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Anyone else frustrated with the CICO mantra?
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janejellyroll wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
While the review in the ADA journal (which I think is different from an official ADA review) doesn't say Fung is a quack, lines like "Where this book will challenge some diabetes health care professionals is in its claims that all current evidence-based, conventional treatments are wrong; this assertion is clearly untrue, so skip that part" seem to make it clear that they have serious concerns with his approach.
And some people have had success with the approach.
Which is why I said “controversial” would be a better word than “quack”
Here come a bunch more disagree reacts.
I don't think anyone denies that people have had success with Fung's approach. The truth is that any eating style that creates weight loss tends to improve the chronic diseases associated with excess weight.
The issue is whether or not the people touting a particular diet are correct when they make claims that they've found the ONLY way to control weight.
Some people have also had success with John McDougall's high carbohydrate plant-based diet when it comes to chronic disease control and weight management, but this doesn't mean he's found the only way to control weight. To the extent that he (or Fung) make claims that weight control requires eating according to their plan, they're being quacks.
From what I know of Fung's plan, it's a healthy way to eat. It's just not (IMO) the ONLY healthy way to eat and that's where I think he crosses the line.
My original point was that calling Fung a “quack” was uncalled for.
And, sadly, lots of people think their way is the only way.
"Mendacious shyster" is better. Now let's do Mercola! 🙂
I like "flim flam man" and I'm doing my best to bring it back.
Can the flim flam man sell s'moreos?
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autobahn66 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »I try to put the point as delicately as possible, but there have been studies on “diet resistant” individuals using food laced with radioactive isotopes so that the exact amount of food taken in can be tracked. One such study found that obese people who claimed not to be able to lose weight through calorie restriction were reporting on average only 1/3 of their actual intake - and this is knowing that they were being observed!
People who are obese have had a lifetime of learning to lie to themselves and others about food and some of them have gotten so good at it that they don’t even know they are doing it. When someone says they weigh 250 lbs, work out six hours a day, and eat 1200 calories and haven’t lost a pound in six weeks, the overwhelming likelihood is dishonest logging. It’s either tell the truth or say nothing.lorib642 wrote:
"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1454084/
I found it. I will look for the one I mentioned with the different groups including dietitians under reporting. Got it. The dieticians were much closer but under"
With regard to the above:
1. This paper is weak
I went into reading this with an open mind. But the paper is completely useless in informing current practitioners with regard to dietary advice. Issues:
Sample enrolment: "The subject was enrolled in group 1 if the average reported daily caloric intake for seven subsequent consecutive days was less than 1200 kcal, with continued weight stability." They selected people on the basis of being crap at estimating calories. They didn't randomly sample people. They picked the ones that were bad at it.
If you look in detail at the results: the control group is also bad at estimating calories: (control 1700 vs 2390, test 1030 vs 2080). I would hypothesise that there was a broad distribution of struggling to accurately measure calories throughout the population, and through selection bias they have picked the worst of their population and published it
Sample size: n=10. Extrapolating anything in a population based on ten people is a terrible idea. Particularly something as complex as dietary habits.
Sample homogeneity: the test group is 9 women, 1 man. An ideal population would be an accurate cross section of society - impossible with 10 people. The age is quite high: a function of who gets referred, but weakening the generalisability of the study.
Case-control matching: The groups are not matched for very very basic things. Like thyroid disease. Seriously: how did it get published without matching for simple factors which are known to affect weight? There is no substantial mention of where people were in the midst of their thyroid treatment. (P.S. being euthyroid at the time of enrolment is not a sufficient control for this in my opinion, as all this means is a TSH in the normal range: who knows what the trajectory is or has been).
I could go on: I have issues with the psychometric evaluation and the causation assessment, with the reporting of the main finding, but not reporting minor findings.
The most fundamental issue is that this was done in 1992. The availability of dietary (particularly calorie) information now is so different that this study doesn't really inform how people manage these issues now. Which is what is relevant to current discussions and advice on weight management.
2. You've misrepresented the findings of this paper
Even taking for granted the findings of the paper, you've misreported the numbers and then ascribed exactly the incorrect explanation to why people struggled.
The 'diet resistant' group underestimated 50% of their actual calories, while the non-diet resistant group underestimated by approx 30%. So there is not such a massive difference in reporting between the groups.
But mainly you say obese people "lie", and that they are "dishonest" and they should "tell the truth". Each of these statements fundamentally opposes the statements of the authors: "Misreporting by the subjects in group 1 does not appear to be a facile deception, for several reasons." And they go on to list a few, but offer no real explanation as to what is actually going on (which I suspect is a combination of misperception, lack of knowledge and experience, and other psychological factors)
Your comment highlights a fundamental issue: bad science is interpreted badly to create a narrative where obese people have a fundamental flaw: they are dishonest. And this is the issue I have with CICO. CICO is absolute, and must be true according to the laws of the universe we live in, therefore any discrepancy is a lie in calories in or calories out. But a lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead. Obese people are a multitude, but don't (necessarily) deliberately mislead themselves or others, but rather have any one of a number of unhealthy relationships with food, up to and including an inability to assess calorie intake.
It does not take into account the fundamental aspects of humans, that all visual (and other sensory) information is processed and altered before being consciously analysed. We, as humans, are entirely incapable of perceiving an objective reality. It ignores that memory and understanding are fallible. It ignores that to have a degree of accuracy in counting calories (to comply with CICO) requires skill, rigour, and most importantly, time energy and motivation. In a vacuum, where there is infinite time, energy and motivation, CICO is perfect, and cannot fail. In real life, targeting of these personal resources to achieve a healthier lifestyle is personal and must be individualised and mutable over time to achieve goals.
I don't have any longer to spend on this post: I too am a scientist and have to get back to an experiment in a futile attempt to perceive objective reality...
Hey I agree calorie estimating can be hard. If you saw the other links even RDs have trouble. I found the link because someone else referred to it. But the people thought they were hopeless due to genetics and really they were undercounting.
I think that's the key point.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
While the review in the ADA journal (which I think is different from an official ADA review) doesn't say Fung is a quack, lines like "Where this book will challenge some diabetes health care professionals is in its claims that all current evidence-based, conventional treatments are wrong; this assertion is clearly untrue, so skip that part" seem to make it clear that they have serious concerns with his approach.
And some people have had success with the approach.
Which is why I said “controversial” would be a better word than “quack”
Here come a bunch more disagree reacts.
I don't think anyone denies that people have had success with Fung's approach. The truth is that any eating style that creates weight loss tends to improve the chronic diseases associated with excess weight.
The issue is whether or not the people touting a particular diet are correct when they make claims that they've found the ONLY way to control weight.
Some people have also had success with John McDougall's high carbohydrate plant-based diet when it comes to chronic disease control and weight management, but this doesn't mean he's found the only way to control weight. To the extent that he (or Fung) make claims that weight control requires eating according to their plan, they're being quacks.
From what I know of Fung's plan, it's a healthy way to eat. It's just not (IMO) the ONLY healthy way to eat and that's where I think he crosses the line.
My original point was that calling Fung a “quack” was uncalled for.
And, sadly, lots of people think their way is the only way.
"Mendacious shyster" is better. Now let's do Mercola! 🙂
I like "flim flam man" and I'm doing my best to bring it back.
Thing is, some people have success with his method. Unlike something like laetrile, which absolutely is quackery.1 -
clairesimpson4 wrote: »You hear it all the time on diet plans, from your doctor, etc. But it's apparent simplicity is both misleading and unhelpful.
Yes, CICO is true(ish, there are exceptions) But that's answering the wrong question. The question of why someone is overweight is, given that most dieters already know this, why do some people eat too much?
I'm a scientist and I hate this CICO mantra being thrown around like it's something we haven't heard before. Its unhelpful. We don't tell alcoholics that they are alcoholics because they drink too much booze. The answer to the obesity crisis lies in answering the real question.
No, most don't already know this. There are a whole lot of people who have absolutely no clue about how many calories they take in or how many they burn. Look at all the stupid fad diets out there - I don't think people would be so quick to jump on them if they truly understood CICO.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
While the review in the ADA journal (which I think is different from an official ADA review) doesn't say Fung is a quack, lines like "Where this book will challenge some diabetes health care professionals is in its claims that all current evidence-based, conventional treatments are wrong; this assertion is clearly untrue, so skip that part" seem to make it clear that they have serious concerns with his approach.
And some people have had success with the approach.
Which is why I said “controversial” would be a better word than “quack”
Here come a bunch more disagree reacts.
I don't think anyone denies that people have had success with Fung's approach. The truth is that any eating style that creates weight loss tends to improve the chronic diseases associated with excess weight.
The issue is whether or not the people touting a particular diet are correct when they make claims that they've found the ONLY way to control weight.
Some people have also had success with John McDougall's high carbohydrate plant-based diet when it comes to chronic disease control and weight management, but this doesn't mean he's found the only way to control weight. To the extent that he (or Fung) make claims that weight control requires eating according to their plan, they're being quacks.
From what I know of Fung's plan, it's a healthy way to eat. It's just not (IMO) the ONLY healthy way to eat and that's where I think he crosses the line.
My original point was that calling Fung a “quack” was uncalled for.
And, sadly, lots of people think their way is the only way.
What would you describe this sales pitch as?
"Everything you believe about how to lose weight is wrong. Weight gain and obesity are driven by hormones—in everyone—and only by understanding the effects of the hormones insulin and insulin resistance can we achieve lasting weight loss."
This is the beginning of the item description of "The Obesity Code" on Amazon.
The truth is that thousands and thousands of people are able to manage their weight long-term without giving thought one to insulin and insulin resistance.
This is the essence of quackery. Only I have the information that can help you. Everyone else is wrong. You're doomed without me.
Doctors disagree frequently.
In my opinion what makes someone a quack is intentional dishonesty just to make a buck.
Like Andrew Wakefield.
Or psychics who milk Grandma for every dime she has in hopes of speaking to Grandpa.
Fung is controversial. And, obviously not everyone’s cup of tea. But I haven’t yet seen any evidence that his methods are harmful.
Although If such evidence turns up? Especially if he doesn’t back off in light of such evidence? Then ya. I’ll call him a quack at that point.4 -
"Weight loss is hormones not calories" is lying to make a buck. Doctors saying false things like that is probably part of why everybody doesn't know CICO, to bring this full circle.25
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NorthCascades wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
While the review in the ADA journal (which I think is different from an official ADA review) doesn't say Fung is a quack, lines like "Where this book will challenge some diabetes health care professionals is in its claims that all current evidence-based, conventional treatments are wrong; this assertion is clearly untrue, so skip that part" seem to make it clear that they have serious concerns with his approach.
And some people have had success with the approach.
Which is why I said “controversial” would be a better word than “quack”
Here come a bunch more disagree reacts.
I don't think anyone denies that people have had success with Fung's approach. The truth is that any eating style that creates weight loss tends to improve the chronic diseases associated with excess weight.
The issue is whether or not the people touting a particular diet are correct when they make claims that they've found the ONLY way to control weight.
Some people have also had success with John McDougall's high carbohydrate plant-based diet when it comes to chronic disease control and weight management, but this doesn't mean he's found the only way to control weight. To the extent that he (or Fung) make claims that weight control requires eating according to their plan, they're being quacks.
From what I know of Fung's plan, it's a healthy way to eat. It's just not (IMO) the ONLY healthy way to eat and that's where I think he crosses the line.
My original point was that calling Fung a “quack” was uncalled for.
And, sadly, lots of people think their way is the only way.
"Mendacious shyster" is better. Now let's do Mercola! 🙂
Yes. Let’s. Please.
Mercola’s name is a frequent find on Quackwatch
https://quackwatch.org/?s&_sf_s=Mercola
I am limited to my phone, but I was unable to find Fung mentioned even once. Maybe it’s there?0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »"Weight loss is hormones not calories" is lying to make a buck. Doctors saying false things like that is probably part of why everybody doesn't know CICO, to bring this full circle.
Hormones aren’t involved? 🤨1 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
While the review in the ADA journal (which I think is different from an official ADA review) doesn't say Fung is a quack, lines like "Where this book will challenge some diabetes health care professionals is in its claims that all current evidence-based, conventional treatments are wrong; this assertion is clearly untrue, so skip that part" seem to make it clear that they have serious concerns with his approach.
And some people have had success with the approach.
Which is why I said “controversial” would be a better word than “quack”
Here come a bunch more disagree reacts.
I don't think anyone denies that people have had success with Fung's approach. The truth is that any eating style that creates weight loss tends to improve the chronic diseases associated with excess weight.
The issue is whether or not the people touting a particular diet are correct when they make claims that they've found the ONLY way to control weight.
Some people have also had success with John McDougall's high carbohydrate plant-based diet when it comes to chronic disease control and weight management, but this doesn't mean he's found the only way to control weight. To the extent that he (or Fung) make claims that weight control requires eating according to their plan, they're being quacks.
From what I know of Fung's plan, it's a healthy way to eat. It's just not (IMO) the ONLY healthy way to eat and that's where I think he crosses the line.
My original point was that calling Fung a “quack” was uncalled for.
And, sadly, lots of people think their way is the only way.
What would you describe this sales pitch as?
"Everything you believe about how to lose weight is wrong. Weight gain and obesity are driven by hormones—in everyone—and only by understanding the effects of the hormones insulin and insulin resistance can we achieve lasting weight loss."
This is the beginning of the item description of "The Obesity Code" on Amazon.
The truth is that thousands and thousands of people are able to manage their weight long-term without giving thought one to insulin and insulin resistance.
This is the essence of quackery. Only I have the information that can help you. Everyone else is wrong. You're doomed without me.
Doctors disagree frequently.
In my opinion what makes someone a quack is intentional dishonesty just to make a buck.
Like Andrew Wakefield.
Or psychics who milk Grandma for every dime she has in hopes of speaking to Grandpa.
Fung is controversial. And, obviously not everyone’s cup of tea. But I haven’t yet seen any evidence that his methods are harmful.
Although If such evidence turns up? Especially if he doesn’t back off in light of such evidence? Then ya. I’ll call him a quack at that point.
Wakefield and psychics are quacks too.
Dishonest ones out to make a buck too.
the fact there are other quacks doesnt mean Fung is not one.9 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »"Weight loss is hormones not calories" is lying to make a buck. Doctors saying false things like that is probably part of why everybody doesn't know CICO, to bring this full circle.
Hormones aren’t involved? 🤨
I dont think anyone is saying hormones are not involved.
But they don't change the bottom line of CICO - so 'weight loss is hormones, not calories' is an incorrect statement.
15 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »"Weight loss is hormones not calories" is lying to make a buck. Doctors saying false things like that is probably part of why everybody doesn't know CICO, to bring this full circle.
Hormones aren’t involved? 🤨
Clothes are involved. It's it clothes not calories that cause weight gain?11 -
NorthCascades wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »"Weight loss is hormones not calories" is lying to make a buck. Doctors saying false things like that is probably part of why everybody doesn't know CICO, to bring this full circle.
Hormones aren’t involved? 🤨
Clothes are involved. It's it clothes not calories that cause weight gain?
It doesn’t seem to matter how many times I say CICO is an important metric.
0 -
Bottom line:
Fung lies to people - unless you think CICO is false - and does so to profit.
Whether his eating method works for some or not is immaterial. Dude's lying to people for profit.18 -
CICO is an excellent start to a healthy lifestyle. Keeping a food diary and learning proper quantities of food required for health is important! However, it's way to easy to get obsessed with it and it is known to be associated with the misunderstanding that lack of willpower causes obesity, which is the basis of a slew of stigma against overweight people. Health is this extremely complex thing involving so much more than just counting calories. There was even a study, sometime back, showing that nutrients are actually absorbed better when we enjoy what we're eating. And managing stress has a huge impact on health, I think way more than calories.2
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Quack5 -
0
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TakeTheLongWayHome wrote: »
Quack
I know that's about Fung and other fraud doctors. But I can't look at a picture like that without thinking how beautiful mallards are.12 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
While the review in the ADA journal (which I think is different from an official ADA review) doesn't say Fung is a quack, lines like "Where this book will challenge some diabetes health care professionals is in its claims that all current evidence-based, conventional treatments are wrong; this assertion is clearly untrue, so skip that part" seem to make it clear that they have serious concerns with his approach.
And some people have had success with the approach.
Which is why I said “controversial” would be a better word than “quack”
Here come a bunch more disagree reacts.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
10 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️1
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