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Anyone else frustrated with the CICO mantra?
Replies
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Low carb diets not being appropriate doesn't mean high carb diets would be.5
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paperpudding wrote: »Low carb diets not being appropriate doesn't mean high carb diets would be.
😂1 -
Well I'm more than sure they wouldn't agree on a high carb diet as a replacement.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
No I said the ADA would endorse Fong than a high carb diet plan.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Because it caters to ADA more than others? I mean of course the ADA would endorse him more than say a high carb book writer on weight loss.MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
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I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️
But getting back to Fung..........he dismisses actual scientific evidence when it comes to weightloss and dismisses CICO. He states insulin is the reason for all the obese issues. And again, I'll state that protein is insulingenic. But he won't dismiss that because it would go against his approach to low/no carb dieting.
QUACK.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
12 -
Well I'm more than sure they wouldn't agree on a high carb diet as a replacement.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
No I said the ADA would endorse Fong than a high carb diet plan.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Because it caters to ADA more than others? I mean of course the ADA would endorse him more than say a high carb book writer on weight loss.MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️
But getting back to Fung..........he dismisses actual scientific evidence when it comes to weightloss and dismisses CICO. He states insulin is the reason for all the obese issues. And again, I'll state that protein is insulingenic. But he won't dismiss that because it would go against his approach to low/no carb dieting.
QUACK.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Since you feel so strongly, you should probably send your information to QuackWatch.1 -
Well I'm more than sure they wouldn't agree on a high carb diet as a replacement.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
No I said the ADA would endorse Fong than a high carb diet plan.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Because it caters to ADA more than others? I mean of course the ADA would endorse him more than say a high carb book writer on weight loss.MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️
But getting back to Fung..........he dismisses actual scientific evidence when it comes to weightloss and dismisses CICO. He states insulin is the reason for all the obese issues. And again, I'll state that protein is insulingenic. But he won't dismiss that because it would go against his approach to low/no carb dieting.
QUACK.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just out of curiosity, how would you define a high carb diet?0 -
For some of us, CICO is NOT completely true. I have PCOS, which is rooted in insulin resistance. If I don't limit carbs and sugar, CICO won't help because of the way my body responds to sugar. So while CICO is true in a sense, it is too general to work for some people who have specific metabolic issues. And the OP is right...it's something we all know, but it doesn't get to the root of WHY we overeat or eat crappy, unhealthy foods instead of the foods that will help us the most.6
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kmbrooks15 wrote: »For some of us, CICO is NOT completely true. I have PCOS, which is rooted in insulin resistance. If I don't limit carbs and sugar, CICO won't help because of the way my body responds to sugar. So while CICO is true in a sense, it is too general to work for some people who have specific metabolic issues. And the OP is right...it's something we all know, but it doesn't get to the root of WHY we overeat or eat crappy, unhealthy foods instead of the foods that will help us the most.
You are mistaking CICO for calorie counting. Your PCOS merely changes the CI to CO ratio; it does not invalidate the science.23 -
kmbrooks15 wrote: »For some of us, CICO is NOT completely true. I have PCOS, which is rooted in insulin resistance. If I don't limit carbs and sugar, CICO won't help because of the way my body responds to sugar. So while CICO is true in a sense, it is too general to work for some people who have specific metabolic issues. And the OP is right...it's something we all know, but it doesn't get to the root of WHY we overeat or eat crappy, unhealthy foods instead of the foods that will help us the most.
Respectfully, I disagree. I also have PCOS, and insulin resistance (note: not all women with PCOS have insulin resistance), and am consistently losing weight by counting calories and ignoring macros/carb counts/sugar counts etc. CICO is not too general, it is physics. The tricky thing with women with PCOS or people with metabolic issues, thyroid issues etc. is figuring out the CO side of the equation - tricky, but not impossible and really not THAT much different to the average human with the same height/weight/gender/level of activity/etc. - within a couple hundred calories a day for most people.
Of course there can be issues with the CI side of the equation, but that's true of everyone who has impaired eating habits. At the end of the day, if your CI is less than CO, you will lose weight by burning fat stores. How you balance that and what you need to do to make your CI lower is of course going to differ for individuals. But that doesn't mean that CICO doesn't work for an individual, it just means that they are struggling to calculate one or both sides of that equation.27 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »"Weight loss is hormones not calories" is lying to make a buck. Doctors saying false things like that is probably part of why everybody doesn't know CICO, to bring this full circle.
Hormones aren’t involved? 🤨
Clothes are involved. It's it clothes not calories that cause weight gain?
It doesn’t seem to matter how many times I say CICO is an important metric.
For what it's worth. CICO is short hand for a description of how human bodies use food and energy. It's just a true thing about reality that humans have discovered, with a lot of work. Same basic way (science) humans learned about electricity, radioactivity, and all kinds of other real things. That's why CICO works. 🙂5 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Well I'm more than sure they wouldn't agree on a high carb diet as a replacement.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
No I said the ADA would endorse Fong than a high carb diet plan.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Because it caters to ADA more than others? I mean of course the ADA would endorse him more than say a high carb book writer on weight loss.MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️
But getting back to Fung..........he dismisses actual scientific evidence when it comes to weightloss and dismisses CICO. He states insulin is the reason for all the obese issues. And again, I'll state that protein is insulingenic. But he won't dismiss that because it would go against his approach to low/no carb dieting.
QUACK.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Since you feel so strongly, you should probably send your information to QuackWatch.
When did QuackWatch become a gold standard? I have problems with Fung, Mercola, AND QuackWatch.8 -
Over 200+ grams. That would nix any low carb or keto diet.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Well I'm more than sure they wouldn't agree on a high carb diet as a replacement.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
No I said the ADA would endorse Fong than a high carb diet plan.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Because it caters to ADA more than others? I mean of course the ADA would endorse him more than say a high carb book writer on weight loss.MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️
But getting back to Fung..........he dismisses actual scientific evidence when it comes to weightloss and dismisses CICO. He states insulin is the reason for all the obese issues. And again, I'll state that protein is insulingenic. But he won't dismiss that because it would go against his approach to low/no carb dieting.
QUACK.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just out of curiosity, how would you define a high carb diet?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »"Weight loss is hormones not calories" is lying to make a buck. Doctors saying false things like that is probably part of why everybody doesn't know CICO, to bring this full circle.
Hormones aren’t involved? 🤨
Clothes are involved. It's it clothes not calories that cause weight gain?
It doesn’t seem to matter how many times I say CICO is an important metric.
For what it's worth. CICO is short hand for a description of how human bodies use food and energy. It's just a true thing about reality that humans have discovered, with a lot of work. Same basic way (science) humans learned about electricity, radioactivity, and all kinds of other real things. That's why CICO works. 🙂
Yes. I am aware. Thankyou.
I am someone who has always said in every one of these discussions that CICO is the baseline of things to acknowledge.
Baseline.
Meaning that it’s key. A foundation.
But every time I mention that other things are also important to consider I get a ton of disagree reacts.
🤷🏼♀️1 -
Over 200+ grams. That would nix any low carb or keto diet.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Well I'm more than sure they wouldn't agree on a high carb diet as a replacement.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
No I said the ADA would endorse Fong than a high carb diet plan.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Because it caters to ADA more than others? I mean of course the ADA would endorse him more than say a high carb book writer on weight loss.MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️
But getting back to Fung..........he dismisses actual scientific evidence when it comes to weightloss and dismisses CICO. He states insulin is the reason for all the obese issues. And again, I'll state that protein is insulingenic. But he won't dismiss that because it would go against his approach to low/no carb dieting.
QUACK.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just out of curiosity, how would you define a high carb diet?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Well, for what it’s worth, my husband’s ADA recommendation for daily carbs is lower now, due to age and disability. But when he was younger and a Tae Kwon Do sabom, 200 carbs daily was his minimum.
He definitely wasn’t obese.
🤷🏼♀️0 -
I thought the low carb/ high carb question was in relation to diabetes.
Nobody is saying one cannot be obese or not obese eating a high carb diet.2 -
I eat over that now. Not even unusual to be at 300g a day. But I can bet if one was obese or diabetic, ADA recommendation would be likely no more than 50-75g a day.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Over 200+ grams. That would nix any low carb or keto diet.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Well I'm more than sure they wouldn't agree on a high carb diet as a replacement.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
No I said the ADA would endorse Fong than a high carb diet plan.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Because it caters to ADA more than others? I mean of course the ADA would endorse him more than say a high carb book writer on weight loss.MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️
But getting back to Fung..........he dismisses actual scientific evidence when it comes to weightloss and dismisses CICO. He states insulin is the reason for all the obese issues. And again, I'll state that protein is insulingenic. But he won't dismiss that because it would go against his approach to low/no carb dieting.
QUACK.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just out of curiosity, how would you define a high carb diet?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Well, for what it’s worth, my husband’s ADA recommendation for daily carbs is lower now, due to age and disability. But when he was younger and a Tae Kwon Do sabom, 200 carbs daily was his minimum.
He definitely wasn’t obese.
🤷🏼♀️
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
I eat over that now. Not even unusual to be at 300g a day. But I can bet if one was obese or diabetic, ADA recommendation would be likely no more than 50-75g a day.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Over 200+ grams. That would nix any low carb or keto diet.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Well I'm more than sure they wouldn't agree on a high carb diet as a replacement.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
No I said the ADA would endorse Fong than a high carb diet plan.MargaretYakoda wrote: »
Because it caters to ADA more than others? I mean of course the ADA would endorse him more than say a high carb book writer on weight loss.MargaretYakoda wrote: »If Fong is a “quack” then why doesn’t the American Diabetes Association say so when they review his book?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6640893/
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I didn’t say the ADA endorsed Dr Fong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The ADA specifically says low carb diets are not appropriate for people on certain diabetic medications.
It really isn’t that simple. 🤷🏼♀️
But getting back to Fung..........he dismisses actual scientific evidence when it comes to weightloss and dismisses CICO. He states insulin is the reason for all the obese issues. And again, I'll state that protein is insulingenic. But he won't dismiss that because it would go against his approach to low/no carb dieting.
QUACK.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Just out of curiosity, how would you define a high carb diet?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Well, for what it’s worth, my husband’s ADA recommendation for daily carbs is lower now, due to age and disability. But when he was younger and a Tae Kwon Do sabom, 200 carbs daily was his minimum.
He definitely wasn’t obese.
🤷🏼♀️
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I’m a newly diagnosed diabetic. My nutritionist recommend 150 carbs a day.
But, since I have a problem with eating enough allowed me to set a minimum of 100 carbs, with a max of 150.
My husband gets about 175 a day now. As a mostly sedentary (40 mins on the NuStep every morning but otherwise not much exercise) 73 year old male.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a KETO fan. I just thought “Well, it works for some people… shrug”
Until about ten minutes ago.
I’m about to post what changed my mind on that. I’ll post it in debate.
But I think you’ll find it interesting. And probably use it to bolster your view of Fung. 😇2 -
@clairesimpson4
I didn't read all of the responses, so if this has already been pointed out, my apologies.
CICO is merely an explanation of HOW to lose weight. You are asking a WHY question. You cannot answer a WHY question with a HOW answer. As a scientist, I would think you would know that.
But to answer your WHY question: Some people overeat because of poor habits and, more often than not, poor mental health. HOW do we, as a society, overcome this? Therapy. Will we ever overcome this? No. Because insurance companies would rather pay for "happy" pills than pay for therapy and people would rather pop a pill than do the work in therapy just as people would rather follow fad diets that promise quick and easy weight loss than do the hard work to lose the weight and keep it off. Coincidence?10 -
The issue ISN'T the mantra or any statement made that's actually true, but lies WITHIN the person who's overweight if they are WILLING to accept that it is CICO and that if they are WILLING to adhere to the formula, they'd lose weight. You can give all the right and correct information to anyone and sugar coat it anyway you want. But unless ACTION is taken, it falls on deaf ears anyway.clairesimpson4 wrote: »@cmriverside did you read my post? I don't deny that CICO is true. I'm saying it's unhelpful to keep saying it to people over and over because we all know it. I don't have a solution, it's not my area of expertise. But the answer isn't to shrug our shoulders and dismiss the idea that it really is more complicated than that. We need more research. But you're wrong about where the problem lies. I refer to my alcoholic example again - telling an alcoholic not to drink so much doesn't help the person quit.
As an aside, a lot of medications cause weight gain, most often by increasing appetite. The opposite is also true - Saxenda for example works for weight loss partially by decreasing appetite. Hunger is part of the problem. Humans aren't designed to ignore it. It's why most diets fail.
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Knowing and doing are 2 very different things. I am quite knowledgeable on nutrition and exercise because I've spent a lot of time reading about it so I know what to do to lose weight and to make sure I am getting all of my nutrients. But guess what? I still got to be up to over 300 pounds because knowledge doesn't do anything. Action does.10 -
Yep. Words without action are just that....................words.ccindicane2 wrote: »
The issue ISN'T the mantra or any statement made that's actually true, but lies WITHIN the person who's overweight if they are WILLING to accept that it is CICO and that if they are WILLING to adhere to the formula, they'd lose weight. You can give all the right and correct information to anyone and sugar coat it anyway you want. But unless ACTION is taken, it falls on deaf ears anyway.clairesimpson4 wrote: »@cmriverside did you read my post? I don't deny that CICO is true. I'm saying it's unhelpful to keep saying it to people over and over because we all know it. I don't have a solution, it's not my area of expertise. But the answer isn't to shrug our shoulders and dismiss the idea that it really is more complicated than that. We need more research. But you're wrong about where the problem lies. I refer to my alcoholic example again - telling an alcoholic not to drink so much doesn't help the person quit.
As an aside, a lot of medications cause weight gain, most often by increasing appetite. The opposite is also true - Saxenda for example works for weight loss partially by decreasing appetite. Hunger is part of the problem. Humans aren't designed to ignore it. It's why most diets fail.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Knowing and doing are 2 very different things. I am quite knowledgeable on nutrition and exercise because I've spent a lot of time reading about it so I know what to do to lose weight and to make sure I am getting all of my nutrients. But guess what? I still got to be up to over 300 pounds because knowledge doesn't do anything. Action does.
When I hear people say to me "I wish I was that dedicated to health and exercise like you", they don't really mean it because if they did................they'd do it. Granted they may not work out like me, but hardly anyone that says it actually would dedicate to it. It just sounds good.
I think what happens is too many people try to do a full 180 instead of taking a moderate approach. Anytime I train I client, they think that they only need about 1 month of training then they will be okay on their own. But it takes about 2 weeks of training just to get acclimated to an exercise regimen and in the next 2 weeks, I'm just barely getting them STARTED on the right program. I keep most clients at minimum 3 months. Hopefully by then, they become consistent and continuous. Lol, but it's not uncommon for about half of them to hook up with me again at New Years day.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
6 -
ccindicane2 wrote: »@clairesimpson4
I didn't read all of the responses, so if this has already been pointed out, my apologies.
CICO is merely an explanation of HOW to lose weight. You are asking a WHY question. You cannot answer a WHY question with a HOW answer. As a scientist, I would think you would know that.
I think this is really the key thing. I think there's also an embedded assumption that when explaining the how, there's a passing of moral judgment. I'm not denying that obese and overweight people are subject to unfair moral judgments of their character because they absolutely are and I've experienced that myself, but actual nutrition science and the functioning of the digestive system does not pass judgment. It simply is what it is.
People who are overweight or obese have habitually consumed more calories than their bodies actually needed. Why that is can be simple or complicated. It doesn't lessen their inherent dignity or worth as people. If they want to lose the excess weight they need to eat less than their bodies need, also habitually. Depending on circumstances it might require some really careful troubleshooting to figure out the math, and people who find it very difficult to do that should be treated with compassion. But it doesn't do anybody any favors to say that the math isn't going to apply at all, because it just isn't true.14
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