How do you feel about fleece?

Fleece as far as my definition is concerned is wool from sheep and goats mostly. Apparently it's also a micro fiber after googling. How many man made things effect our environment, pretty much everything. I'm tackling and have been for a dozen years to reduce my carbon footprint which unknown to me includes fleece.

And I totally understand Margaret's argument. There is no easy solution for micro plastics when compared to the progress of humankind in general. The total amount of people brought out of poverty and increased lifespan is the upside of progress. Maybe a genius is in the population of people that now enjoy a higher standard of living, is getting an education and will contribute to a solution, because we humans are good at that.

This question is all about trade-offs for me. Because this question could be expanded to include any synthetic fiber — polyester, nylon, polypropylene — it’s impossible for me to imagine truly enjoying the outdoors without somehow creating a footprint.

Based on the OP, it’s undeniable plastics (with a large chunk of that being micro plastics) are the largest contributor to ocean pollution and through natural processes are being spread to the terrestrial environment. Micro plastic (well any plastic) absorb harmful chemicals that degrade the environment with impacts to natural resources we, as humans, rely on and should recognized as indicators of our own health. I personally am unable to separate humans from the environment where most people I know consider themselves outside natural processes, observers, or are generally uninterested so long as their lights still come on everyday… anyway…

So the trade-offs for me personally lie beyond the wearing of fleece or my nylon bivy bag and this becomes a long, uninteresting (to many) internal conversation about fabric manufacturing in general and use - is natural better? Maybe? I guess that depends on your personal definition. But the local impacts from things like synthetic chemicals used to treat cotton fields, for example, are not any less harmful in the near-term; where plastics persevere in the environment for what feels like perpetuity. I also think about things like, harsh dyes used and other chemicals; energy used to make, market, package, and transport the product; fair compensation… I’ll stop, before I continue to go further astray.

Ultimately, like I said, it’s trade-offs. Sure I could use my canvas bedroll made from linen instead of the bivy bag but it’s much heavier. I could give up the fleece I wear under my dry suit and hope to find something natural that is as warm and comfortable. Instead, I try and make informed purchases from retailers with “more responsible” practices (e.g., using recycled material, lower carbon footprints) that allow me to enjoy the outside world with as few, long-term impacts as possible.

I feel, unlike others, that my personal choices may feel insignificant, as I’m one person, but the cumulative of changes can be significant. My values may be colored as a NWerner, and as a collective group it seems we put a high value on enjoying and preserving the abundance of natural beauty, outdoor recreation, and open spaces we are ultimately spoiled to be surrounded by. I feel a responsibility to do what I can to ensure future generations are also afforded the same opportunities. This doesn’t come without some level of hypocrisy I’m willing to live with, however.

This is how I feel about fleece:D
https://youtu.be/MvgN5gCuLac

penguinmama87 wrote: »

mtaratoot wrote: »

The aquarium where I volunteer used to use fleece jackets as uniform pieces. I have a vest and a jacket I have worn for over eight years. A couple years ago they switched to cotton blend hoodies. Not as warm. Not warm when wet. They focus on education about the marine environment and decided to switch.

I have a few other fleece jackets. They will get worn until they wear out -- maybe longer. One of them already has some holes. I probably won't buy any more. Fleece in particular seems to shed microplastic more than other synthetic fabrics. What would be great is if we would get them out of other consumer goods where they are added intentionally.

We can point to industry as the problem. That is a bit of a cop-out. Each of us has the responsibility to do all we can to contribute. Some friends fly a lot more than I do. They justify it by saying the plane is going anyway. Well only if there are passengers. When they don't fly it's two fewer passengers. When enough people don't buy a ticket then the flight will be cancelled.

The solution to single-use bottles is to quit making them. Putting them to a second use is great; just not as good.

This is where I disagree - I think each of us has the responsibility to do what is reasonable given our position, not "all we can." That might very well be what you mean depending on how you interpret the ability. But people can reasonably disagree about the best course of action given a certain set of circumstances, and it isn't easy to look at someone else's life and accurately assess what they can or cannot do.

My faith tradition has an understanding of this called "remote material cooperation." The further you are from the decision to do the wrong thing, the less culpability you have for participating in it. There are some circumstances where cooperation in some kind of evil, even rather major ones, is just...unavoidable. How and what we consume is a big part of that in today's economy. I try very hard not to be wasteful. It suits my personal strengths. But I can't personally verify the sourcing of every fabric I bring home to make sure it was produced in a sustainable way (according to whom? reasonable folks can disagree!) or with ethical labor practices. I also don't have the time or technical skill to weave or spin my own material or even sew all my own clothes, though I can mend them. If I tried, I would literally do nothing else, and it would get in the way of my primary duties in life to my family. What I can do is buy only what my family needs (and I take a pretty severe understanding of that - see my post above), repair and care for it well, and as @cmriverside mentioned I do a lot of secondhand shopping too, which extends the life of a lot of products that would otherwise be destined for garbage even with a lot of life left in them. At the same time, I don't feel a particular responsibility to rescue every single potentially useful object from that fate, because that's not my job.

It's not a cop out. It's prioritizing. Some people will be called to take up this work to effect the systemic change needed for these things. I will commend them for it! But it's not my particular calling, and I am OK with that too.

Reckon we will disagree then. Because if you know that purchasing synthetic fleece contributes to marine pollution and, ultimately might devastate the entire food web of the ocean (small organisms eat the plastic, and it can kill them directly or they can be eaten by primary predators and on up the food chain so larger organisms have their guts filled up with non-food that they can't eliminate), then you are directly culpable. There are other options. The idea that fleece is OK because it's made from recycled bottles is greenwashing. The answer is that plastic bottles should be used way more than once and discarded. Even with recycling available, most single-use plastics end up in a landfill or incinerator. If you have no idea that synthetic fleece poses a hazard to organisms we share the planet with, you aren't as culpable. But now you know.

That said, I will continue to wear the fleece I already own, so I'm culpable too. I know that landfills, specifically the one my waste goes to, takes leachate to the wastewater treatment plant to be released eventually to the river. Putting something in the landfill isn't "away."

The good thing is that there are alternative fabrics. At some point, we may find out that they pose a risk, too.

I think there's something to your faith tradition and how far away you are from the "sin." If someone buys a synthetic fleece from a second-hand shop, that fleece already exists. Someone will wear it. On the other hand, that other person might still go buy a fleece jacket, so who even knows how far away that is. I know that there won't be any more fleece coming into my ownership.

I didn't know this. Uh-oh. I live in a very cold climate and own a great deal of fleece. I'm allergic to wool and feathers (down).

I absolutely agree where we can, we should take care of our environment but those are my personal values. I believe we are only borrowing this world from future generations and taking care of it is important.

With the knowledge I have, I also understand that I’m a hypocrite because there is way more I could do, but I also like some of my creature comforts.

I had an environmental law professor in college that drove an old clunker and one of the other students pointed out an oil leak. With a shrug the professor said, “if this is your career choice, you need to be comfortable with your own hypocracies. I am.” Cop out? Maybe but also some of the wisest words I heard in my college career. …point, we all have our own knowledge and choices but in the end, we may not be able to do everything for any number of reasons/excuses. So, enjoy your truck and take comfort that you are doing more than some …because you can and it’s important to you. 😊

Sorry for derailing the conversation from the initial topic and questions asked!

AnnPT77 wrote: »

I don't care much for fleece, just feels-preference, but I do own a couple or three things, some of which were gifts or hand-me-downs post weight loss.

I think I'm pretty close to penguinmama87, opinion-wise.

This whole question, for me, falls under my general guiding principle that we wealthy (in global/historical terms) people are unavoidably little bundles of moving harm to the world: Economic harm, ecological harm, harm to animals, harm to other humans elsewhere, and more. Further, as others have observed, it's often a matter of differing relative harms in different domains, or harms that even experts argue over which of multiple options is worse.

In this context, I feel all a trying-to-be-decent person can do is to minimize the harms they can, as best they understand them, starting with the ones that are easiest for them personally.

Since I don't much like fleece, I'm not buying any new fleece clothing (easy for me), will still accept gifts graciously, or maybe buy used.

How important is that new micro grid fleece in the extra-special color, to you? 😉

I don't necessarily disagree with the bolded, but it put me in mind of something related to this discussion so I'm going to use it as a springboard for my point - hope that's OK with you, @AnnPT77 !

I agree that humans can cause a lot of harm, but I don't think that's the full picture, and it makes me discouraged that it seems to be a default underlying, unquestioned assumption in many discussions about environmental policy and personal behaviors (and again, I'm not saying you're saying this, Ann, it just put me in mind of the idea since we were skating toward it anyway) - the idea that human existence overall has been a Big Bad Negative for the planet, and our job is to make it as if we never existed at all - that when we die, we need to have done as much as we could to have our existence erased. It's a weird kind of species-wide self-loathing I just can't get behind at all.

I do think it's important that we try to mitigate harm, including unintentional harm, to a reasonable degree based on our abilities and circumstances, but I think to focus only on the harm ignores the great capacity for genuine good, too. Humans may have caused some of these problems, but we have also come up with solutions for some of these problems and other problems that aren't a result of our own behavior individually or as a species. Again, I think in part because of my faith background, I tend to take a stewardship approach. Unlike other species, humans have the advantage of free will and the ability to think critically about our behavior. Other species can and do devastate ecosystems without any awareness of it at all. Our capacity for that is rather greater, but we can also reverse course if we choose to, and IMO that's very, very good.

mtaratoot wrote: »

penguinmama87 wrote: »

mtaratoot wrote: »

The aquarium where I volunteer used to use fleece jackets as uniform pieces. I have a vest and a jacket I have worn for over eight years. A couple years ago they switched to cotton blend hoodies. Not as warm. Not warm when wet. They focus on education about the marine environment and decided to switch.

I have a few other fleece jackets. They will get worn until they wear out -- maybe longer. One of them already has some holes. I probably won't buy any more. Fleece in particular seems to shed microplastic more than other synthetic fabrics. What would be great is if we would get them out of other consumer goods where they are added intentionally.

We can point to industry as the problem. That is a bit of a cop-out. Each of us has the responsibility to do all we can to contribute. Some friends fly a lot more than I do. They justify it by saying the plane is going anyway. Well only if there are passengers. When they don't fly it's two fewer passengers. When enough people don't buy a ticket then the flight will be cancelled.

The solution to single-use bottles is to quit making them. Putting them to a second use is great; just not as good.

This is where I disagree - I think each of us has the responsibility to do what is reasonable given our position, not "all we can." That might very well be what you mean depending on how you interpret the ability. But people can reasonably disagree about the best course of action given a certain set of circumstances, and it isn't easy to look at someone else's life and accurately assess what they can or cannot do.

My faith tradition has an understanding of this called "remote material cooperation." The further you are from the decision to do the wrong thing, the less culpability you have for participating in it. There are some circumstances where cooperation in some kind of evil, even rather major ones, is just...unavoidable. How and what we consume is a big part of that in today's economy. I try very hard not to be wasteful. It suits my personal strengths. But I can't personally verify the sourcing of every fabric I bring home to make sure it was produced in a sustainable way (according to whom? reasonable folks can disagree!) or with ethical labor practices. I also don't have the time or technical skill to weave or spin my own material or even sew all my own clothes, though I can mend them. If I tried, I would literally do nothing else, and it would get in the way of my primary duties in life to my family. What I can do is buy only what my family needs (and I take a pretty severe understanding of that - see my post above), repair and care for it well, and as @cmriverside mentioned I do a lot of secondhand shopping too, which extends the life of a lot of products that would otherwise be destined for garbage even with a lot of life left in them. At the same time, I don't feel a particular responsibility to rescue every single potentially useful object from that fate, because that's not my job.

It's not a cop out. It's prioritizing. Some people will be called to take up this work to effect the systemic change needed for these things. I will commend them for it! But it's not my particular calling, and I am OK with that too.

Reckon we will disagree then. Because if you know that purchasing synthetic fleece contributes to marine pollution and, ultimately might devastate the entire food web of the ocean (small organisms eat the plastic, and it can kill them directly or they can be eaten by primary predators and on up the food chain so larger organisms have their guts filled up with non-food that they can't eliminate), then you are directly culpable. There are other options. The idea that fleece is OK because it's made from recycled bottles is greenwashing. The answer is that plastic bottles should be used way more than once and discarded. Even with recycling available, most single-use plastics end up in a landfill or incinerator. If you have no idea that synthetic fleece poses a hazard to organisms we share the planet with, you aren't as culpable. But now you know.

That said, I will continue to wear the fleece I already own, so I'm culpable too. I know that landfills, specifically the one my waste goes to, takes leachate to the wastewater treatment plant to be released eventually to the river. Putting something in the landfill isn't "away."

The good thing is that there are alternative fabrics. At some point, we may find out that they pose a risk, too.

I think there's something to your faith tradition and how far away you are from the "sin." If someone buys a synthetic fleece from a second-hand shop, that fleece already exists. Someone will wear it. On the other hand, that other person might still go buy a fleece jacket, so who even knows how far away that is. I know that there won't be any more fleece coming into my ownership.

Are you speaking generally here? Because I've already stated that I don't personally buy fleece new. I actually don't care much for it anyway, so I haven't owned fleece for myself in a number of years. But relatives have gifted the kids items and I do let them wear them rather than donate them - and an item bought for my oldest kid is probably going to go through at least two and up to five kids first before it makes it out of my house, unless it's just absolutely awful. (I did give away a fleece sheet set that was given to us because I draw the line at my kids putting their faces right on it and breathing it in for 8-9 hours every night.)

I do take issue with the idea that somehow, my actions aren't enough if I don't feel guilty on top of it. I don't know that my personal feelings really have much to do with it - they might serve as a warning system for me to check my own behavior, but what I actually do is going to have to come after reasoning my way through it. I say this as a "recovering perfectionist" who used to feel paralyzed by guilt and would do absolutely nothing for fear of not doing the 100% perfect correct thing. Other people may come at this from the other end and need a little internal push, and perhaps that's what you're saying. If I'm misreading, then I apologize.