Learning a Vegetarian Diet

cwolfman13 wrote: »

autumn602 wrote: »

I will look into the flexitarian dieting. It exactly what I was looking for!

I am already on a marco diet which I count my fats, calories, carbs, sugars, etc. My calories are low, I have slowed down on gym life but in turn my weight has increased a bit. I have seen first hand what a plant base diet has done for others that have the same lifestyle I do and they maintain a lower body fat%.

I just need some better reading regarding this type of dieting. I have no intention of becoming 100% vegetarian, but I think if I have better understanding of it, I can custom it the way I want it.

Thank you for

I eat meat, but I am heavily plant based. Maintaining a lower BF% doesn't really have anything to do with being a vegetarian or omnivorous. That really all comes down to calories. The only correlation I can even think of here is that in general, vegetarians and vegans tend to be more purposefully diet aware than many omnivores because they're trying to eat in a very specific way vs "just eating"....but that doesn't really have anything to do with meat consumption in and of itself.

I have a lot of friends in and around and very involved in the fitness industry. Most of them are omnivorous and eat meat...and a lot of other healthy plant foods as well (they're health nuts). Every single one of them is lean...some of them with quite elite physiques. My trainer is a 45 year old retired professional athlete and he shovels chicken down his throat like no tomorrow and he's sub 10% BF.

AnnPT77 wrote: »

I've been vegetarian since 1974, when I was 18. There were fewer resources to learn about it then (few books, long before internet). I mostly used the "Small Planet" series of books, but their technical content has been outdated by subsequent research. On a bus between Kalamazoo MI and Grand Rapids MI, I decide to become vegetarian (adolescents, what can I say? 😉) - hard-stop conversion.

I think you're doing a smart thing keeping some meat in the mix. IMU, there's a gut-microbiome adaptation that can come with a full switch (my own digestive system experiences support this idea), and it can be convenient to keep meat in one's comfortable repertoire. Eating some every couple of weeks or every week is probably enough, based on a small study I saw about adaptation speed.

As far as nutrition goes, the source I'm about to link is vegan oriented, but the advice is IMO scientifically sound, reasonably concise, and applies to vegetarians in large part.

https://veganhealth.org/

Following the nutritional recommendations, and utilizing any number of good recipe sites, can be very workable. (I can't suggest recipe sites because after 46+ years of vegetarian cooking, I don't much use recipes. I just cook. I don't like most faux meats, so don't eat them; I don't find protein powder/bars tasty or satisfying, and don't need it to hit my (pretty strict) nutrition goals, so I don't use them. They're good options, though.)

If you want to see what I eat, you're welcome to send me a friend request if you wish. I'm a crummy MFP friend, but my diary is open to MFP friends, and I still log most days. (I'm now in maintenance, targeting 100g protein minimum, 50g fat minimum, usually 1850 calories + all exercise calories (so 2000-2400 gross most days), minimum 5, ideally 10+ 80g veggie/fruit servings daily). I answer questions on my page or via PM, about eating/cooking or pretty much anything.

As far as advice on converting, going gradually and paying attention to overall nutrition (macros, micros) is a good general plan. The biggest risk factors IMO are undernutrition, and too-fast ramp-up of high-fiber foods. The former is helped by gradually transitioning as you learn the nutritional ins and outs (food logging helps with this), the latter by being intentional about it. (Increasing fiber too fast can result in constipation, especially if fat intake is cut hard alongside in order to reduce calories.)

I, too, have my doubts about "the results are there", depending on what you mean.

Frankly, there's a lot of utter nonsense about vegetarianism/veganism on the web. There are way too many popularized sites (and so-called "documentaries") whose real goal is advocacy, and they're willing to misrepresent the science in service of their goals (or maybe they're starry-eyed and have deceived themselves through confirmation bias, I dunno).

I generally agree with Jane: There are sound ethical reasons to be vegetarian or vegan.

I'll put the rest more baldly than she did: I don't think (near-)exclusive plant-based eating is healthier in any way. What are the odds that it's optimally healthy to eat in a way that most human societies have *not* pursued, through many millennia of natural selection? It's highly improbable, if you ask me. Add to that, when eating 100% plant based, for best health it's necessary to pay a little extra attention to getting certain nutrients (not just protein, BTW). It's not anything like impossible, but it's a tiny manageable bit more difficult. Finally, when fully plant based, at least one essential nutrient *must* be supplemented. Would that be true of an optimal diet?

For sure, most people would be better off health-wise if they ate more plant foods. Surveys suggest that the average veggie/fruit intake is *way* below even mainstream recommendations (usually 5 daily servings is recommended), and some leading sources are starting to suggest that more than that is more desirable. That's without even getting into the nutritional value of whole grains, seeds, natural pro/pre-biotics, etc.

I also don't think plant-based eating has any inherent positive effect on weight loss or fat loss, either. I was thin, got fat, eventually became obese, stayed obese for decades (the last decade of which I was athletically very active BTW), and finally got thin again . . . all while vegetarian. Vegetarianism is a tangent to weight management, in my experience. (FWIW, I'm now at about 125 pounds at 5'5", probably around 22-23% BF like you, and not actively pursuing lower body fat. I'm not saying you shouldn't pursue lower body fat, either. It's a fine goal, even if it's not my goal. I have no indication that vegetarianism would help me get to lower body fat, nor hurt much either (though obviously some of the most calorie-efficient protein sources are meats and fish).)

Many people do find veggies/fruits, whole grains, etc., very filling, especially when converting from a less nutrient-dense way of eating. That effect can be helpful for weight management via satiation, certainly. (I think that effect explains a good bit of the "plant based diets are great for weight loss" mythology, actually.)

If athletic performance is an issue, there's no advantage there to a veg diet, either, IMO. Elite athletes have elite professional dietitians, trainers, coaches, etc., who are up to date on the latest scientific research, and who are advising the athletes on every possible way to squeeze out every tenth of a percent of performance improvement, because that's key at the elite level. (For some, low body fat is part of high performance, by the way.)

If vegetarianism/veganism were superior for athletic performance, those people would all be going that route. They aren't. (I've seen the dietary recommendations for the national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport, BTW.) Vegan/vegetarian eating is compatible with with athletic performance, but not even remotely required for it. The athletes in the "documentaries" who are advocating veganism generally did not follow a vegan diet all the way through their training and development, either, so they're not a full and fair case for the diet's superiority.

You're probably wondering why I'm being so bleepin' negative. It's because I think there are good reasons to be vegan or vegetarian, and it ticks me off to see some advocates spout nonsense and cherry-pick data in order to make converts. I think it makes all of us veg types look kind of stupid, frankly.

Sincere well-wishes on your vegetarian transition. Keep learning and experimenting, and you'll do just fine. It's very manageable, doable. Good luck!

jtechmart wrote: »

When I changed my diet and started eating right it was mostly vegan. Or plant based whole food to be precise. I'm now eating some protein based foods, but everything is organic, grass fed, pasture raised, etc... But, the diet started almost entirely plant based.

The way I started was eating lots of fruit. Probably over did it, but that is a great way to get started I think (unless you have issues with too much fruit).

Fruit tastes great and is easy to prepare. Just pick it up and eat it. Smoothies, fruit plates, juicing, etc... From there I experimented with different things. I do get bloated if I go too much plant based and need the protein now for lifting. But, if you start eating more fruit that can be a way to transition from your current diet to a more vegan based one. It's a game, so you learn and adjust over time.

AnnPT77 wrote: »

autumn602 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

I've been vegetarian since 1974, when I was 18. There were fewer resources to learn about it then (few books, long before internet). I mostly used the "Small Planet" series of books, but their technical content has been outdated by subsequent research. On a bus between Kalamazoo MI and Grand Rapids MI, I decide to become vegetarian (adolescents, what can I say? 😉) - hard-stop conversion.

I think you're doing a smart thing keeping some meat in the mix. IMU, there's a gut-microbiome adaptation that can come with a full switch (my own digestive system experiences support this idea), and it can be convenient to keep meat in one's comfortable repertoire. Eating some every couple of weeks or every week is probably enough, based on a small study I saw about adaptation speed.

As far as nutrition goes, the source I'm about to link is vegan oriented, but the advice is IMO scientifically sound, reasonably concise, and applies to vegetarians in large part.

https://veganhealth.org/

Following the nutritional recommendations, and utilizing any number of good recipe sites, can be very workable. (I can't suggest recipe sites because after 46+ years of vegetarian cooking, I don't much use recipes. I just cook. I don't like most faux meats, so don't eat them; I don't find protein powder/bars tasty or satisfying, and don't need it to hit my (pretty strict) nutrition goals, so I don't use them. They're good options, though.)

If you want to see what I eat, you're welcome to send me a friend request if you wish. I'm a crummy MFP friend, but my diary is open to MFP friends, and I still log most days. (I'm now in maintenance, targeting 100g protein minimum, 50g fat minimum, usually 1850 calories + all exercise calories (so 2000-2400 gross most days), minimum 5, ideally 10+ 80g veggie/fruit servings daily). I answer questions on my page or via PM, about eating/cooking or pretty much anything.

As far as advice on converting, going gradually and paying attention to overall nutrition (macros, micros) is a good general plan. The biggest risk factors IMO are undernutrition, and too-fast ramp-up of high-fiber foods. The former is helped by gradually transitioning as you learn the nutritional ins and outs (food logging helps with this), the latter by being intentional about it. (Increasing fiber too fast can result in constipation, especially if fat intake is cut hard alongside in order to reduce calories.)

I, too, have my doubts about "the results are there", depending on what you mean.

Frankly, there's a lot of utter nonsense about vegetarianism/veganism on the web. There are way too many popularized sites (and so-called "documentaries") whose real goal is advocacy, and they're willing to misrepresent the science in service of their goals (or maybe they're starry-eyed and have deceived themselves through confirmation bias, I dunno).

I generally agree with Jane: There are sound ethical reasons to be vegetarian or vegan.

I'll put the rest more baldly than she did: I don't think (near-)exclusive plant-based eating is healthier in any way. What are the odds that it's optimally healthy to eat in a way that most human societies have *not* pursued, through many millennia of natural selection? It's highly improbable, if you ask me. Add to that, when eating 100% plant based, for best health it's necessary to pay a little extra attention to getting certain nutrients (not just protein, BTW). It's not anything like impossible, but it's a tiny manageable bit more difficult. Finally, when fully plant based, at least one essential nutrient *must* be supplemented. Would that be true of an optimal diet?

For sure, most people would be better off health-wise if they ate more plant foods. Surveys suggest that the average veggie/fruit intake is *way* below even mainstream recommendations (usually 5 daily servings is recommended), and some leading sources are starting to suggest that more than that is more desirable. That's without even getting into the nutritional value of whole grains, seeds, natural pro/pre-biotics, etc.

I also don't think plant-based eating has any inherent positive effect on weight loss or fat loss, either. I was thin, got fat, eventually became obese, stayed obese for decades (the last decade of which I was athletically very active BTW), and finally got thin again . . . all while vegetarian. Vegetarianism is a tangent to weight management, in my experience. (FWIW, I'm now at about 125 pounds at 5'5", probably around 22-23% BF like you, and not actively pursuing lower body fat. I'm not saying you shouldn't pursue lower body fat, either. It's a fine goal, even if it's not my goal. I have no indication that vegetarianism would help me get to lower body fat, nor hurt much either (though obviously some of the most calorie-efficient protein sources are meats and fish).)

Many people do find veggies/fruits, whole grains, etc., very filling, especially when converting from a less nutrient-dense way of eating. That effect can be helpful for weight management via satiation, certainly. (I think that effect explains a good bit of the "plant based diets are great for weight loss" mythology, actually.)

If athletic performance is an issue, there's no advantage there to a veg diet, either, IMO. Elite athletes have elite professional dietitians, trainers, coaches, etc., who are up to date on the latest scientific research, and who are advising the athletes on every possible way to squeeze out every tenth of a percent of performance improvement, because that's key at the elite level. (For some, low body fat is part of high performance, by the way.)

If vegetarianism/veganism were superior for athletic performance, those people would all be going that route. They aren't. (I've seen the dietary recommendations for the national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport, BTW.) Vegan/vegetarian eating is compatible with with athletic performance, but not even remotely required for it. The athletes in the "documentaries" who are advocating veganism generally did not follow a vegan diet all the way through their training and development, either, so they're not a full and fair case for the diet's superiority.

You're probably wondering why I'm being so bleepin' negative. It's because I think there are good reasons to be vegan or vegetarian, and it ticks me off to see some advocates spout nonsense and cherry-pick data in order to make converts. I think it makes all of us veg types look kind of stupid, frankly.

Sincere well-wishes on your vegetarian transition. Keep learning and experimenting, and you'll do just fine. It's very manageable, doable. Good luck!

I also do not like faux meats, they really creep me out. I do find a lot of veggies, and fruit very fulfilling, but I must crave fats and that is where I get into meat in every meal I have. It seems like that is the biggest challenge is to find enough protein. I really do well on a high protein, low fat diet, I was doing 84mg of protein daily -which took work! . The more I was able to implement this the better I did at the gym. I had strength and stamina, and now I get really tired after a gym sess.

I really hope I am able to get back on track...

Thanks for your post!!!!

What's your calorie goal, if I may ask? Do you avoid soy, dairy, and/or gluten? Processed foods?

It's way easier on maintenance calories - most days I get over my 100g goal - but was a little lower during loss with fewer calories available. It was usually possible to get 80g+ even on 1400-1600 calories, ovo-lacto vegetarian sources. I do like dairy, and eat quite a lot of it - works fine with my Northern European genes. But I think I could get there strictly with plant-based sources. I don't eat all that many eggs, though I don't exclude them.

Things that help me, on the plant side: Tempeh, tofu (including things like tofu noodles, smoked tofu), legumes of all sorts (especially black beans, lentils), legume pasta (chickpea, red lentil - including chickpea "rice"), edamame, edamame pasta (chewier than regular pasta but good in stir fries & such). I don't eat a lot of seitan (just taste preference), but it's a high-protein source. On the dairy side, plain Greek nonfat yogurt is a staple, lowfat cottage cheese, other calorie-efficient cheeses. If you don't care for tofu but would eat soy, blending a soft tofu into soups and such is an option.

Strategy-wise, I try to get a main protein per meal (as omnivores do), but then choose sides and add-ins that contribute a small amount of protein, which adds up over the course of a day. Those smaller items tend to be less EAA-complete, but using lots of variety compensates for that somewhat. (The spreadsheet from the thread I linked above is useful for identifying veggies & fruits that are relatively higher protein - they're just a ways down the list from the meat/fish up top.) Some example add-ins I find helpful are miso, peanut butter (or almond butter) powder, nutritional yeast. (Peanut butter powder is great for a reduced-calorie peanut sauce for stir-fries and such.)

For crunch in a salad, I'd tend to add something like a small portion of (say) pumpkin seeds or toasted walnuts, then dress with vinegar (no added oil) or a yogurt-based homemade dressing. Hemp hearts or flaxseeds can also fit, as add-ins to salad, oatmeal or soup, for a little protein, fiber, healthy fats.

The MFP food diary is a helpful tool, when it comes to improving protein intake, IME. Log what you eat, notice things that are relatively high in calories but have little protein, think about whether you could cheerfully reduce or eliminate those foods to free calories, then spend those calories on something you like eating that has a little more protein. Repeat that process for a while, and protein intake will trend upward. The spreadsheet in that thread I linked is a good source for likeable foods that would be good protein sources.