Is it CICO or not?
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This has been an informative thread.3
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wunderkindking wrote: »ALSO those last pounds necessarily come at the end of a sustained weight loss program which means you've already been doing the thing a long time and, if you haven't been taking regular diet breaks, that comes with both psychological and physical repercussions.
For me it also is that my goal may be 120, but I like how I look at 125-130 just fine, so my motivation isn't what it was when I was 170.8 -
wunderkindking wrote: »ALSO those last pounds necessarily come at the end of a sustained weight loss program which means you've already been doing the thing a long time and, if you haven't been taking regular diet breaks, that comes with both psychological and physical repercussions.
For me it also is that my goal may be 120, but I like how I look at 125-130 just fine, so my motivation isn't what it was when I was 170.
This is also part of it. I don't look fantastic naked or anything but I'm utterly content with how I look (and so much more confident) hovering around 140. Combine that with lack of clear additional health benefits and it is SUPER hard to care.7 -
wunderkindking wrote: »ALSO those last pounds necessarily come at the end of a sustained weight loss program which means you've already been doing the thing a long time and, if you haven't been taking regular diet breaks, that comes with both psychological and physical repercussions.
For me it also is that my goal may be 120, but I like how I look at 125-130 just fine, so my motivation isn't what it was when I was 170.
That's exactly how it was for me. I was practically maintaining under the pretense of a diet break for a few months before I decided I was done with weight loss and I'm fine with my current weight. I ended up not losing "the last 10 pounds". That's also an option for those who can't be bothered.8 -
FWIW, I didn't find it hard to lose the last pounds down to BMI 20-21. I absolutely lost them *slower*, because I intentionally slowed my loss rate by increasing my calorie goal. I overshot my intended goal weight (BMI 20), and hit BMI 19.3, actually, then tweaked it back up again.
Like so many things about weight loss, I think it's going to be very individual whether the last pounds are *harder* to lose, or not. It's just opinion, but I think it's smarter to make the last pounds a much *slower* loss. Having solid logging practices probably makes slow loss happen more reliably, and water weight fluctuations can make things look weird for weeks at a time along the way when losing slowly, IME. Maybe that's "hard"?
I can't say that maintaining BMI 20-21 was hard, but I did let my weight drift up to around BMI 23-ish over about 4 years, then drifted it back down again intentionally over 12-15 months to the 20-21 BMI zone again. That was virtually painless. But along the way even my weight trending app thought I was gaining/maintaining for multi-weeks sometimes, when I was pretty sure I was losing slowly. Eventually, the expected loss showed up on the scale. 🤷♀️7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »scarlett_k wrote: »That "last n pounds/kilos are the hardest" trope always grates me because it's nonsensical. My initial goal is at the upper end of a healthy BMI as I picked an arbitrary round number when I was 50 kg heavier. However now I am close to my goal I am considering losing another 10 kg. So technically I'm currently on the supposedly morr difficult "last n pounds/kg" whilst also possibly not being. It hasn't been any harder losing the weight I've lost this year vs the weight I lost last year. If anything it's been easier because I have learned so much in the four years I've been doing this that I feel like this year I am finally doing it exactly right, have listened to my body and upped my calories when appropriate (I've been intermittently much more active as I've been doing a lot of manual labour).
It's really not nonsense though. As you move to the lower end of your BMI, accuracy becomes more important because your deficit is likely to be very small. You're lighter, so you're burning fewer calories even with activity. The combination can make it harder. There's also some psychological factors at play -- sometimes people find it harder to have consistency when they're working on vanity pounds. It can be harder to limit portions to lose weight when you mentally know you're just doing it for looks and not health. There were days when I struggled not to conclude "I already met the goal of being at a healthy weight, why am I doing this?"
This doesn't mean that individuals always struggle with it, but as someone at the lower end of my BMI, I would say getting from overweight to normal weight was much easier than getting from normal weight to lower end of normal (but still worth it for me personally).
See that makes more sense although I guess it remains for me to experience and eat my words (how many calories would that be?
) but that is not the thing that I see repeated over and over on these forums. It's always just "the last n pounds are the hardest" or words to that effect. Which *is* nonsense without any additional information. How anyone is supposed to extrapolate these details when people just repeat the same thing without any context is beyond me. People don't say "the last 10 pounds are the hardest. Oh no not THOSE last 10 lbs, the OTHER 10lbs after you've reached your goal and decide to lose more, duh". 5 -
scarlett_k wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »scarlett_k wrote: »That "last n pounds/kilos are the hardest" trope always grates me because it's nonsensical. My initial goal is at the upper end of a healthy BMI as I picked an arbitrary round number when I was 50 kg heavier. However now I am close to my goal I am considering losing another 10 kg. So technically I'm currently on the supposedly morr difficult "last n pounds/kg" whilst also possibly not being. It hasn't been any harder losing the weight I've lost this year vs the weight I lost last year. If anything it's been easier because I have learned so much in the four years I've been doing this that I feel like this year I am finally doing it exactly right, have listened to my body and upped my calories when appropriate (I've been intermittently much more active as I've been doing a lot of manual labour).
It's really not nonsense though. As you move to the lower end of your BMI, accuracy becomes more important because your deficit is likely to be very small. You're lighter, so you're burning fewer calories even with activity. The combination can make it harder. There's also some psychological factors at play -- sometimes people find it harder to have consistency when they're working on vanity pounds. It can be harder to limit portions to lose weight when you mentally know you're just doing it for looks and not health. There were days when I struggled not to conclude "I already met the goal of being at a healthy weight, why am I doing this?"
This doesn't mean that individuals always struggle with it, but as someone at the lower end of my BMI, I would say getting from overweight to normal weight was much easier than getting from normal weight to lower end of normal (but still worth it for me personally).
See that makes more sense although I guess it remains for me to experience and eat my words (how many calories would that be?) but that is not the thing that I see repeated over and over on these forums. It's always just "the last n pounds are the hardest" or words to that effect. Which *is* nonsense without any additional information. How anyone is supposed to extrapolate these details when people just repeat the same thing without any context is beyond me. People don't say "the last 10 pounds are the hardest. Oh no not THOSE last 10 lbs, the OTHER 10lbs after you've reached your goal and decide to lose more, duh".
No, I agree . . . without the context it doesn't make much sense. Obviously your body doesn't know which are the actual LAST TEN POUNDS and make it harder.6 -
I'm one of those weird ones who did lose weight slowly going from a BMI of 23 to 21.7, but lost it pretty quickly going from 21.7 to 20.2. I slowly and deliberately lost about 8 pounds at an average rate of .5 lbs per week. I was up a few pounds (water weight), and then lost 12 pounds in about 6 weeks while on an elimination diet for food sensitivity. Granted, a good chunk was water weight/inflammation lost, but my CICO wasn't too different than what it was before starting. I may have been doing more "extra" snacking that was unaccounted for, but nowhere near the amount that would account for that rate of loss at that BMI. I have gone down at least a size, but because of the more rapid weight loss I know I lost a bit of muscle, which bums me out.0
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For me, the last 10 lbs. were not intentional. I lost about 30 lbs before I started on mfp (from 177 to 135). I mostly just wanted to maintain that loss, but was happy to lose a few more if possible. I started running just to see if I could and with the added exercise got down to 131. I maintained there, more or less for a couple of years. Then I began marathon training and my mileage went from 20 mpw to 40+. I lost another 10 lbs. I got used to that weight and have maintained it for several years. In order to do that though, I still have to maintain a high level of activity. When I'm traveling and not running 5+ miles a day, I always gain a few lbs. So, long story short, if you want to lose the last few lbs. one way to do it is to increase your activity level, provided you are willing and able to maintain that higher level. Otherwise you'll just regain the weight when you stop exercising.4
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This has been a very interesting discussion to read. What it sounds to me if I understand correctly is that your body will help answer where your weight should be. So if you start getting hungry more often, not just before meals, that’s a possible indicator that %BF is about where your body wants it, give or take, and then is a good time to consider the switch to maintenance?
Sorry for intruding, but I’ve been wondering if I have 1 or -1 or 5 or 7 pounds left to lose, so I’m very interested in this topic. Haven’t been hungry yet, probably sitting around high 20’s or a bit less in BF%, female, so that’d make sense.
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This has been a very interesting discussion to read. What it sounds to me if I understand correctly is that your body will help answer where your weight should be. So if you start getting hungry more often, not just before meals, that’s a possible indicator that %BF is about where your body wants it, give or take, and then is a good time to consider the switch to maintenance?
Sorry for intruding, but I’ve been wondering if I have 1 or -1 or 5 or 7 pounds left to lose, so I’m very interested in this topic. Haven’t been hungry yet, probably sitting around high 20’s or a bit less in BF%, female, so that’d make sense.
How do you know your body fat percentage? When I was talking about 20-21, I meant my BMI index number.
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm
I had a lot of hunger between 22-20 on the BMI scale when I was trying to eat at a deficit. Those are the numbers to which I was referring.
I've been at 20-21 for years and I'm able to maintain just fine at my weight, it's when I try to cut calories that the horse runs for the barn,
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How do you know you r body fat percentage? When I was talking about 20-21, I meant my BMI index number.
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm
I had a lot of hunger between 22-20 on the BMI scale. Those are the numbers to which I was referring.
I am guesstimating the %BF from pictures and body part measurements. BMI doesn’t work well for me (big bones so it overestimates).
Yes, I did see you were using BMI, but does it not measure that indirectly for the population average?
That’s extremely helpful. I will be on the lookout for horse running
…and just stop when it starts getting difficult (I’m fine with it if that happens any time from here forward, and that’s better than having some arbitrary number that means nothing as a goal) 1 -
How do you know you r body fat percentage? When I was talking about 20-21, I meant my BMI index number.
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm
I had a lot of hunger between 22-20 on the BMI scale. Those are the numbers to which I was referring.
I am guesstimating the %BF from pictures and body part measurements. BMI doesn’t work well for me (big bones so it overestimates).
Yes, I did see you were using BMI, but does it not measure that indirectly for the population average?
No - BMI is not an indicator of body fat. One can be within the proper BMI ranges and still carry a good amount of body fat (if the person is not very muscular).5 -
This has been a very interesting discussion to read. What it sounds to me if I understand correctly is that your body will help answer where your weight should be. So if you start getting hungry more often, not just before meals, that’s a possible indicator that %BF is about where your body wants it, give or take, and then is a good time to consider the switch to maintenance?
First it would be great if everyone was that great at reading the body's indicators for hungry or not - most are on MFP trying to lose because they are not, and it's really a foreign language that if you don't know, you can easily misread.
Second the body doesn't give indicators anyway regarding healthy weight or BF% levels in the sense of reading them.
Longer term health indicators being bad when BF% has been higher for long periods of time sure, but that again is using brain not stomach to know that.
Now, the body can get to point it feels threatened with level of weight and body fat and you'll have a fight on your hands attempting to keep losing as it adapts.
Sadly the other direction has a little initial adapting but then it's ready to settle in and add fat.
Several hormones can make you feel hungry that don't have any bearing on current levels of say body fat being healthy or not, but rather the change from prior level and it may not even be a healthy level yet.4 -
Heybales and ccrdragon,
You both make very good points, and I thank both of you for taking the time to respond. I’ve got a BMI of 24 currently, FWIW, and more-than-average muscle.
It’s just such an inexact science…BMI is marginally helpful, #BF is largely a guess, and just arrgh trying to figure out where you should actually be! I know at 9lbs down from here I’m too skinny or at least look too skinny as my hip bones start to show…so that’s at least some kind of guideline.
Again, thank you for your responses and thank you for your help!1 -
Heybales and ccrdragon,
You both make very good points, and I thank both of you for taking the time to respond. I’ve got a BMI of 24 currently, FWIW, and more-than-average muscle.
It’s just such an inexact science…BMI is marginally helpful, #BF is largely a guess, and just arrgh trying to figure out where you should actually be! I know at 9lbs down from here I’m too skinny or at least look too skinny as my hip bones start to show…so that’s at least some kind of guideline.
Again, thank you for your responses and thank you for your help!
FWIW, this is one way in which slowing loss rate way down, as I knew I was getting close to goal weight, was really helpful: I felt like it gave me more time to assess whether I'd reached where I wanted to be, with multiple criteria (how I felt, looked, appetite, calorie needs, etc.). That slow loss *may* also be enough less stress on the body, to be useful in other ways.
But IMO all of this stuff is really individual, a complicated interaction of individual physiology and psychology, habits and preferences.2 -
Thank you Ann…
The plan that I started out with is to lose down to a nice round number, which is 4lbs away and 5lbs over looking a bit too skinny. That will give me a 10lb range within which I both fit my clothes and am fine with myself. Two weeks ago, I added back a few hundred calories to try to slow the rate of descent, and I think I’ll do that again and see what happens.
I am back at a size I’d been hovering around for many years pre-COVID. I’m much more interested now in improving my diet and overall health and fitness.
Took me forever to write this, cause I was sorting all this out while taking on board everything you guys said….and realizing I might be being a bit obsessive about getting everything exactly right, when that’s not really the point.4 -
Thank you Ann…
The plan that I started out with is to lose down to a nice round number, which is 4lbs away and 5lbs over looking a bit too skinny. That will give me a 10lb range within which I both fit my clothes and am fine with myself. Two weeks ago, I added back a few hundred calories to try to slow the rate of descent, and I think I’ll do that again and see what happens.
I am back at a size I’d been hovering around for many years pre-COVID. I’m much more interested now in improving my diet and overall health and fitness.
Took me forever to write this, cause I was sorting all this out while taking on board everything you guys said….and realizing I might be being a bit obsessive about getting everything exactly right, when that’s not really the point.
That's a great insight!
Not sure if it's true for you, but sometimes people have a tendency, I think, to see these goal decisions as final, at least at first. But they're not. We can change our minds. We need not be perfect in some pure and eternal sense.
If a particular weight is too hard to maintain (has too low a calorie level, triggers hunger/cravings, whatever), we can decide to intentionally regain a managed amount, and maintain there instead; or add activity (daily life or exercise to earn more calories, or whatever). On the opposite side, we can hold at a particular weight for a while, decide we'd like to lose a bit more fat via calorie reduction, and do that.
Clearly, to reach where you are now, you've developed some decent skills with the tools of managing your bodyweight. If you want to at some future point, you can use those tools to lose or regain, as well as to maintain.
Your current plan, slowing down loss, sort of coasting into maintenance, focusing more on health and fitness: That sounds pretty smart, IMO.1
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