What cardio machine can best emulate biking uphill?
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FiberousJ
Posts: 82 Member
I'm really into biking and over the last few days I've been biking up really long steep hills. And it doesn't get much more challenging than that. When you go up a steep hill, you really have to be engaged.
But I won't have the time to go to these hills every single day. I'm trying to figure out what a good supplement to this type of training is. I'm thinking the Stairmaster is similar, although it's a little bit harder on the joints. I love climbs, they keep your heart rate up, you can't just coast. A bike at the gym has never given me this type of challenge.
I would love to be able to emulate this type of tough cardio style, regularly. Welcoming suggestions.
But I won't have the time to go to these hills every single day. I'm trying to figure out what a good supplement to this type of training is. I'm thinking the Stairmaster is similar, although it's a little bit harder on the joints. I love climbs, they keep your heart rate up, you can't just coast. A bike at the gym has never given me this type of challenge.
I would love to be able to emulate this type of tough cardio style, regularly. Welcoming suggestions.
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Replies
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Indoor bikes have resistance knobs. Turn it up.3
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A bike. 🙂
When I was running, that helped my short and punchy uphills. Running fast is *kitten* hard, it forced me to spend a lot of time above threshold, basically gave me more matches to burn. In your case since the hills are longer, I'd be thinking tempo and threshold efforts for similar / sightly longer durations.
Rowing machine and swimming could work too.0 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »Indoor bikes have resistance knobs. Turn it up.
Most cyclists do significantly less intensity indoors and it feels harder to them. Sadly it's not the feeling hard that improves your fitness.
Gym bikes don't work that well for cyclists because the body position vis a vis the bike is different, more limited, and the bike doesn't move under you, so you can't engage all of the same muscles the same way. Air flow and cooling are a big deal and usually limit the intensity you can do indoors. The lack of inertia at the pedals feels unnatural, you have resistance at the top and bottom of the pedal stroke which doesn't happen outside, again affecting muscle use. There's also a mental thing. When you know you don't have to work as hard, it can be very difficult to motivate yourself in the moment to dig deep and bring the pain, vs on a hill outdoors where you have no choice; there comes a point where if you go any slower you'll fall over sideways.
Here's more info about this.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/adjusting-your-functional-threshold-power-for-indoor-riding/#
https://www.roadbikerider.com/indoor-vs-outdoor-ftp-numbers/2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »A bike. 🙂
When I was running, that helped my short and punchy uphills. Running fast is *kitten* hard, it forced me to spend a lot of time above threshold, basically gave me more matches to burn. In your case since the hills are longer, I'd be thinking tempo and threshold efforts for similar / sightly longer durations.
Rowing machine and swimming could work too.
Thanks. Swimming is good, but I think of that as more interval training and it's limited to the length of the pool.
Now for some reason, I've tried the rowing machine before and have never gotten a good workout on it. It's not that easy to go intense with it.0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »Indoor bikes have resistance knobs. Turn it up.
Most cyclists do significantly less intensity indoors and it feels harder to them. Sadly it's not the feeling hard that improves your fitness.
Gym bikes don't work that well for cyclists because the body position vis a vis the bike is different, more limited, and the bike doesn't move under you, so you can't engage all of the same muscles the same way. Air flow and cooling are a big deal and usually limit the intensity you can do indoors. The lack of inertia at the pedals feels unnatural, you have resistance at the top and bottom of the pedal stroke which doesn't happen outside, again affecting muscle use. There's also a mental thing. When you know you don't have to work as hard, it can be very difficult to motivate yourself in the moment to dig deep and bring the pain, vs on a hill outdoors where you have no choice; there comes a point where if you go any slower you'll fall over sideways.
Here's more info about this.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/adjusting-your-functional-threshold-power-for-indoor-riding/#
https://www.roadbikerider.com/indoor-vs-outdoor-ftp-numbers/
I hear what you're saying. If I go too slow I will fall over. There's no choice but to push! Yup, when the machine gives you the ability to coast, it can be so hard not to! But I do like his suggestion. I might give it a try. It won't simulate a bike outside, but I'm curious what will happen if I turn up the resistance and just try to get in a rhythm.0 -
If riding indoors, whether on my tri bike or on a spin bike, the best way for me to get to my highest level of intensity is in a group setting. This may not be practical for you, but there's great motivation in a group spin. At several indoor cycling studios (1 spin, 1 "bring your own" bike) I've taken classes where each cyclist's power output is displayed on a large screen in front of the room. I'm never able to push to that level of sustained intensity when riding solo at home. So maybe an occasional spin or indoor cycling class would give you the extra level of intensity you're after.0
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I have an "Assault" style bike. When you just ride with your legs, it feels like riding up a hill. They are extremely hard to pedal just the legs at a high cadence. Great leg workout.
Rogue Echo would be my choice of Assault Bikes. Others are the Schwinn AD Pro (the one I have) and Xebex. There are a few more, but I forget the names. Rogue Echo is fast becoming the name to beat.
Nothing I've tried except the rower and the Assault Bike (or SkiErg) work you as hard. One minute, all out, on an Assault Bike will wipe you out for a while.
There is a reason that every Cross Fit Gym has these three machines. There's a guy up in Canada that I know, he has a website called GarageAthlete. He has online training and some of the athletes he trains are world class athletes (many professional athletes). Ridiculous intensity, nearly all of it on the C2 rower, Rogue Echo and the SkiErg (a Concept2 machine).
I've done spin classes, trail runs, half marathons, "boot camp" classes, Stairmaster (I did this for warmup). Nothing compares to those three machines for intensity unless you're doing something like Tabata with jump squats or similar.1 -
Honestly, just ride more hills. Nothing will simulate it well.
But to your question, anything that improves your overall strength and cardio will help... running, stationary bikes, lifting, etc. Cycling engages far more muscles than most people realize, so don't just focus on leg strength.0 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I have an "Assault" style bike. When you just ride with your legs, it feels like riding up a hill. They are extremely hard to pedal just the legs at a high cadence. Great leg workout.
Rogue Echo would be my choice of Assault Bikes. Others are the Schwinn AD Pro (the one I have) and Xebex. There are a few more, but I forget the names. Rogue Echo is fast becoming the name to beat.
Nothing I've tried except the rower and the Assault Bike (or SkiErg) work you as hard. One minute, all out, on an Assault Bike will wipe you out for a while.
There is a reason that every Cross Fit Gym has these three machines. There's a guy up in Canada that I know, he has a website called GarageAthlete. He has online training and some of the athletes he trains are world class athletes (many professional athletes). Ridiculous intensity, nearly all of it on the C2 rower, Rogue Echo and the SkiErg (a Concept2 machine).
I've done spin classes, trail runs, half marathons, "boot camp" classes, Stairmaster (I did this for warmup). Nothing compares to those three machines for intensity unless you're doing something like Tabata with jump squats or similar.
I'll second the Rogue Echo bike.0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »A bike. 🙂
When I was running, that helped my short and punchy uphills. Running fast is *kitten* hard, it forced me to spend a lot of time above threshold, basically gave me more matches to burn. In your case since the hills are longer, I'd be thinking tempo and threshold efforts for similar / sightly longer durations.
Rowing machine and swimming could work too.
Thanks. Swimming is good, but I think of that as more interval training and it's limited to the length of the pool.
Now for some reason, I've tried the rowing machine before and have never gotten a good workout on it. It's not that easy to go intense with it.
If you're talking about a Concept 2 rowing machine (or similar style, like Waterrower, Hydrow, etc.), that's almost certainly a technique question.
I'm not making an attack when I say that: Some exercise machines are intuitive, rowing machines are not. They don't have a resistance setting (they have what amounts to a "boat feel" adjustment, that many mistake as "resistance"). You get a harder workout by putting more energy into the flywheel (or equivalent). Each next increment of speed costs more effort, in a different way that most machines.
You need technique to get power into the flywheel, and increase power. Without adequate technique, it's just whipping up and down the slide with high strokes per minute, at a high damper setting (the boat feel adjustment). The workout intensity tops out quickly, when doing that. With adequate technique, it pretty much doesn't top out until the rower does. With decent technique, a rower can max out their heart rate pretty easily.
Not intuitive, hard to get good instruction. Even many gym trainers don't coach how to do it properly. (There as some good basic technique videos from outfits like Concept 2 and Dark Horse rowing, among others. It's still hard to get right without personal feedback - hard to do just by feel/self-assessment.)
But the intense workout is possible, for sure.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »A bike. 🙂
When I was running, that helped my short and punchy uphills. Running fast is *kitten* hard, it forced me to spend a lot of time above threshold, basically gave me more matches to burn. In your case since the hills are longer, I'd be thinking tempo and threshold efforts for similar / sightly longer durations.
Rowing machine and swimming could work too.
Thanks. Swimming is good, but I think of that as more interval training and it's limited to the length of the pool.
Now for some reason, I've tried the rowing machine before and have never gotten a good workout on it. It's not that easy to go intense with it.
Try thinking in terms of your maximum sustainable power over 10 or 20 minutes. Or a different time frame depending on the hills on your routes. Instead of how quickly can you get from one end of the pool to the other, how many laps can you do in X minutes?1 -
Interval training on an indoor bike with the hard intervals of roughly the duration of the hills you encounter on the roads.
Also think about the cadence range you will be using - if you are running out of gears and grinding up with low cadence outdoors either practice that cadence range or change your cassette.
It's not the same as real hills but definitely beneficial and as hard as you choose to make it.
Wahoo do a strange wheel riser system to simulate hills better (Kickr Climb - very expensive!).
Stairs work, find a tall building and again run up for roughly the desired duration, walk down for recovery.
Stairmaster is also a good choice.
There is a big crossover in rowing and cycling in term of muscles used (hence why many rowers make awesome cyclists e.g. Rebecca Romero). But do learn the technique as the rowing machine is both one of the best cardio machines and also perhaps the cardio machine used badly by the most people!!
The type of elliptical where you can adjust the height also work similar muscles to standing cycling.
Overall though to get better on hills ride a lot of hills and push hard.
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I'm sorry I didn't see you mentioned the rower earlier. Yeah, it's not an easy machine to "get" until you watch some videos online. Here's a video of Josh Dunkley Smith. He was an Olympic rower that decided he would go for the World Record before retiring. This isn't where he got it, but he did get it a few months later.
He averaged around 570 Watts for 5:38. That is insanity. And he did it barefoot. Each stroke is like deadlifting around 300 plus pounds and he's doing it 32 times a minute for 5 and a half minutes. Now, he's in such incredible shape (and so strong as well) that he didn't look that horrible after. After a 2K all out (and mine are MUCH slower than his), I have to be nearly scraped off the floor. It's nothing for me to do 100 floors on a Stairmaster (not to minimize the Stairmaster, but it's cakewalk compared to the rower done right).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyN9E417AIQ 2 -
Someone mentioned running hills. That's great too. Another low tech way to really add intensity is heavy Kettlebells. Also, plyo boxes are fantastic. You can do a lot with them (though if I had to do it over I'd buy a padded one). Plyo boxes are great because you can do a lot with them -- pushups with your feet up on them, jumps (they have 3 heights depending on which way you sit them), step ups with weights or just step ups, using them for bridges. One of my favorite workouts is simply pullups, pushups and using the plyo box for legs and doing sets of those quickly. You can get a nice plyo box for around $100 or so. Like this one.
https://www.amazon.com/BalanceFrom-Plyometric-Jumping-Exercise-Regular/dp/B07PXKYX5M/ref=asc_df_B07PXKYX5M?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80195684681794&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583795263014589&psc=10 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I'm sorry I didn't see you mentioned the rower earlier. Yeah, it's not an easy machine to "get" until you watch some videos online. Here's a video of Josh Dunkley Smith. He was an Olympic rower that decided he would go for the World Record before retiring. This isn't where he got it, but he did get it a few months later.
He averaged around 570 Watts for 5:38. That is insanity. And he did it barefoot. Each stroke is like deadlifting around 300 plus pounds and he's doing it 32 times a minute for 5 and a half minutes. Now, he's in such incredible shape (and so strong as well) that he didn't look that horrible after. After a 2K all out (and mine are MUCH slower than his), I have to be nearly scraped off the floor. It's nothing for me to do 100 floors on a Stairmaster (not to minimize the Stairmaster, but it's cakewalk compared to the rower done right).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyN9E417AIQ
Yea I really don't know why I never got a workout on a rower. I tried to do intervals too. I just couldn't work hard on it, it felt like I wasn't using any muscles and was just bouncing back and forth. Couldn't get my heart rate over 140 bpm. Is there a heavy resistance knob on it that I'm missing? That machine has stumped me.
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Honestly, just ride more hills. Nothing will simulate it well.
But to your question, anything that improves your overall strength and cardio will help... running, stationary bikes, lifting, etc. Cycling engages far more muscles than most people realize, so don't just focus on leg strength.
Yea that's a good point. I'm gonna ride more hills and then just get better at everything else. Yea cycling does work more than people realize. When I'm going up a long, steep hill I don't just feel it in my legs but my core and upper body too, because I have to hold myself up.0 -
I climb stairs at work. I've been walking about 20 flights a day lately.
I also do some upper body work at Pilates and with weights ... and I row on my Concept2.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I'm sorry I didn't see you mentioned the rower earlier. Yeah, it's not an easy machine to "get" until you watch some videos online. Here's a video of Josh Dunkley Smith. He was an Olympic rower that decided he would go for the World Record before retiring. This isn't where he got it, but he did get it a few months later.
He averaged around 570 Watts for 5:38. That is insanity. And he did it barefoot. Each stroke is like deadlifting around 300 plus pounds and he's doing it 32 times a minute for 5 and a half minutes. Now, he's in such incredible shape (and so strong as well) that he didn't look that horrible after. After a 2K all out (and mine are MUCH slower than his), I have to be nearly scraped off the floor. It's nothing for me to do 100 floors on a Stairmaster (not to minimize the Stairmaster, but it's cakewalk compared to the rower done right).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyN9E417AIQ
Yea I really don't know why I never got a workout on a rower. I tried to do intervals too. I just couldn't work hard on it, it felt like I wasn't using any muscles and was just bouncing back and forth. Couldn't get my heart rate over 140 bpm. Is there a heavy resistance knob on it that I'm missing? That machine has stumped me.
Ann above made a lot of good points. It's not an intuitive machine. You can slide back and forth on the rail and barely move the chain and won't have a good workout. But to have a solid cardio workout, you want to keep the Drag Factor (the air damper on the side, the only "resistance" a machine has) lower -- around a 110 to 120, which you can check with the PM (the computer on the machine) if you push some buttons and play around with it. There's one called "Other" and then "Display Drag Factor". Row a few strokes and see what it says. The dirtier a machine, the less drag it will have. Drag emulates a person weighing down a boat. It's meant to feel like rowing on water, which is a cardio workout, not a strength workout.
Ann mentioned Dark Horse Rowing. Also, Kassie Neimann is great online. Both have instructional videos of how to row. And it's not a one time and you're good type of thing. It's actually a constant work type of thing on form. You drive from the legs while engaging the abs and then use the abs/core to swing back and finish with the arms. It works 90% of your muscles if you have good form. And you shouldn't and don't need to up the Drag Factor (what most consider resistance) on the machine to have a great workout.
There are easier machines -- Endless Rope machines, the Rogue Echo, C2's SkiErg, Jacob's Ladder and a new climbing machine called CLIMBR. Other than the Stairmaster (also good), these are probably the most intensive and more intuitive than the rower.1
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