch" had disappeared, almost as if in a trance-like state. Even though I felt sick as I was eating, I was just using the food to numb whatever was bothering me. And at that point, it definitely wasn't about taste anymore. Most times, I didn't even really know what was bothering me, but even the fact that I was bingeing and felt "out of control" made me seem to go off the rails with bingeing even more, if that makes sense. I hid food in my room, stole roomate's food, etc. I think the link to hedonistic eating is that those with BED will choose foods to binge out that do taste good and bring some pleasure initially, even if the food isn't all that high quality. I believe that's the argument for why someone with this disorder could binge on cookies, but not carrots (unless for some reason they find carrots highly pleasurable).

See, this to me seems more like eating as a process addiction to the extent it is an addiction, and not that it's about hedonism or driven by specific foods tasting so good. It's just of course you eat foods you like best when wanting to eat (or ones you like that are easily available and not too expensive). When I drank to excess (and when I emotionally ate/ate to self-soothe, which for me wasn't entirely like the relationship I had with alcohol but had some connections and I think it could be for some), I would generally choose drinks I liked (or food I liked), but I don't think the issue was I just loved the taste of those items so much. With booze specifically, I liked wine, but was picky about what I liked (being an oenophile is a good way to pretend you aren't a drunk for a while), and I would typically choose wines I liked and not drink wines I thought were unpleasant or, say, rum, which I did not like. But that doesn't mean the problem related to the wine just tasting too darn good or me just having an overly developed appreciation and love for the taste of wine. I was no more hedonistic when it came to enjoying the taste than plenty of people who weren't drinking in a dysfunctional manner. I was drinking for the effect, largely self-medicating in some ways, among other things. And absolutely by the end (heck, by the middle) it wasn't even enjoyable at all, and it was a form of self-harm, as alistairsmom said about binging (and although I didn't have the same issues with food, even getting to be quite obese, I get that too--I would definitely at times eat beyond what I really wanted since I didn't want it to end due to the other benefits I was getting in the moment from eating).

lemurcat2 wrote: »

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

I wanted to point out that the article didn't mention food addiction or claim certain foods were "addictive." It says that that sweet foods,especially, "flood the brain with dopamine" and once triggered, "may seek them out for the pleasure they bring." It doesn't go so far as to call it "addictive," though.

I was making assumptions based on the title of the thread and how you associated with the other, so apologies if I misunderstood. (The article seemed to be pushing that way too, by suggesting we need to focus on specific fods to explain something that seems to me easy to explain without assuming that somehow cheap, easily available, highly processed foods are somehow far more "hedonistic" and different in their effect than the incredibly delicious foods humans have been making forever.)

Re the idea that sweet foods are a special case (are you suggesting we should single out "sugar" as the issue vs talking about food disorders more broadly?), it's simply not true, and tons of studies support this,that it's specifically sweet foods that do that -- and again foods that are merely sweet are less likely to be issues (see apples) than combinations -- pizza, fat and sugar, fat and salt, etc., from everything I've seen measuring the supposed "addictiveness" of foods.

I find it interesting that you seem to be pushing the "it's something specific about these foods" -- again, unless I am misunderstanding you, and I realize I might be -- when the alternative explanation for at least part of the out of control feeling is usually a reaction to a restriction pattern. In other words, when one understands one cannot have something, it is not uncommon to lose control when one does (the must eat my fill because this is my last chance for a while kind of thing). This is because you yourself say you understand your binging to be connected to restriction, at least at the beginning.

I also think -- and here I will draw in part on my own experience -- that when particular foods or eating behaviors get associated with emotional needs (anxiety, self soothing, being able to blot out or postpone scary feelings), feeling out of control is also not uncommon. I don't really like a lot of the supermarket type sweets, so for me those things weren't related to sweet foods (or fast food, for that matter), but that doesn't make it less of a real thing or different in kind. I am sure what one preferences or has learned to associate with this type of thing ends up being what one gravitates too, but that doesn't mean specific foods CAUSE it or, especially, that it is specifically caused by sugar (which again it seems to me is what you are maybe suggesting).

What's interesting, though, is that when I first started bingeing at age 15 due the extreme dieting, I had all kinds of snack foods at my parents' house from which I could choose. (Lucky me, I was the only one with the "weight problem" in our family). There were all kinds of potato chips, snack cakes, and cookies, but I almost always chose cereal; specifically, granola. When I lived on my own with a roommate, I would get my binge foods from the grocery store. I could've just as easily chosen grapes, carrots, or even a can of soup or chips. However, I always gravitated towards certain foods (sweet). When I started eating these foods, I don't think I consciously acknowledged I was going to binge, although I knew they were my "binge foods." I would start eating because they tasted good, but then it switched from just overeating because it tasted good to me to eating to numb--getting into that almost trance-like state. Once I got there, ironically the food I ate didn't matter so much as it wasn't for pleasure anymore, and by that point I was probably feeling sick.

I suspect it's common to have foods one gravitates to or has learned to find extra comforting. I would just disagree that it's something caused by, say, granola or the sweet foods you later bought vs a type of thing that could be associated with a wide variety of foods depending on the circumstances, person, history of the behavior and taste preferences, among many other things. And I would reject the idea that it's about love of food or being more hedonistic with food.

I also think I've had anxiety and depression or tendencies towards that for longer than expected, so that combined with possible other factors (extreme dieting) led to the bingeing.

This bit, to me, sounds quite likely. It's something similar for me, although I didn't specifically do anything I would have described as binging with food (I did overeat quite a bit for emotional reasons or to address anxiety). I think I'm super lucky that although I thought I was fat growing up (I wasn't), I never actually tried dieting until I was in my 30s (and by that point into the obese category) and I happened to start with a pretty balanced approach, so I never got the bad effects of dieting culture or restricting in an extreme way (I did from a health approach at one point, but that was more about food snobbery than real anxiety about eating foods I thought were less healthy, even if couched in a health/eating "real food" only context, and I didn't crave foods other than those I ate, I just found I could easily eat that way and overeat, since the food was of course tasty).

chocolate_owl wrote: »

ahoy_m8 wrote: »

So back to the thread title, how do you all relate behavior addiction to a compulsive disorder? Is it just a matter of degree?

Addiction and compulsive disorders have somewhat different underlying motives. Addiction is driven by a need to derive pleasure or relieve pain or discomfort. Gambling better fits the addiction model than the compulsion model because the gambler is seeking out the pleasure/thrill of winning. Compulsive behavior is an insatiable urge, usually triggered by anxiety. Think of a person with OCD excessively washing their hands. This is not pleasurable, and there's not physical pain being relieved. It's easy to see how eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia are compulsive disorders, but the hedonistic component of BED makes it a little blurrier IMO.

These behaviors are usually classified differently because they're treated differently. CBT is used for both, but an addict might need adventure therapy (i.e. replace your drug high with a physical accomplishment high), whereas compulsive disorders respond better to exposure therapy (the patient imagines what will happen if they don't do their compulsive behavior). Drugs for an addict are might be things specific to their drug of choice, while compulsive disorders are often rooted in anxiety and can be treated with anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medication.