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Clean bulking

Trenbaloney_Trenbaloney_ Member Posts: 9 Member Member Posts: 9 Member
Is a 125 calorie surplus above maintenance calories too small of a surplus?

Replies

  • davew0000davew0000 Member Posts: 109 Member Member Posts: 109 Member
    No... but it’s a slow rate and your estimate of your TDEE might not be accurate so it may not actually be a surplus. If after a few weeks (and it may take a few weeks to see a trend) you don’t appear to be gaining anything you may want to raise.

    I use trendweight.com to work out my actual surplus.

    125 calories is about 1lb/month so slow.
  • ninerbuffninerbuff Member, Greeter Posts: 45,415 Member Member, Greeter Posts: 45,415 Member
    What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

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  • GaryRunsGaryRuns Member, Premium Posts: 449 Member Member, Premium Posts: 449 Member
    I'd start with something like an estimate from https://fitnessvolt.com/weight-gain-calculator/. The general recommendation is to aim to gain between 0.25-0.5% of your body weight per week.
  • ChieflrgChieflrg Member Posts: 8,909 Member Member Posts: 8,909 Member
    Is a 125 calorie surplus above maintenance calories too small of a surplus?

    Depends. On what you consider to small.

    About a pound a month gain if you had your calories dialed in absolutely perfectly(near impossible). I mean, yeah you could and see how you respond.

    Personally, I wouldn't unless I decided to bulk starting at a higher by percentage. Which at my age/weight I'm not prone to do intentially as a "bulk".

  • ninerbuffninerbuff Member, Greeter Posts: 45,415 Member Member, Greeter Posts: 45,415 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    I think the "clean" reference means a minimal amount of fat gain during a bulk while the "dirty" in a dirty bulk means a greater amount of fat gained
    Which for many seems like they have to EAT CLEAN to have a clean bulk when that's NOT THE CASE at all. Muscle hypertrophy is dependent on progressive overload, volume of training and ensuring you have enough calories and protein to rebuild. If one is getting too fat, it's because they are just overconsuming just like anyone else who gets overweight.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • davew0000davew0000 Member Posts: 109 Member Member Posts: 109 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    I think the "clean" reference means a minimal amount of fat gain during a bulk while the "dirty" in a dirty bulk means a greater amount of fat gained
    Which for many seems like they have to EAT CLEAN to have a clean bulk when that's NOT THE CASE at all. Muscle hypertrophy is dependent on progressive overload, volume of training and ensuring you have enough calories and protein to rebuild. If one is getting too fat, it's because they are just overconsuming just like anyone else who gets overweight.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png


    Hi ninerbuff,

    I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?

  • TrenbaloneySandwichTrenbaloneySandwich Member Posts: 6 Member Member Posts: 6 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    I think the "clean" reference means a minimal amount of fat gain during a bulk while the "dirty" in a dirty bulk means a greater amount of fat gained
    Which for many seems like they have to EAT CLEAN to have a clean bulk when that's NOT THE CASE at all. Muscle hypertrophy is dependent on progressive overload, volume of training and ensuring you have enough calories and protein to rebuild. If one is getting too fat, it's because they are just overconsuming just like anyone else who gets overweight.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    You're preaching to the choir, dude. I already know this stuff, I just was wondering if a 125 calorie surplus above maintenance level was a bit too small of a surplus when bulking.... I want to minimize fat gain but still gain muscle, slow as that might be.

    And what exactly is "eating clean?" In the general sense of the term, as in avoiding foods generally regarded as "dirty" i.e. ice cream, cookies, etc?

    Sure the quality of nutrition one is consuming is important. But one can eat at maintenance caloric level, the nutritional intake including "dirty" foods, and still never gain an ounce of fat.

    I get that when bulking, some people fall under a false illusion of being able to eat copious amounts of food and a lot of it being "junk," because hey, they're bulking so they get to do that, right? I used to completely botch attempted bulks by coming under this illusion and before I know it I'm just getting fat all over again from over-consuming calories and have to once again get back to cutting, putting me in a viscous yo-yo cycle.

    Which... is why I wanna take it slow this time around. I want to take it slow, but I want to also make sure I'm not in too small of a surplus and end up "spinning the wheels" and wasting time.
    edited June 11
  • GaryRunsGaryRuns Member, Premium Posts: 449 Member Member, Premium Posts: 449 Member
    davew0000 wrote: »
    Hi ninerbuff,

    I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?

    You weren't addressing me, but I'm gonna answer anyway. :p

    The answer is yes, dietary fat is more easily converted into body fat, but that won't happen unless you're in a calorie surplus. And even then things aren't as simple as "don't eat fat and you won't get fat". You need some fat for proper hormone function, and a lot of people find eating fat to be satiating and so may eat fewer calories overall when on high-fat diets. Plus your body can convert carbs, and probably even protein, to fat if you eat enough of either while in a calorie surplus.

    Anyway, pretty decent summary on the topic here: https://examine.com/nutrition/eating-fat-make-you-fat/
    edited June 11
  • TrenbaloneySandwichTrenbaloneySandwich Member Posts: 6 Member Member Posts: 6 Member
    GaryRuns wrote: »
    davew0000 wrote: »
    Hi ninerbuff,

    I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?

    You weren't addressing me, but I'm gonna answer anyway. :p

    The answer is yes, dietary fat is more easily converted into body fat, but that won't happen unless you're in a calorie surplus. But things aren't as simple as "don't eat fat and you won't get fat". You need some fat for proper hormone function, and a lot of people find eating fat to be satiating and so may eat fewer calories overall when on high-fat diets. Plus your body can convert carbs, and probably even protein, to fat if you eat enough of either while in a calorie surplus.

    Anyway, pretty decent summary on the topic here: https://examine.com/nutrition/eating-fat-make-you-fat/

    I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure it's well-documented by now that eating fat won't make you fat. Neither will eating sugar. Or carbs, or protein. A caloric surplus is what can make you fat.

    I'd be willing to put my money where my mouth is and bet $1,000 that I wouldn't gain an ounce of fat even if I ate nothing but coconut oil everyday, as long as I didn't go over my caloric budget at maintenance level.
    edited June 11
  • davew0000davew0000 Member Posts: 109 Member Member Posts: 109 Member
    GaryRuns wrote: »
    davew0000 wrote: »
    Hi ninerbuff,

    I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?

    You weren't addressing me, but I'm gonna answer anyway. :p

    The answer is yes, dietary fat is more easily converted into body fat, but that won't happen unless you're in a calorie surplus. But things aren't as simple as "don't eat fat and you won't get fat". You need some fat for proper hormone function, and a lot of people find eating fat to be satiating and so may eat fewer calories overall when on high-fat diets. Plus your body can convert carbs, and probably even protein, to fat if you eat enough of either while in a calorie surplus.

    Anyway, pretty decent summary on the topic here: https://examine.com/nutrition/eating-fat-make-you-fat/

    I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure it's well-documented by now that eating fat won't make you fat. Neither will eating sugar. Or carbs, or protein. A caloric surplus is what can make you fat.

    I'd be willing to put my money where my mouth is and bet $1,000 that I wouldn't gain an ounce of fat even if I ate nothing but coconut oil everyday, as long as I didn't go over my caloric budget at maintenance level.

    I don’t think anyone doubts that.

    My question was (as garyruns recognised), if you’re in a calorie surplus, does eating a higher fat diet result in a higher proportion of fat gain and lower proportion muscle when compared to a higher carb diet.
  • ninerbuffninerbuff Member, Greeter Posts: 45,415 Member Member, Greeter Posts: 45,415 Member
    davew0000 wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    What do you mean by "clean" bulking? Putting on muscle while keeping fat low? If that's the case then putting on a pound or less a month will be your option. And it's NOT going to be all muscle anyway. Whenever you attempt to put on muscle, you're going to gain some fat and vice versa when you lose weight. When you BULK that means you're putting on muscle and fat. So nothing really "clean" about it.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    I think the "clean" reference means a minimal amount of fat gain during a bulk while the "dirty" in a dirty bulk means a greater amount of fat gained
    Which for many seems like they have to EAT CLEAN to have a clean bulk when that's NOT THE CASE at all. Muscle hypertrophy is dependent on progressive overload, volume of training and ensuring you have enough calories and protein to rebuild. If one is getting too fat, it's because they are just overconsuming just like anyone else who gets overweight.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png


    Hi ninerbuff,

    I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?
    Well dietary fat is usually and ESSENTIAL so it's continually needed to be consumed. But the reality is a CALORIE SURPLUS is what actually causes fat storage the most. Now be that dietary or saturated that is more convenient for that, I'm not exactly familiar with.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • TrenbaloneySandwichTrenbaloneySandwich Member Posts: 6 Member Member Posts: 6 Member
    davew0000 wrote: »
    GaryRuns wrote: »
    davew0000 wrote: »
    Hi ninerbuff,

    I’ve heard it said that dietary fat is more easily stored as fat in the body as there’s no conversion. Not true?

    You weren't addressing me, but I'm gonna answer anyway. :p

    The answer is yes, dietary fat is more easily converted into body fat, but that won't happen unless you're in a calorie surplus. But things aren't as simple as "don't eat fat and you won't get fat". You need some fat for proper hormone function, and a lot of people find eating fat to be satiating and so may eat fewer calories overall when on high-fat diets. Plus your body can convert carbs, and probably even protein, to fat if you eat enough of either while in a calorie surplus.

    Anyway, pretty decent summary on the topic here: https://examine.com/nutrition/eating-fat-make-you-fat/

    I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure it's well-documented by now that eating fat won't make you fat. Neither will eating sugar. Or carbs, or protein. A caloric surplus is what can make you fat.

    I'd be willing to put my money where my mouth is and bet $1,000 that I wouldn't gain an ounce of fat even if I ate nothing but coconut oil everyday, as long as I didn't go over my caloric budget at maintenance level.

    I don’t think anyone doubts that.

    My question was (as garyruns recognised), if you’re in a calorie surplus, does eating a higher fat diet result in a higher proportion of fat gain and lower proportion muscle when compared to a higher carb diet.

    Oh. Indeed I misunderstood the question. I'm just taking a guess and this is in no way science, but I would guess that it doesn't matter whether the surplus comes from fat or from carbs. But again, that's just a guess.
    edited June 11
  • ninerbuffninerbuff Member, Greeter Posts: 45,415 Member Member, Greeter Posts: 45,415 Member
    try a 200 surplus and see how that goes.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png
  • TrenbaloneySandwichTrenbaloneySandwich Member Posts: 6 Member Member Posts: 6 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    try a 200 surplus and see how that goes.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    Gotcha 😉. I think I'll actually start at a 125 surplus and if the scale doesn't move, I'll gradually increase by increments of 25 until I'm at 200 ~ 250 surplus. Gonna take it sloooooow. I've been averaging a deficit for about 2.5 years now. Initial weight loss took I think 8 months, and since then I've botched bulks and had to go back to cutting all over again.
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