How to start cutting
marianinacoppola733
Posts: 1 Member
Hey all, I have been building a good amount of muscle the past 2 years with a covid hiccup along the way. I am looking to keep building but also really focus on losing fat. I was always low carb and prefer to stay along the same lines. Also started tracking my macros and logging my food. I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful tips for me!
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Replies
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You can either eat at a deficit (aka cut, somewhere in the range of 80% of your TDEE) or eat at maintenance (often dubbed recomp). In either case you should keep eating lots of protein (preferably at least 1g per lb of body weight).
Eating at a considerable deficit will drop fat quicker but you will also have a harder time maintaining strength and building muscle mass. Eating at maintenance is a slower process but is easier to deal with physically and mentally. By most accounts a cycle of cutting and bulking is considerably more efficient.
In most cases concerning yourself with carb and fat percentages is unnecessary, though you will carry less water weight on lower carbs (lower insulin, lower sodium retention, lower water retention) which is a potential positive to going that route.
In terms of workout routine on any significant deficit you will likely tire easier. It could be beneficial to drop total volume as well as to lift heavy weights for lower reps.
So to summarize the main points are: eat lots of protein, eat fewer calories than you burn, and lift heavy weight.0 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »Eating 1g of protein/ 1lb of bodyweight is a myth and ridiculous. You don't need that much protein. The supplement companies are the reason this myth continues to survive because they know you would need supplements to get that much protein a day and supplement protein is inferior to protein from real food sources. There was a study done and they found that 0.8G of protein/1lb of bodyweight was the most your muscles could benefit from per day and even this recommendation was on the high side. You could eat 0.5g protein/1lb of bodyweight and you'll be fine. There's a guy who did just this. He went from eating 1g protein /1lb bw, then to 0.6g protein/1lb bw, then finally to 0.5g protein/1lb of bw and he took before and after picture and he found no difference in his strength or his muscle mass.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210123120242/https://www.fitmole.org/1-gram-protein-cut/
Regarding the guy who reduced his protein, he didn't "just do this", that post is from several years ago, hence why it's archived on waybackmachine. He said himself he noticed some minor differences in appearance, though they could be attributed to lax intake regulation, it's not certain. He had already achieved a pretty decent physique and wanted to be able to have more lifestyle flexibility; good for him for finding a sustainable adjustment. BUT, using his n=1 as a reference for someone looking to enter a fat loss phase is misapplied.
Further, the insistence that supplement protein is inferior is incorrect. The study referenced in this article (with other good points about other studies surrounding protein intake) showed no difference in body composition changes between groups consuming protein powder vs. whole food protein sources. https://www.t-nation.com/supplements/tip-whole-foods-vs-protein-powders/. Further, whey protein is the most bio-available protein source (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3905294/) and being derived from dairy I would reject the notion that it's not "real food".
Now, I agree with @tictoerest1 that a person eating 0.5g/lb of protein will still be "fine". However, if that individual has body composition, physique, and/or athletic performance goals, that's not optimal.
From that linked T-Nation article with my editorial comments in bold:
- A fat-loss diet that’s higher in protein leads to more fat loss and more muscle preservation than a diet lower in protein… even if overall calories are the same in both diet plans. sounds great
- A diet higher in protein leads to more muscle gain than a diet lower in protein… again, even if calories are kept the same. also, sounds great
- A diet higher in protein leads to less belly fat than a lower-protein plan. You guessed it… even if calories are the same in both diets. again
- Protein is the most satiating (filling) of the three macronutrients. So a high protein fat-loss plan will make you less crazy than a low-protein diet plan. advantageous
- It’s very difficult for your body to convert protein into body fat, even at very high amounts. If a larger chunk of your diet is made up of protein, you’ll be able to eat more and still lose fat. color me intrigued
- Increasing protein intake above the usual recommended levels enhances protein synthesis, lean body mass, postprandial thermogenesis, and cardiometabolic health. cool, sounds complicated but I'm here for it
@marianinacoppola733 my recommendations would be:
- stick to a deficit requisite to lose no more than 1% body weight per week.
- a deficit of 0.5% loss was shown to promote better adherence (per Renaissance Periodization)
- Also from RP's guidance, don't extend a consistent loss phase for more than 12 weeks without taking a diet break at maintenance.
- get 0.6g/lb protein as the minimum for daily intake.
- generally stick to healthier portions of fat and carbs from whole grains and fruit, adjusting macros for satiety as they have less to do with body composition. There's some evidence to suggest avoiding fats and prioritizing protein around workouts but meal timing and dosages are far less important that the overall daily numbers.
- if you want to stay low carb, that's fine but don't buy in to the fear mongering about them.5 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »Eating 1g of protein/ 1lb of bodyweight is a myth and ridiculous. You don't need that much protein. The supplement companies are the reason this myth continues to survive because they know you would need supplements to get that much protein a day and supplement protein is inferior to protein from real food sources. There was a study done and they found that 0.8G of protein/1lb of bodyweight was the most your muscles could benefit from per day and even this recommendation was on the high side. You could eat 0.5g protein/1lb of bodyweight and you'll be fine. There's a guy who did just this. He went from eating 1g protein /1lb bw, then to 0.6g protein/1lb bw, then finally to 0.5g protein/1lb of bw and he took before and after picture and he found no difference in his strength or his muscle mass.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210123120242/https://www.fitmole.org/1-gram-protein-cut/
I basically gave up on believing anything you wrote when you said supplement protein is inferior to protein from food sources. Though I did check out the link and the guy literally looks worse in the second picture, says he lost reps on an exercise, and can "definitely tell he lost some muscle". I don't find 1g/lb unmanageable whatsoever.5 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »Don't believe the hype. They are just trying selling you supplements you don't need and supplements are totally inferior to real food. There are no strict regulations on supplement ingredients either. Who knows what you're ingesting along with mediocre protein. Almost every website pushes the 1g/bw, yet many sites are now reducing it to .8g/bw (which is still on the high side) because other bloggers are pointing out studies that show it's bull. It's very simple, check the advertisements of the web sites who recommend 0.8 or higher grams of protein and what do you see? They are advertising some brand of protein powder. It's big business in the fitness industry. A business of deception and there are many fake accounts on the internet or other people who believe this nonsense and cite the same flawed studies.
Don't believe? Try it yourself. Reduce your protein intake to 0.5g/lb and see how much difference it makes.
The guy in the article YOU linked literally did that and his fitness got worse. It takes 2 seconds to Google protein bio availability and literally every study will show you whey protein is number 1. In fact other protein bio availability is often stated as a decimal of whey (with whey being 1.00). As far as I know the general consensus is "1g/lb" is definitely enough. Would you rather be slightly over what is best or to take 0.5g/lb and end up losing muscle mass, looking shittier and dropping weights in the gym like the guy in the study you actually linked.2 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »Don't believe the hype. They are just trying selling you supplements you don't need and supplements are totally inferior to real food. There are no strict regulations on supplement ingredients either. Who knows what you're ingesting along with mediocre protein. Almost every website pushes the 1g/bw, yet many sites are now reducing it to .8g/bw (which is still on the high side) because other bloggers are pointing out studies that show it's bull. It's very simple, check the advertisements of the web sites who recommend 0.8 or higher grams of protein and what do you see? They are advertising some brand of protein powder. It's big business in the fitness industry. A business of deception and there are many fake accounts on the internet or other people who believe this nonsense and cite the same flawed studies.
Don't believe? Try it yourself. Reduce your protein intake to 0.5g/lb and see how much difference it makes.
I'm with @JeffMatchett and say "thanks, but no thanks" to your suggestion.
Additionally, this is an actual scholarly study that compared protein supplementation to whole food protein sources. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882701/. I acknowledge that one study is far from conclusive but I don't see any contridatory evidence to support your claim... do you have any?
My understanding of the origination of the 1g/lb body weight recommendation is that rather than some nefarious supplement misinformation campaign it stemmed from gym bros and bodybuilders seeing/hearing the 0.8g/lb and rounding up because a) that decimal sounds like math, and b) just to be safe (not fully grasping that the 0.8g/lb figure included that factor already). Again, I absolutely agree that fitness is big business and way too much of the supplement industry is built squarely on a foundation of glitzy marketing and/or misinformation about what your body needs to <insert desired goal>. Furthermore, the importance of supplementation is far overblow by the diet/fitness/wellness industry. However, painting with such a broad brush is about all supplements and protein powders is counterproductive. For all the sketchy snake oil peddlers out there, there are some outfits undoubtedly producing high quality supplements. I'd encourage anyone to do their due diligence on protein brands via a platform such as labdoor, which verifies the ingredient content of things like protein powder.2 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »JeffMatchett wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »Don't believe the hype. They are just trying selling you supplements you don't need and supplements are totally inferior to real food. There are no strict regulations on supplement ingredients either. Who knows what you're ingesting along with mediocre protein. Almost every website pushes the 1g/bw, yet many sites are now reducing it to .8g/bw (which is still on the high side) because other bloggers are pointing out studies that show it's bull. It's very simple, check the advertisements of the web sites who recommend 0.8 or higher grams of protein and what do you see? They are advertising some brand of protein powder. It's big business in the fitness industry. A business of deception and there are many fake accounts on the internet or other people who believe this nonsense and cite the same flawed studies.
Don't believe? Try it yourself. Reduce your protein intake to 0.5g/lb and see how much difference it makes.
The guy in the article YOU linked literally did that and his fitness got worse. It takes 2 seconds to Google protein bio availability and literally every study will show you whey protein is number 1. In fact other protein bio availability is often stated as a decimal of whey (with whey being 1.00). As far as I know the general consensus is "1g/lb" is definitely enough. Would you rather be slightly over what is best or to take 0.5g/lb and end up losing muscle mass, looking shittier and dropping weights in the gym like the guy in the study you actually linked.
The guy in the article said this, " What happened after I reduced my protein intake? Surprisingly, not much."
You're appealing to fallacy of exaggeration. He doesn't look any different in both pictures. As far as strength, he says,
"Decreasing my protein over the years just made me fell better. I still lift heavy on chest and squats (and have lost little strength), but I rarely get over .5g anymore. One thing I will say is that I sure don’t miss protein shakes haha".
See what he said, "and have lost little strength"
So saying that he said his fitness got worse is a false statement.
Yes he says he lost little strength and knows he lost muscle mass. Anything else? If you're content with not maximizing your gains go for it.
Would you be more content with protein shakes if you just made some cheese yourself, dried out the liquid, and ate the powder? Super processed I know. You can easily find, as mentioned, testing done for an assortment of proteins and supplements in labdoor.3 -
I find it very odd you think getting your
1g/lb protein is so hard through whole foods and then you link an article praising whey protein for being a whole protein, being the most bioavailable protein and being extremely accessible.1 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »JeffMatchett wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »JeffMatchett wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »Don't believe the hype. They are just trying selling you supplements you don't need and supplements are totally inferior to real food. There are no strict regulations on supplement ingredients either. Who knows what you're ingesting along with mediocre protein. Almost every website pushes the 1g/bw, yet many sites are now reducing it to .8g/bw (which is still on the high side) because other bloggers are pointing out studies that show it's bull. It's very simple, check the advertisements of the web sites who recommend 0.8 or higher grams of protein and what do you see? They are advertising some brand of protein powder. It's big business in the fitness industry. A business of deception and there are many fake accounts on the internet or other people who believe this nonsense and cite the same flawed studies.
Don't believe? Try it yourself. Reduce your protein intake to 0.5g/lb and see how much difference it makes.
The guy in the article YOU linked literally did that and his fitness got worse. It takes 2 seconds to Google protein bio availability and literally every study will show you whey protein is number 1. In fact other protein bio availability is often stated as a decimal of whey (with whey being 1.00). As far as I know the general consensus is "1g/lb" is definitely enough. Would you rather be slightly over what is best or to take 0.5g/lb and end up losing muscle mass, looking shittier and dropping weights in the gym like the guy in the study you actually linked.
The guy in the article said this, " What happened after I reduced my protein intake? Surprisingly, not much."
You're appealing to fallacy of exaggeration. He doesn't look any different in both pictures. As far as strength, he says,
"Decreasing my protein over the years just made me fell better. I still lift heavy on chest and squats (and have lost little strength), but I rarely get over .5g anymore. One thing I will say is that I sure don’t miss protein shakes haha".
See what he said, "and have lost little strength"
So saying that he said his fitness got worse is a false statement.
Yes he says he lost little strength and knows he lost muscle mass. Anything else? If you're content with not maximizing your gains go for it.
Would you be more content with protein shakes if you just made some cheese yourself, dried out the liquid, and ate the powder? Super processed I know. You can easily find, as mentioned, testing done for an assortment of proteins and supplements in labdoor.
Whatever you want to do if it makes you happier. I'm just saying at the end of the day, there won't be much of a difference and it's not worth torturing yourself over, but again that's your deal.
If I want liquid protein I'll drink milk. If I made my own protein shake would I be content? Well yeah, because I made it and not some large corporation that cuts corners and is all about increasing profit and doesn't really care about your health and safety but is solely concerned with profits because it's a business. Would it be worth it? No, because it would be much easier just to eat the piece of cheese.
I think it's funny that you'll happily drink milk even though it's "processed" (pasteurization) and gloss over that dairy is big business itself. You also miss the mark about corporations not caring about health and safety; shirking health and safety = leaving the door open for liability, bad press, etc. Sure, the motivating factor being that those things hurt their bottom line but big companies care about health and safety to the extent it could bring them harm (source: am employed by Fortune 500 company).
Also, to be perfectly clear, I'm not suggesting one has to, or even should consume protein supplement to achieve whatever their requisite intake goals are. Nor am I suggesting that protein supplements are superior to whole food protein sources, I'm suggesting there isn't sufficient evidence to say they're woefully inferior and unhealthy (as you keep unequivocally proclaiming) and are a convenient and accessible way to add protein to one's diet should they deem that necessary for their goal(s).3 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »@Steveko89 and @JeffMatchet must be the same person. Constantly relying on illogical fallacies. This time red herring. Oh you drink milk and that article I find funny...
This is how paid shill trolls work. They create phony accounts and police forums to push their propaganda to sway forum opinion and when anyone counters their master's narrative they pounce with all sorts of rubbish. Notice how they couldn't say muster up a response after I posted that bodybuilding.com article. That's because bodybuilding.com is a mainstream site and they know they can't argue with that because they are here to push big biz rubbish. So what do they do since they can't face the facts? They resort back to more fallacies.
The bodybuilding.com article literally says that whey protein is nearly as good as whole eggs in terms of bioavailable protein...2 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »@dharbolt Yeah, but why waste your money on something that is "nearly as good". Forget that scam.
I think if you bothered to do the math, you would probably find it is not much of a scam. If I were to get every gram of protein I eat per day from a protein shake it would cost $5.67 CAD / $4.52 USD (6kg for $126 shipped). The same amount of protein would take 1.63kg of egg whites, 670g of chicken (~3.8 chicken breasts at 172g each), 1.28kg of ground beef, 720g of cheese, etc. Seems pretty damn cost effective to me. Far from a scam, though I don't pay exorbitant amounts for trash protein with fake promises. I suppose I could drink 5.2L of milk in a day.
@steveko89 and I are clearly fake accounts that keep detailed (open) diaries just in case someone catches on.
3 -
JeffMatchett wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »@dharbolt Yeah, but why waste your money on something that is "nearly as good". Forget that scam.
I think if you bothered to do the math, you would probably find it is not much of a scam. If I were to get every gram of protein I eat per day from a protein shake it would cost $5.67 CAD / $4.52 USD (6kg for $126 shipped). The same amount of protein would take 1.63kg of egg whites, 670g of chicken (~3.8 chicken breasts at 172g each), 1.28kg of ground beef, 720g of cheese, etc. Seems pretty damn cost effective to me. Far from a scam, though I don't pay exorbitant amounts for trash protein with fake promises. I suppose I could drink 5.2L of milk in a day.
@steveko89 and I are clearly fake accounts that keep detailed (open) diaries just in case someone catches on.
@JeffMatchett, you getting paid? I'm sure as heck not, hook a brother up
I'd gladly take some of that sweet cash from BIG PROTEIN3 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »@dharbolt Yeah, but why waste your money on something that is "nearly as good". Forget that scam.
I take quite a lot of protein powders and have
My protein as high as 1.5g per pound times, the opposite of you.
So just for fun shall we compare body composition
And blood work, just for entertainment values1 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »"Regarding the guy who reduced his protein, he didn't "just do this", that post is from several years ago, hence why it's archived on waybackmachine.
That's a fallacious statement. It happened a few years ago hence waybackmachine so it must be wrong and outdated. For one, many things happen in history and are still true today. Secondly, wayback machine is used to archive websites. You can find an archive of a website from today on that site. It's a great tool against censorship.
"He said himself he noticed some minor differences in appearance, though they could be attributed to lax intake regulation, it's not certain.:
Not certain? What was the whole article about? Article says, "What happened after I reduced my protein intake? Surprisingly, not much." Lax intake regulation? Yeah, he lowered his protein intake.
"He had already achieved a pretty decent physique and wanted to be able to have more lifestyle flexibility; good for him for finding a sustainable adjustment. BUT, using his n=1 as a reference for someone looking to enter a fat loss phase is misapplied."
Do you need to eat more protein during a calorie deficit? Yes protein is satiating but almost everyone will have trouble with getting 1g/1lb of bw into their system everyday, unless they buy protein powder.... You see. It's a trick. Even 0.8 is on the high end. See: http://www.jmaxfitness.com/blog/protein-intake/
Nothing beats real food and supplements are not real food. Maybe I should of clarified myself earlier, real whole food because supplements are processed "foods". Supplements are big business. Sure, there are cases where people need supplements and that's because they have a bad diet or some kind of health problem that makes it difficult to eat, but if you're healthy and just have a bad diet, fix the diet by eating the correct foods. Buying some expensive can of processed powder that is overkill (and who knows what all is in it, regulations?) doesn't make any sense. You have to ask yourself, why are they pushing very high daily protein intake? Because you will more likely buy the protein powder and they know this. It's all marketing trickery.
Even @steveko89 agrees at the end with his recommendation, "get 0.6g/lb protein as the minimum for daily intake."
It surprises me mightily when people say things like the bolded. I admit, my minimum is 0.8g/pound, but I routinely exceed it without eating protein powder/bars . . . as a freakin' vegetarian. I think I could do it fully plant based/vegan.
Unless an omnivore is cutting crazy hard, I don't see how 0.8-1g/lb of a healthy weight can be terrifically hard via food alone with meat/fish as options, if a person considers it a priority.
Whether it's essential, for whom, and why, is a different question.3 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »"Regarding the guy who reduced his protein, he didn't "just do this", that post is from several years ago, hence why it's archived on waybackmachine.
That's a fallacious statement. It happened a few years ago hence waybackmachine so it must be wrong and outdated. For one, many things happen in history and are still true today. Secondly, wayback machine is used to archive websites. You can find an archive of a website from today on that site. It's a great tool against censorship.
"He said himself he noticed some minor differences in appearance, though they could be attributed to lax intake regulation, it's not certain.:
Not certain? What was the whole article about? Article says, "What happened after I reduced my protein intake? Surprisingly, not much." Lax intake regulation? Yeah, he lowered his protein intake.
"He had already achieved a pretty decent physique and wanted to be able to have more lifestyle flexibility; good for him for finding a sustainable adjustment. BUT, using his n=1 as a reference for someone looking to enter a fat loss phase is misapplied."
Do you need to eat more protein during a calorie deficit? Yes protein is satiating but almost everyone will have trouble with getting 1g/1lb of bw into their system everyday, unless they buy protein powder.... You see. It's a trick. Even 0.8 is on the high end. See: http://www.jmaxfitness.com/blog/protein-intake/
Nothing beats real food and supplements are not real food. Maybe I should of clarified myself earlier, real whole food because supplements are processed "foods". Supplements are big business. Sure, there are cases where people need supplements and that's because they have a bad diet or some kind of health problem that makes it difficult to eat, but if you're healthy and just have a bad diet, fix the diet by eating the correct foods. Buying some expensive can of processed powder that is overkill (and who knows what all is in it, regulations?) doesn't make any sense. You have to ask yourself, why are they pushing very high daily protein intake? Because you will more likely buy the protein powder and they know this. It's all marketing trickery.
Even @steveko89 agrees at the end with his recommendation, "get 0.6g/lb protein as the minimum for daily intake."
It surprises me mightily when people say things like the bolded. I admit, my minimum is 0.8g/pound, but I routinely exceed it without eating protein powder/bars . . . as a freakin' vegetarian. I think I could do it fully plant based/vegan.
Unless an omnivore is cutting crazy hard, I don't see how 0.8-1g/lb of a healthy weight can be terrifically hard via food alone with meat/fish as options, if a person considers it a priority.
Whether it's essential, for whom, and why, is a different question.
I had pretty massive protein issues when I first started - it's why I started. I was getting about 12-15 grams most days. That said adding ANY major protein source at all, or even many minor ones, and it got pretty easy, pretty fast. At this point I really don't use supplements most days. Cottage cheese and greek yogurt are actually where MOST of my protein comes from, with some legumes/eggs/fish/actual meat in there. Basically I just needed a handful of primary protein sources and a whole lot of incidental amounts of protein located in veg/bread/etc.
That said, when I started I was basically living entirely on carbs and fat.4 -
JeffMatchett wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »Eating 1g of protein/ 1lb of bodyweight is a myth and ridiculous. You don't need that much protein. The supplement companies are the reason this myth continues to survive because they know you would need supplements to get that much protein a day and supplement protein is inferior to protein from real food sources. There was a study done and they found that 0.8G of protein/1lb of bodyweight was the most your muscles could benefit from per day and even this recommendation was on the high side. You could eat 0.5g protein/1lb of bodyweight and you'll be fine. There's a guy who did just this. He went from eating 1g protein /1lb bw, then to 0.6g protein/1lb bw, then finally to 0.5g protein/1lb of bw and he took before and after picture and he found no difference in his strength or his muscle mass.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210123120242/https://www.fitmole.org/1-gram-protein-cut/
I basically gave up on believing anything you wrote when you said supplement protein is inferior to protein from food sources. Though I did check out the link and the guy literally looks worse in the second picture, says he lost reps on an exercise, and can "definitely tell he lost some muscle". I don't find 1g/lb unmanageable whatsoever.
To be fair, he didn't say 1g/lb was unmanageable, just that it was an unnecessarily high amount.0 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »"Regarding the guy who reduced his protein, he didn't "just do this", that post is from several years ago, hence why it's archived on waybackmachine.
That's a fallacious statement. It happened a few years ago hence waybackmachine so it must be wrong and outdated. For one, many things happen in history and are still true today. Secondly, wayback machine is used to archive websites. You can find an archive of a website from today on that site. It's a great tool against censorship.
"He said himself he noticed some minor differences in appearance, though they could be attributed to lax intake regulation, it's not certain.:
Not certain? What was the whole article about? Article says, "What happened after I reduced my protein intake? Surprisingly, not much." Lax intake regulation? Yeah, he lowered his protein intake.
"He had already achieved a pretty decent physique and wanted to be able to have more lifestyle flexibility; good for him for finding a sustainable adjustment. BUT, using his n=1 as a reference for someone looking to enter a fat loss phase is misapplied."
Do you need to eat more protein during a calorie deficit? Yes protein is satiating but almost everyone will have trouble with getting 1g/1lb of bw into their system everyday, unless they buy protein powder.... You see. It's a trick. Even 0.8 is on the high end. See: http://www.jmaxfitness.com/blog/protein-intake/
Nothing beats real food and supplements are not real food. Maybe I should of clarified myself earlier, real whole food because supplements are processed "foods". Supplements are big business. Sure, there are cases where people need supplements and that's because they have a bad diet or some kind of health problem that makes it difficult to eat, but if you're healthy and just have a bad diet, fix the diet by eating the correct foods. Buying some expensive can of processed powder that is overkill (and who knows what all is in it, regulations?) doesn't make any sense. You have to ask yourself, why are they pushing very high daily protein intake? Because you will more likely buy the protein powder and they know this. It's all marketing trickery.
Even @steveko89 agrees at the end with his recommendation, "get 0.6g/lb protein as the minimum for daily intake."
It surprises me mightily when people say things like the bolded. I admit, my minimum is 0.8g/pound, but I routinely exceed it without eating protein powder/bars . . . as a freakin' vegetarian. I think I could do it fully plant based/vegan.
Unless an omnivore is cutting crazy hard, I don't see how 0.8-1g/lb of a healthy weight can be terrifically hard via food alone with meat/fish as options, if a person considers it a priority.
Whether it's essential, for whom, and why, is a different question.
You're a vegetarian, but say you weigh only like 120 lbs so 0.8 of that would be 96g of protein. Which is much lower than say 130g of protein but still, I would be surprised you get that much protein on vegetables alone without supplements. What are you eating that is so high in protein and how much of it? How many meals do you eat throughout the day? That's surprising to me. And yes, this would be in the cutting phase.
A cup of black beans has 16 grams of protein for a bit more than 200 calories. Tofu is 90 calories and 9 grams of protein per 3ish ounces (extra firm). That works out to 200 cals per 18 grams.
That is just about dead on par with greek yogurt at 17 grams for 141
Cottage cheese is 25 grams of protein for 220 calories. Which is on par for 4 ounces of 91 lean ground beef for 24 protein/200ish calories (which I know she doesn't eat, but still). Eggs are something 6 grams of protein/70 calories for the whole egg, 3.6 protein and 15 calories for just the white - whole eggs are again about 18 grams of protein per 200 calories.
She's vegetarian, not vegan. LOOOTS of stuff has a pretty good protein punch. Broccoli has protein, too. Add all that up and combine against relative high activity and a decent calorie budget, I don't see why it would be overly hard.
Disclosure - again, not vegetarian but I pretty easily hit 100 grams or so a day even days I don't touch meat. Greek yogurt and cottage cheese are usually fully HALF my daily protein, and sometimes carry all of it.1 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »wunderkindking wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »"Regarding the guy who reduced his protein, he didn't "just do this", that post is from several years ago, hence why it's archived on waybackmachine.
That's a fallacious statement. It happened a few years ago hence waybackmachine so it must be wrong and outdated. For one, many things happen in history and are still true today. Secondly, wayback machine is used to archive websites. You can find an archive of a website from today on that site. It's a great tool against censorship.
"He said himself he noticed some minor differences in appearance, though they could be attributed to lax intake regulation, it's not certain.:
Not certain? What was the whole article about? Article says, "What happened after I reduced my protein intake? Surprisingly, not much." Lax intake regulation? Yeah, he lowered his protein intake.
"He had already achieved a pretty decent physique and wanted to be able to have more lifestyle flexibility; good for him for finding a sustainable adjustment. BUT, using his n=1 as a reference for someone looking to enter a fat loss phase is misapplied."
Do you need to eat more protein during a calorie deficit? Yes protein is satiating but almost everyone will have trouble with getting 1g/1lb of bw into their system everyday, unless they buy protein powder.... You see. It's a trick. Even 0.8 is on the high end. See: http://www.jmaxfitness.com/blog/protein-intake/
Nothing beats real food and supplements are not real food. Maybe I should of clarified myself earlier, real whole food because supplements are processed "foods". Supplements are big business. Sure, there are cases where people need supplements and that's because they have a bad diet or some kind of health problem that makes it difficult to eat, but if you're healthy and just have a bad diet, fix the diet by eating the correct foods. Buying some expensive can of processed powder that is overkill (and who knows what all is in it, regulations?) doesn't make any sense. You have to ask yourself, why are they pushing very high daily protein intake? Because you will more likely buy the protein powder and they know this. It's all marketing trickery.
Even @steveko89 agrees at the end with his recommendation, "get 0.6g/lb protein as the minimum for daily intake."
It surprises me mightily when people say things like the bolded. I admit, my minimum is 0.8g/pound, but I routinely exceed it without eating protein powder/bars . . . as a freakin' vegetarian. I think I could do it fully plant based/vegan.
Unless an omnivore is cutting crazy hard, I don't see how 0.8-1g/lb of a healthy weight can be terrifically hard via food alone with meat/fish as options, if a person considers it a priority.
Whether it's essential, for whom, and why, is a different question.
You're a vegetarian, but say you weigh only like 120 lbs so 0.8 of that would be 96g of protein. Which is much lower than say 130g of protein but still, I would be surprised you get that much protein on vegetables alone without supplements. What are you eating that is so high in protein and how much of it? How many meals do you eat throughout the day? That's surprising to me. And yes, this would be in the cutting phase.
A cup of black beans has 16 grams of protein for a bit more than 200 calories. Tofu is 90 calories and 9 grams of protein per 3ish ounces (extra firm). That works out to 200 cals per 18 grams.
That is just about dead on par with greek yogurt at 17 grams for 141
Cottage cheese is 25 grams of protein for 220 calories. Which is on par for 4 ounces of 91 lean ground beef for 24 protein/200ish calories (which I know she doesn't eat, but still). Eggs are something 6 grams of protein/70 calories for the whole egg, 3.6 protein and 15 calories for just the white - whole eggs are again about 18 grams of protein per 200 calories.
She's vegetarian, not vegan. LOOOTS of stuff has a pretty good protein punch. Broccoli has protein, too. Add all that up and combine against relative high activity and a decent calorie budget, I don't see why it would be overly hard.
Disclosure - again, not vegetarian but I pretty easily hit 100 grams or so a day even days I don't touch meat. Greek yogurt and cottage cheese are usually fully HALF my daily protein, and sometimes carry all of it.
I didn't think vegetarians ate dairy.
Vegans don't eat animal products. Vegetarians do, just not meat/the animal itself. I don't know if Ann eats dairy exactly but vegetarian just means no meat.0 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »"Regarding the guy who reduced his protein, he didn't "just do this", that post is from several years ago, hence why it's archived on waybackmachine.
That's a fallacious statement. It happened a few years ago hence waybackmachine so it must be wrong and outdated. For one, many things happen in history and are still true today. Secondly, wayback machine is used to archive websites. You can find an archive of a website from today on that site. It's a great tool against censorship.
"He said himself he noticed some minor differences in appearance, though they could be attributed to lax intake regulation, it's not certain.:
Not certain? What was the whole article about? Article says, "What happened after I reduced my protein intake? Surprisingly, not much." Lax intake regulation? Yeah, he lowered his protein intake.
"He had already achieved a pretty decent physique and wanted to be able to have more lifestyle flexibility; good for him for finding a sustainable adjustment. BUT, using his n=1 as a reference for someone looking to enter a fat loss phase is misapplied."
Do you need to eat more protein during a calorie deficit? Yes protein is satiating but almost everyone will have trouble with getting 1g/1lb of bw into their system everyday, unless they buy protein powder.... You see. It's a trick. Even 0.8 is on the high end. See: http://www.jmaxfitness.com/blog/protein-intake/
Nothing beats real food and supplements are not real food. Maybe I should of clarified myself earlier, real whole food because supplements are processed "foods". Supplements are big business. Sure, there are cases where people need supplements and that's because they have a bad diet or some kind of health problem that makes it difficult to eat, but if you're healthy and just have a bad diet, fix the diet by eating the correct foods. Buying some expensive can of processed powder that is overkill (and who knows what all is in it, regulations?) doesn't make any sense. You have to ask yourself, why are they pushing very high daily protein intake? Because you will more likely buy the protein powder and they know this. It's all marketing trickery.
Even @steveko89 agrees at the end with his recommendation, "get 0.6g/lb protein as the minimum for daily intake."
It surprises me mightily when people say things like the bolded. I admit, my minimum is 0.8g/pound, but I routinely exceed it without eating protein powder/bars . . . as a freakin' vegetarian. I think I could do it fully plant based/vegan.
Unless an omnivore is cutting crazy hard, I don't see how 0.8-1g/lb of a healthy weight can be terrifically hard via food alone with meat/fish as options, if a person considers it a priority.
Whether it's essential, for whom, and why, is a different question.
You're a vegetarian, but say you weigh only like 120 lbs so 0.8 of that would be 96g of protein. Which is much lower than say 130g of protein but still, I would be surprised you get that much protein on vegetables alone without supplements. What are you eating that is so high in protein and how much of it? How many meals do you eat throughout the day? That's surprising to me. And yes, this would be in the cutting phase.
My profile's out of date, if that's where the 120 came from: I've intentionally moved to 125. Even at 120, I was eating 100g protein minimum, nice round number, easy to remember, I figure my true LBM may be more like 90 pounds (estimates, not DEXA), probably (I'm old, 65, but I think not devoid of muscle for my demographic).
I'm ovo-lacto veg. I don't eat many eggs, but do eat quite a bit of dairy (also available to omnivores, unless intolerant), legumes, soy foods (traditional soy foods; don't like faux meats), seitan super occasionally, some seeds/nuts (calorie dense, though!), etc. It varies a lot day to day. Since a fair fraction of my protein sources are plants (potential for lower EAA completeness, without getting into the weeds on details), I figure erring on the high side is a better plan. Though we now realize it's not essential to combine amino acid profiles all in one meal to get to EAA-completeness, I've been vegetarian long enough to have a feel for protein complementarity, and do try to vary protein sources to help that picture. If I were trying to hit 100g protein fully plant-based, I'd need to up the soy foods as a fraction of my eating, probably.
Last few days' protein grams per MFP logging are 119, 122, 131, 107, and those were all days eating within calorie goal (currently 1850+exercise).
I lose very slowly sticking to that 1850+exercise calories (but have occasional over 1850 days when maintaining to average out); 100g protein is only 400 calories of that base goal on a no-exercise day . . . it doesn't seem that hard, after some refinement and practice.
I figure a good source of protein (in my situation) is a single food with around 10 (all macro sources) calories (+/-) per gram of protein, a complex multi-ingredient cooked dish maybe 20-30 calories per protein gram. I used those rules of thumb to tweak my eating, get my protein where I wanted it, when first losing weight/maintaining. (I did eat between 0.6-0.8 sometimes while losing faster, from obese to healthy weight - just fewer calories in play.) I try to get at least a little protein in most things I eat, in addition to some main protein source in each meal, because small amounts add up.
Since some fish seems to be in the 4-8 calories per protein gram range, chicken maybe around 6 calories per protein gram, etc., plus omnivores can eat all the foods that I can eat as a veg, it seems like it would be easier as an omnivore. I dunno; I haven't been an omnivore since 1974.
I'm not super compulsively structured about meal/snack numbers or timing. Usually I eat 3 meals, maybe a couple of smaller snacks, but it can be 2 or 4 meals, anything from zero snacks to off-and-on all-day graze.
You sound anti-processed foods, from some other comments? I don't have any strict principles about that, but most of what I eat is what most people would call whole foods, with some traditional processed foods that have a long history of human consumption (such as yogurt, cheese, tofu, tempeh, seitan, etc.). I'll have the occasional highly processed thing (I guess, depending on what people mean by that), and a few modern processed foods that seem reasonable to me (like legume pastas), but it's not the core of my eating.
In addition the 100g protein minimum (which it's very rare for me to lowball), I have a 50g fat minimum, 5x80g servings veggies/fruit minimum (but try for 10+ servings most days), sort of my personal rules of thumb for desirable nutrition.
I mean, if an omnivore says it's hard for him/her to get as much protein as 0.8g/pound of a healthy weight, I believe that person. "Hard" is individual. I just can't wrap my head around why/how it would be that hard - my cognitive limitation, I admit. Yes, bigger people than I am need more protein grams, but also are typically going to have higher calorie allowances, it seems like. I'm pretty sympathetic to people my size or smaller, who can have much smaller calorie allowances for one reason or another, so less wiggle room. Like I said, it's individual.
But I do disagree with your "almost everyone will have trouble with getting 1g/1lb of bw into their system everyday, unless they buy protein powder", if protein is a priority for them. Some people do seem to have trouble with it, sure. Almost everyone? I'm doubtful.
(And, for clarity, I don't think there's anything wrong with using protein supplements, I just don't personally find them tasty or satisfying, don't prefer to eat that way.)1 -
P.S. To the thread's OP: Apologies for the digression from your thread.
In your shoes, with your goals, I'd probably go with a small deficit, 0.6-0.8g protein minimum per pound of healthy bodyweight (or 0.8-1g per pound of LBM if you have a good LBM estimate), 0.35-0.45g fats per pound of bodyweight, plenty of varied/colorful veggies & fruits. I don't avoid carbs, but if you prefer to keep them lower, and energy level is fine, why not?
Many people get enough fats without attention, probably especially true for those eating low carb, but I have to watch that . . . and I think women may need a bit more than men do, though I can't reproduce for you how I reached that conviction.0 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »wunderkindking wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »tictoerest1 wrote: »"Regarding the guy who reduced his protein, he didn't "just do this", that post is from several years ago, hence why it's archived on waybackmachine.
That's a fallacious statement. It happened a few years ago hence waybackmachine so it must be wrong and outdated. For one, many things happen in history and are still true today. Secondly, wayback machine is used to archive websites. You can find an archive of a website from today on that site. It's a great tool against censorship.
"He said himself he noticed some minor differences in appearance, though they could be attributed to lax intake regulation, it's not certain.:
Not certain? What was the whole article about? Article says, "What happened after I reduced my protein intake? Surprisingly, not much." Lax intake regulation? Yeah, he lowered his protein intake.
"He had already achieved a pretty decent physique and wanted to be able to have more lifestyle flexibility; good for him for finding a sustainable adjustment. BUT, using his n=1 as a reference for someone looking to enter a fat loss phase is misapplied."
Do you need to eat more protein during a calorie deficit? Yes protein is satiating but almost everyone will have trouble with getting 1g/1lb of bw into their system everyday, unless they buy protein powder.... You see. It's a trick. Even 0.8 is on the high end. See: http://www.jmaxfitness.com/blog/protein-intake/
Nothing beats real food and supplements are not real food. Maybe I should of clarified myself earlier, real whole food because supplements are processed "foods". Supplements are big business. Sure, there are cases where people need supplements and that's because they have a bad diet or some kind of health problem that makes it difficult to eat, but if you're healthy and just have a bad diet, fix the diet by eating the correct foods. Buying some expensive can of processed powder that is overkill (and who knows what all is in it, regulations?) doesn't make any sense. You have to ask yourself, why are they pushing very high daily protein intake? Because you will more likely buy the protein powder and they know this. It's all marketing trickery.
Even @steveko89 agrees at the end with his recommendation, "get 0.6g/lb protein as the minimum for daily intake."
It surprises me mightily when people say things like the bolded. I admit, my minimum is 0.8g/pound, but I routinely exceed it without eating protein powder/bars . . . as a freakin' vegetarian. I think I could do it fully plant based/vegan.
Unless an omnivore is cutting crazy hard, I don't see how 0.8-1g/lb of a healthy weight can be terrifically hard via food alone with meat/fish as options, if a person considers it a priority.
Whether it's essential, for whom, and why, is a different question.
You're a vegetarian, but say you weigh only like 120 lbs so 0.8 of that would be 96g of protein. Which is much lower than say 130g of protein but still, I would be surprised you get that much protein on vegetables alone without supplements. What are you eating that is so high in protein and how much of it? How many meals do you eat throughout the day? That's surprising to me. And yes, this would be in the cutting phase.
A cup of black beans has 16 grams of protein for a bit more than 200 calories. Tofu is 90 calories and 9 grams of protein per 3ish ounces (extra firm). That works out to 200 cals per 18 grams.
That is just about dead on par with greek yogurt at 17 grams for 141
Cottage cheese is 25 grams of protein for 220 calories. Which is on par for 4 ounces of 91 lean ground beef for 24 protein/200ish calories (which I know she doesn't eat, but still). Eggs are something 6 grams of protein/70 calories for the whole egg, 3.6 protein and 15 calories for just the white - whole eggs are again about 18 grams of protein per 200 calories.
She's vegetarian, not vegan. LOOOTS of stuff has a pretty good protein punch. Broccoli has protein, too. Add all that up and combine against relative high activity and a decent calorie budget, I don't see why it would be overly hard.
Disclosure - again, not vegetarian but I pretty easily hit 100 grams or so a day even days I don't touch meat. Greek yogurt and cottage cheese are usually fully HALF my daily protein, and sometimes carry all of it.
I didn't think vegetarians ate dairy.
IMU, technically:
Ovo-lacto vegetarian: Eats eggs and dairy, no meat or fish/seafood.
Lacto vegetarian: Eats dairy, no eggs.
Strict vegetarian or fully plant-based eater: Eats no dairy, no eggs; vary on things like honey or foods like regular commercial sugar that are processed with animal products, but don't strictly contain them.
Vegan: Avoids eating and other life choices that exploit or harm animals, to the extent practical, usually including avoiding eating things like honey, eating foods processed using animal-sourced inputs, wearing leather or the like, etc.
"Vegetarian but eats fish" = not vegetarian, rather pescatarian, but thinks it's cooler to be vegetarian for some reason. 🙄 (It's not. 😉)0 -
tictoerest1 wrote: »@AnnPT77 I don't think of dairy as processed food. Yeah, I know, it's processed to a degree, but for the most part it's natural and whole besides all the gmo grain fed to cows and whether those farmers take that no growth hormone pledge seriously, marketing? When I think of processed food I think of those packaged foods with a ton of ingredients with chemical sounding names or deli meat. I'll get Rotisserie chicken sometimes, but I'm sure whatever they brine the chicken with is full of junk. I'm currently in a caloric deficit and so I have to be careful with protein rich food because the fat calories can add up if beef or nuts are involved. I eat three times a day and have maybe a couple snacks.
I started my caloric deficit about a month an half ago and also changed my diet greatly. I cut out a lot of junk like the occasional pizza, chocolate, cookies, and that every once in awhile pastry. I was also eating multigrain cheerios for breakfast. I cut that garbage out and switched it out with oatmeal. I also cut out slice bread. I realized that slice bread isn't worth eating because it's not that great to begin with. Unless you're eating fresh bread, all the packaged slice breads at the groceries are full of junk ingredients like dough conditioners, etc. They don't taste any good. Why eat them? Just so I can have a sandwich? So I got rid of that. That made a lot of sense. So I would say my carb intake went down a good amount as well as overall calorie intake and I noticed in the gym. My strength was zapped and no more jumping up in weights as fast as before. Of course that was to be expected and I've got accustomed to it. So now I'm on a mission to get rid of the fat. It's been smooth sailing so far, but it's much tougher in the gym to be on a deficit and try to make gains. I just started going to the gym again about a couple month ago so I'm in noob stage. I've lost close to 15 lbs and I would like to lose another 15 lbs. If that's not lean enough I may go lower. Then I'll start increasing calories.
I know this is a total tangent to the OP (apologies to the individual involved).
I feel like you're making this a little too . . . arbitrary? And maybe not using your body's feedback? Maybe even targeting too-fast loss, though I'm not 100% clear on your stats from the above?
Maybe it's just my particular weird view of the world, but I don't see the point of classifying foods as good or bad, junk/garbage or somehow virtuous. Eating is not an epic melodrama about good and evil: It's just food. We need some.
Reasonable calorie level is important; overall nutrition is important. By "overall nutrition", I mean reasonable macro totals on average, close to macro and calorie goals most days; reasonable fiber; well-rounded micros (plenty of varied, colorful veggie/fruit servings is a proxy for micros IMO). Which exact foods you eat to get there is flexible, IMO.
To me, worrying about cheerios vs. oatmeal or sliced bread per se is tangential, a distraction, I think. What are the macros of the cheerios or bread? How do those fill out (or not) your nutritional goals? If things don't taste good, that's relevant, of course. There are lots of ways to hit your macros/micros/fiber/calories . . . some of them probably taste good (which is subjective) and are practical (affordable, easy to cook, etc.). Pizza is not the devil: Properly topped, it's got protein, veggies, fiber. Sure, it can be calorie dense, but some pizza alongside a big ol' salad is a very reasonable meal. A well-balanced life needs to be happy and sustainable, too, y'know?
Honestly, if you have less energy on lower carbs, why would you eat lower carbs (as long as your protein and fat are hitting reasonable minimums)? Sure, prioritize more nutrient-dense carbs, like veggies, fruits, legumes, whole grains, whatever. But if your body's saying "gimme carbs" and sulking via low energy . . . give it carbs, man. It's talking to you. I've eaten just under 50% carbs all the way through weight loss and maintenance: They're not evil, and you don't need to tank your energy level.
You can lose fat without suffering, without losing noticeable energy, probably feeling better not worse . . . with only 15 pounds to lose you should be going slowSLOW anyway, like half a pound a week.
If you want to discuss this more, start a thread and tag me, or friend me and send me a PM. I feel like you're making it harder to reach your goals than it strictly needs to be. Hang in there, you can do this, and it can be easier, I'm pretty sure.
Again, apologies to the OP for digressing!4
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