Clean bulking
Trenbaloney_
Posts: 9 Member
Is a 125 calorie surplus above maintenance calories too small of a surplus?
2
Replies
-
No... but it’s a slow rate and your estimate of your TDEE might not be accurate so it may not actually be a surplus. If after a few weeks (and it may take a few weeks to see a trend) you don’t appear to be gaining anything you may want to raise.
I use trendweight.com to work out my actual surplus.
125 calories is about 1lb/month so slow.1 -
This content has been removed.
-
What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
This content has been removed.
-
I'd start with something like an estimate from https://fitnessvolt.com/weight-gain-calculator/. The general recommendation is to aim to gain between 0.25-0.5% of your body weight per week.0
-
Trenbaloney_ wrote: »Is a 125 calorie surplus above maintenance calories too small of a surplus?
Depends. On what you consider to small.
About a pound a month gain if you had your calories dialed in absolutely perfectly(near impossible). I mean, yeah you could and see how you respond.
Personally, I wouldn't unless I decided to bulk starting at a higher by percentage. Which at my age/weight I'm not prone to do intentially as a "bulk".
1 -
Which for many seems like they have to EAT CLEAN to have a clean bulk when that's NOT THE CASE at all. Muscle hypertrophy is dependent on progressive overload, volume of training and ensuring you have enough calories and protein to rebuild. If one is getting too fat, it's because they are just overconsuming just like anyone else who gets overweight.Trenbaloney_ wrote: »What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I think the "clean" reference means a minimal amount of fat gain during a bulk while the "dirty" in a dirty bulk means a greater amount of fat gained
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Which for many seems like they have to EAT CLEAN to have a clean bulk when that's NOT THE CASE at all. Muscle hypertrophy is dependent on progressive overload, volume of training and ensuring you have enough calories and protein to rebuild. If one is getting too fat, it's because they are just overconsuming just like anyone else who gets overweight.Trenbaloney_ wrote: »What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I think the "clean" reference means a minimal amount of fat gain during a bulk while the "dirty" in a dirty bulk means a greater amount of fat gained
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hi ninerbuff,
I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?
0 -
Which for many seems like they have to EAT CLEAN to have a clean bulk when that's NOT THE CASE at all. Muscle hypertrophy is dependent on progressive overload, volume of training and ensuring you have enough calories and protein to rebuild. If one is getting too fat, it's because they are just overconsuming just like anyone else who gets overweight.Trenbaloney_ wrote: »What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I think the "clean" reference means a minimal amount of fat gain during a bulk while the "dirty" in a dirty bulk means a greater amount of fat gained
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You're preaching to the choir, dude. I already know this stuff, I just was wondering if a 125 calorie surplus above maintenance level was a bit too small of a surplus when bulking.... I want to minimize fat gain but still gain muscle, slow as that might be.
And what exactly is "eating clean?" In the general sense of the term, as in avoiding foods generally regarded as "dirty" i.e. ice cream, cookies, etc?
Sure the quality of nutrition one is consuming is important. But one can eat at maintenance caloric level, the nutritional intake including "dirty" foods, and still never gain an ounce of fat.
I get that when bulking, some people fall under a false illusion of being able to eat copious amounts of food and a lot of it being "junk," because hey, they're bulking so they get to do that, right? I used to completely botch attempted bulks by coming under this illusion and before I know it I'm just getting fat all over again from over-consuming calories and have to once again get back to cutting, putting me in a viscous yo-yo cycle.
Which... is why I wanna take it slow this time around. I want to take it slow, but I want to also make sure I'm not in too small of a surplus and end up "spinning the wheels" and wasting time.1 -
Hi ninerbuff,
I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?
You weren't addressing me, but I'm gonna answer anyway.
The answer is yes, dietary fat is more easily converted into body fat, but that won't happen unless you're in a calorie surplus. And even then things aren't as simple as "don't eat fat and you won't get fat". You need some fat for proper hormone function, and a lot of people find eating fat to be satiating and so may eat fewer calories overall when on high-fat diets. Plus your body can convert carbs, and probably even protein, to fat if you eat enough of either while in a calorie surplus.
Anyway, pretty decent summary on the topic here: https://examine.com/nutrition/eating-fat-make-you-fat/1 -
Hi ninerbuff,
I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?
You weren't addressing me, but I'm gonna answer anyway.
The answer is yes, dietary fat is more easily converted into body fat, but that won't happen unless you're in a calorie surplus. But things aren't as simple as "don't eat fat and you won't get fat". You need some fat for proper hormone function, and a lot of people find eating fat to be satiating and so may eat fewer calories overall when on high-fat diets. Plus your body can convert carbs, and probably even protein, to fat if you eat enough of either while in a calorie surplus.
Anyway, pretty decent summary on the topic here: https://examine.com/nutrition/eating-fat-make-you-fat/
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure it's well-documented by now that eating fat won't make you fat. Neither will eating sugar. Or carbs, or protein. A caloric surplus is what can make you fat.
I'd be willing to put my money where my mouth is and bet $1,000 that I wouldn't gain an ounce of fat even if I ate nothing but coconut oil everyday, as long as I didn't go over my caloric budget at maintenance level.1 -
TrenbaloneySandwich wrote: »Hi ninerbuff,
I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?
You weren't addressing me, but I'm gonna answer anyway.
The answer is yes, dietary fat is more easily converted into body fat, but that won't happen unless you're in a calorie surplus. But things aren't as simple as "don't eat fat and you won't get fat". You need some fat for proper hormone function, and a lot of people find eating fat to be satiating and so may eat fewer calories overall when on high-fat diets. Plus your body can convert carbs, and probably even protein, to fat if you eat enough of either while in a calorie surplus.
Anyway, pretty decent summary on the topic here: https://examine.com/nutrition/eating-fat-make-you-fat/
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure it's well-documented by now that eating fat won't make you fat. Neither will eating sugar. Or carbs, or protein. A caloric surplus is what can make you fat.
I'd be willing to put my money where my mouth is and bet $1,000 that I wouldn't gain an ounce of fat even if I ate nothing but coconut oil everyday, as long as I didn't go over my caloric budget at maintenance level.
I don’t think anyone doubts that.
My question was (as garyruns recognised), if you’re in a calorie surplus, does eating a higher fat diet result in a higher proportion of fat gain and lower proportion muscle when compared to a higher carb diet.0 -
Well dietary fat is usually and ESSENTIAL so it's continually needed to be consumed. But the reality is a CALORIE SURPLUS is what actually causes fat storage the most. Now be that dietary or saturated that is more convenient for that, I'm not exactly familiar with.
Which for many seems like they have to EAT CLEAN to have a clean bulk when that's NOT THE CASE at all. Muscle hypertrophy is dependent on progressive overload, volume of training and ensuring you have enough calories and protein to rebuild. If one is getting too fat, it's because they are just overconsuming just like anyone else who gets overweight.Trenbaloney_ wrote: »What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I think the "clean" reference means a minimal amount of fat gain during a bulk while the "dirty" in a dirty bulk means a greater amount of fat gained
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Hi ninerbuff,
I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
TrenbaloneySandwich wrote: »Hi ninerbuff,
I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?
You weren't addressing me, but I'm gonna answer anyway.
The answer is yes, dietary fat is more easily converted into body fat, but that won't happen unless you're in a calorie surplus. But things aren't as simple as "don't eat fat and you won't get fat". You need some fat for proper hormone function, and a lot of people find eating fat to be satiating and so may eat fewer calories overall when on high-fat diets. Plus your body can convert carbs, and probably even protein, to fat if you eat enough of either while in a calorie surplus.
Anyway, pretty decent summary on the topic here: https://examine.com/nutrition/eating-fat-make-you-fat/
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure it's well-documented by now that eating fat won't make you fat. Neither will eating sugar. Or carbs, or protein. A caloric surplus is what can make you fat.
I'd be willing to put my money where my mouth is and bet $1,000 that I wouldn't gain an ounce of fat even if I ate nothing but coconut oil everyday, as long as I didn't go over my caloric budget at maintenance level.
I don’t think anyone doubts that.
My question was (as garyruns recognised), if you’re in a calorie surplus, does eating a higher fat diet result in a higher proportion of fat gain and lower proportion muscle when compared to a higher carb diet.
Oh. Indeed I misunderstood the question. I'm just taking a guess and this is in no way science, but I would guess that it doesn't matter whether the surplus comes from fat or from carbs. But again, that's just a guess.0 -
try a 200 surplus and see how that goes.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
try a 200 surplus and see how that goes.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Gotcha 😉. I think I'll actually start at a 125 surplus and if the scale doesn't move, I'll gradually increase by increments of 25 until I'm at 200 ~ 250 surplus. Gonna take it sloooooow. I've been averaging a deficit for about 2.5 years now. Initial weight loss took I think 8 months, and since then I've botched bulks and had to go back to cutting all over again.3 -
TrenbaloneySandwich wrote: »try a 200 surplus and see how that goes.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Gotcha 😉. I think I'll actually start at a 125 surplus and if the scale doesn't move, I'll gradually increase by increments of 25 until I'm at 200 ~ 250 surplus. Gonna take it sloooooow. I've been averaging a deficit for about 2.5 years now. Initial weight loss took I think 8 months, and since then I've botched bulks and had to go back to cutting all over again.
You can try that, but it's very difficult, if not outright impossible, to have that much control over your calories. You can have 3 extra grams of fat in that chicken thigh, which you probably couldn't even tell was there and which is 27 calories and you've already blown your 25 calorie allowance. And labels on packaged foods are probably even worse. Or you can spend more time fidgeting one day and thus burning calories and again blow your 25 calorie allowance.
Personally, I wouldn't mess with calorie levels less than 5% of my maintenance. Anything less, in my opinion, is in the margin of error for food and your daily energy expenditure.
And, lastly, how long do you want to take to figure out your bulk calorie level? If you're trying to control your calories at a level of 25 per day, that's 175 calories a week which works out to about 19 grams of fat gain per week, assuming all of the surplus goes to fat, which it won't if you're lifting. That's 0.04 lbs of weight gain, per week, maximum. You can't possibly track your weight at that level of accuracy. There's just too much variation in your weight from things like water retention and variation in food transit times. Hell, my scale won't even show a difference in weight that small. It only has one decimal place. So it'd probably take you 4 to 5 weeks to notice anything on your scale, assuming you could control your calories accurately enough at a rate of change of 25 per day.5
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 431 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions