Cognisant self-sabotage - how to avoid it...
Bella_Figura
Posts: 4,332 Member
Folks, I'm seeking your wisdom and insight.
Though I'm probably a year away from needing to worry about maintenance, I'm already putting a lot of thought into my maintenance strategy/plan, because I've been down this road before (at least 5 times). I'm a very successful loser, and an even more successful rebound gainer.
This time around I'm formulating a maintenance plan, and I think it's a pretty good, balanced one. It includes goals for tracking, nutrition, exercise, NEAT, mindfulness, sustainability etc., and tactics for addressing and hopefully ameliorating the psychological, metabolic and physiological challenges that I'll face as someone who will have lost over 40% of my starting body weight. I have some confidence in the plan (though of course only time will tell).
Back in 2012/13 I lost 40% of my body weight (from 100kg to 60kg), to reach the top of the healthy BMI range for someone of my height. It took me 18 months to lose the 40kg - I lost 35kg in 12 months at a rate of 0.7kg a week, and the remaining 5kg took the next 6 months. It was a long, disciplined, sustained effort. I was proud of myself, and was sure that I had all the tools to make maintenance a breeze. Hmmm. Pride comes before a fall. Within 2 years I'd gained all but 4kg back.
I regained with my eyes wide open. Pretty much every morning I'd sit on the edge of the bed poking my ever-increasing fat rolls, and say 'you've got to stop this! You're so going to regret regaining all this fat, after all the effort it took you to lose it!' I'd open my wardrobe and sigh at the clothes that were getting tighter and tighter. I'd notice myself getting breathless when walking, and my knees hurting when I walked upstairs. I'd remind myself that I'm in a high-risk group for diabetes. I was aware that I'd restarted snoring, and sleeping poorly.
My weight didn't creep up without me noticing - I noticed fully. I just felt like I had no volition. I felt almost detached from the process, as if I was watching someone else's meltdown. I abdicated control, self-discipline, self-esteem, responsibility and accountability - fully recognising that I was doing so, and that I'd bitterly regret it further down the road.
What I wouldn't give to understand why that happened. I know regain is a common problem, and I've done my research about the various physiological, metabolic and psychological reasons why that's the case. But I'd really like to understand why my brain detached itself from taking responsibility for the issue so completely, when I was fully cognisant and aware of what was happening.
Can anyone explain it?
Though I'm probably a year away from needing to worry about maintenance, I'm already putting a lot of thought into my maintenance strategy/plan, because I've been down this road before (at least 5 times). I'm a very successful loser, and an even more successful rebound gainer.
This time around I'm formulating a maintenance plan, and I think it's a pretty good, balanced one. It includes goals for tracking, nutrition, exercise, NEAT, mindfulness, sustainability etc., and tactics for addressing and hopefully ameliorating the psychological, metabolic and physiological challenges that I'll face as someone who will have lost over 40% of my starting body weight. I have some confidence in the plan (though of course only time will tell).
Back in 2012/13 I lost 40% of my body weight (from 100kg to 60kg), to reach the top of the healthy BMI range for someone of my height. It took me 18 months to lose the 40kg - I lost 35kg in 12 months at a rate of 0.7kg a week, and the remaining 5kg took the next 6 months. It was a long, disciplined, sustained effort. I was proud of myself, and was sure that I had all the tools to make maintenance a breeze. Hmmm. Pride comes before a fall. Within 2 years I'd gained all but 4kg back.
I regained with my eyes wide open. Pretty much every morning I'd sit on the edge of the bed poking my ever-increasing fat rolls, and say 'you've got to stop this! You're so going to regret regaining all this fat, after all the effort it took you to lose it!' I'd open my wardrobe and sigh at the clothes that were getting tighter and tighter. I'd notice myself getting breathless when walking, and my knees hurting when I walked upstairs. I'd remind myself that I'm in a high-risk group for diabetes. I was aware that I'd restarted snoring, and sleeping poorly.
My weight didn't creep up without me noticing - I noticed fully. I just felt like I had no volition. I felt almost detached from the process, as if I was watching someone else's meltdown. I abdicated control, self-discipline, self-esteem, responsibility and accountability - fully recognising that I was doing so, and that I'd bitterly regret it further down the road.
What I wouldn't give to understand why that happened. I know regain is a common problem, and I've done my research about the various physiological, metabolic and psychological reasons why that's the case. But I'd really like to understand why my brain detached itself from taking responsibility for the issue so completely, when I was fully cognisant and aware of what was happening.
Can anyone explain it?
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Replies
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Bella_Figura wrote: »Folks, I'm seeking your wisdom and insight.
Though I'm probably a year away from needing to worry about maintenance, I'm already putting a lot of thought into my maintenance strategy/plan, because I've been down this road before (at least 5 times). I'm a very successful loser, and an even more successful rebound gainer.
This time around I'm formulating a maintenance plan, and I think it's a pretty good, balanced one. It includes goals for tracking, nutrition, exercise, NEAT, mindfulness, sustainability etc., and tactics for addressing and hopefully ameliorating the psychological, metabolic and physiological challenges that I'll face as someone who will have lost over 40% of my starting body weight. I have some confidence in the plan (though of course only time will tell).
Back in 2012/13 I lost 40% of my body weight (from 100kg to 60kg), to reach the top of the healthy BMI range for someone of my height. It took me 18 months to lose the 40kg - I lost 35kg in 12 months at a rate of 0.7kg a week, and the remaining 5kg took the next 6 months. It was a long, disciplined, sustained effort. I was proud of myself, and was sure that I had all the tools to make maintenance a breeze. Hmmm. Pride comes before a fall. Within 2 years I'd gained all but 4kg back.
I regained with my eyes wide open. Pretty much every morning I'd sit on the edge of the bed poking my ever-increasing fat rolls, and say 'you've got to stop this! You're so going to regret regaining all this fat, after all the effort it took you to lose it!' I'd open my wardrobe and sigh at the clothes that were getting tighter and tighter. I'd notice myself getting breathless when walking, and my knees hurting when I walked upstairs. I'd remind myself that I'm in a high-risk group for diabetes. I was aware that I'd restarted snoring, and sleeping poorly.
My weight didn't creep up without me noticing - I noticed fully. I just felt like I had no volition. I felt almost detached from the process, as if I was watching someone else's meltdown. I abdicated control, self-discipline, self-esteem, responsibility and accountability - fully recognising that I was doing so, and that I'd bitterly regret it further down the road.
What I wouldn't give to understand why that happened. I know regain is a common problem, and I've done my research about the various physiological, metabolic and psychological reasons why that's the case. But I'd really like to understand why my brain detached itself from taking responsibility for the issue so completely, when I was fully cognisant and aware of what was happening.
Can anyone explain it?
To be blunt: are you really successful at losing weight if you're putting it all back on repeatedly? Losing that much that fast is probably where you're going wrong. I've lost 54 kg (44% of my starting weight) , mostly deliberately slowly, over the past 4.5 years. I learned that going too fast invoked overeating, whether it was after weeks or months of over restriction. Whilst I never ballooned up again more than maybe 5 kg, over restriction and the thought that I needed to lose faster definitely held me back and it was not a good way to develop good eating practises. I feel confident now I've done it slowly enough and developed a healthy relationship with food along the way to keep me going like this forever. So I suppose go slower is my advice. What's the rush?8 -
Hi, this is a very broad topic, and I can only speak from my own journey, but it has been similar.
For me, two things have happened in parallel:
- personal frustrations/unhappiness ... resulting in 'emotional eating'
- Emotional eating with Highly processed food (fast food) and alcohol, both of which are highly addictive.
The core of that was/is the pleasure we derive from eating fast food that has been designed to trigger our pleasure points. Pleasure is the opposite of happiness - the best description of that mechanism comes from Robert Lustig (e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu9BU74TtLs, but I recommend all his books/videos)
If we feel down (or sometimes when we are happy), we do like the pleasure that certain foods give us. It is impossible not to. The problem with dopamine (the 'pleasure' hormone, vs serotonin, the 'happiness' hormone), is that pleasure wears off and we need more of it.
So for me it was all about cutting out processed food - that started with fast food, but I also cut out all pre-processed food (like ready made soups or dishes), and massively cut down on restaurant eating.
Thats another source I used: https://pfa.mykajabi.com/ or https://www.processedfoodaddiction.com/processed-food-addiction
I also started to take light anti-depressant medication.
So in summary, I think it is *very* though to lose weight and change a lifestyle - note that nothing of above had to do with willpower or calorie counting. Willpower is a finite resource and I do not think it's the right model for lifestyle change.
The food environment is really stacked against us and real food is in my opinion the answer, not calorie counting on processed food.
As I said, I only want to speak to my own experience, and others will have had other experiences. But I think the resources on food addiction and Robert Lustig's explanation on hormones and metabolism will be helpful.
I am not a doctor but I do have many years experience in gaining weight
Hope these thoughts helped
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I've lost and regained several times in the past, with the same sense of being aware but detached from the process of regaining and feeling unable to stop it. I think, for me, the psychological reason I allow myself to regain is a fear of failure and a fear of change. When I'm overweight I have an excuse to stay inside my comfort zone, I don't attempt new challenges and don't seek opportunities. I avoid social situations, never dress up or put myself out there. Because i feel like I'm not good enough to try so why bother.
When I've lost the weight my main excuse for not trying anything new has gone and it scares the crap out of me. I feel like an imposter and fear that I will find myself out of my depth and humiliated so I run in the other direction.
But that's just me.13 -
So, this may be useless - but I think most of what you're going to get here are personal thoughts/experiences for you to contemplate and pick through, so I'm tossing it out.
I have not done this with weight loss, but I HAVE done this with other things in life.
I have a tendency to decide I'm going to do the thing, and do it. This is all well and good but even when it's something I want to continue, once I've 'climbed the mountain' to accomplish that goal, ESPECIALLY a big one, some part of my brain decides I have Achieved The Thing and therefore I Am Done. I experience a "WHOO" did it, followed by feeling let down because now there's No Goal and I just ... wander off and cease being able to REALLY care about it (even if I mentally recognize I SHOULD). Then I have to fight to care again and it's a whole mess. I honestly think I'm happier in pursuit of a goal than the achievement.
Even with DOG SPORTS. I hit a major title, celebrated briefly, got depressed and then kind of... lost interest in the whole thing for way too long because... I'd met my goal what else is there? (No. Didn't work that way but my brain sure took it there for a solid month or two. I was actually DEPRESSED.)
I have had to work very hard not to make weight loss a Hobby, A Goal, An Achievement, or any other really particularly big deal in my life, but rather the reflection of small life changes that Aren't A Big Deal. We'll see if that works for my brain, but it is a strategy that works for me better than "I AM ACHIEVING A THING I AM DOING A THING I AM GONNA DO THE THING THERE IS A GOAL" None of that for my brain. NONE. Just "Yeah I eat a lot of cottage cheese now."14 -
Can't disagree with you. This time around I'm going slower, planning in deficit breaks at regular intervals, eating 20% more calories than I did last time around. I'm also putting LOTS more thought into maintenance, and trying to work out a rough framework maintenance strategy that I think will keep me accountable but at the same time be sustainable and fun.scarlett_k wrote: »To be blunt: are you really successful at losing weight if you're putting it all back on repeatedly? Losing that much that fast is probably where you're going wrong. What's the rush?
My issue was with my total abdication of accountability last time around. I know there were bad habits to unlearn, and physiological, psychological and metabolic adaptations to further complicate matters. But those things don't explain (to my satisfaction) why I abdicated responsibility so spectacularly. My own psyche remains a mystery to me where rapid weight regain is concerned - and I hate being a mystery to myself!
You made some very valid points, but to a large extent they were invalidated by the fact that my diet (even while rapidly regaining) was healthy, nutritious and balanced, with zero fast food and alcohol and very little (under 5%) refined or processed food. I didn't binge, gorge or crave. I just ate too much of some healthy but calorie dense foods (e.g. nut butters, cheese, nuts, olive oil) on a daily basis, and didn't do anywhere near enough exercise/NEAT burn to justify the calorie input. I ate like an athletic, active 6'3" young man, not a sedentary 5'1" middle aged woman.So in summary, I think it is *very* though to lose weight and change a lifestyle - note that nothing of above had to do with willpower or calorie counting. Willpower is a finite resource and I do not think it's the right model for lifestyle change.The food environment is really stacked against us and real food is in my opinion the answer, not calorie counting on processed food.
I definitely think fear of change has self-sabotaged me during the weight-loss phase in the past, but I'm not sure if I can hold that responsible for the self-sabotage during the period when I should've been maintaining. It's definitely something I'll need to ponder on...39flavours wrote: »I think, for me, the psychological reason I allow myself to regain is a fear of failure and a fear of change. When I'm overweight I have an excuse to stay inside my comfort zone, I don't attempt new challenges and don't seek opportunities. I avoid social situations, never dress up or put myself out there. Because i feel like I'm not good enough to try so why bother. When I've lost the weight my main excuse for not trying anything new has gone and it scares the crap out of me. I feel like an imposter and fear that I will find myself out of my depth and humiliated so I run in the other direction.
Your response was all very valid to me. I do definitely think there was an element of 'well that's that done, time to turn my attention to the next challenge'. I've realised that I'm DEFINITELY happier in pursuit of a goal than in its achievment, but I'm planning the opposite remedy to the one you're working on. The exact opposite, in fact. I've decided that one of my maintenance planks will be to CONTINUALLY have goals to strive for, and to make improving my health a broad-ranging hobby. So, in maintenance, I'm planning to set myself nutrition challenges (try a different fruit/vegetable every day this week....); exercise challenges (improve my time cycling up Alpe Du Zwift; get a personal best time on every route on Zwift etc); lifestyle challenges (plan a bikepacking trip that will push you out of your comfort zone; take up yoga...etc.) I figure that if I constantly have goals to aim for, I'll keep engaged and stimulated, and not zone out on myself like I did last time I hit my weight loss goal.wunderkindking wrote: »I have a tendency to decide I'm going to do the thing, and do it. This is all well and good but even when it's something I want to continue, once I've 'climbed the mountain' to accomplish that goal, ESPECIALLY a big one, some part of my brain decides I have Achieved The Thing and therefore I Am Done. I experience a "WHOO" did it, followed by feeling let down because now there's No Goal and I just ... wander off and cease being able to REALLY care about it (even if I mentally recognize I SHOULD). Then I have to fight to care again and it's a whole mess. I honestly think I'm happier in pursuit of a goal than the achievement.
I have had to work very hard not to make weight loss a Hobby, A Goal, An Achievement, or any other really particularly big deal in my life, but rather the reflection of small life changes that Aren't A Big Deal. We'll see if that works for my brain, but it is a strategy that works for me better than "I AM ACHIEVING A THING I AM DOING A THING I AM GONNA DO THE THING THERE IS A GOAL" None of that for my brain. NONE. Just "Yeah I eat a lot of cottage cheese now."5 -
Bella_Figura wrote: »
Can't disagree with you. This time around I'm going slower, planning in deficit breaks at regular intervals, eating 20% more calories than I did last time around. I'm also putting LOTS more thought into maintenance, and trying to work out a rough framework maintenance strategy that I think will keep me accountable but at the same time be sustainable and fun.scarlett_k wrote: »To be blunt: are you really successful at losing weight if you're putting it all back on repeatedly? Losing that much that fast is probably where you're going wrong. What's the rush?
My issue was with my total abdication of accountability last time around. I know there were bad habits to unlearn, and physiological, psychological and metabolic adaptations to further complicate matters. But those things don't explain (to my satisfaction) why I abdicated responsibility so spectacularly. My own psyche remains a mystery to me where rapid weight regain is concerned - and I hate being a mystery to myself!
You made some very valid points, but to a large extent they were invalidated by the fact that my diet (even while rapidly regaining) was healthy, nutritious and balanced, with zero fast food and alcohol and very little (under 5%) refined or processed food. I didn't binge, gorge or crave. I just ate too much of some healthy but calorie dense foods (e.g. nut butters, cheese, nuts, olive oil) on a daily basis, and didn't do anywhere near enough exercise/NEAT burn to justify the calorie input. I ate like an athletic, active 6'3" young man, not a sedentary 5'1" middle aged woman.So in summary, I think it is *very* though to lose weight and change a lifestyle - note that nothing of above had to do with willpower or calorie counting. Willpower is a finite resource and I do not think it's the right model for lifestyle change.The food environment is really stacked against us and real food is in my opinion the answer, not calorie counting on processed food.
I definitely think fear of change has self-sabotaged me during the weight-loss phase in the past, but I'm not sure if I can hold that responsible for the self-sabotage during the period when I should've been maintaining. It's definitely something I'll need to ponder on...39flavours wrote: »I think, for me, the psychological reason I allow myself to regain is a fear of failure and a fear of change. When I'm overweight I have an excuse to stay inside my comfort zone, I don't attempt new challenges and don't seek opportunities. I avoid social situations, never dress up or put myself out there. Because i feel like I'm not good enough to try so why bother. When I've lost the weight my main excuse for not trying anything new has gone and it scares the crap out of me. I feel like an imposter and fear that I will find myself out of my depth and humiliated so I run in the other direction.
Your response was all very valid to me. I do definitely think there was an element of 'well that's that done, time to turn my attention to the next challenge'. I've realised that I'm DEFINITELY happier in pursuit of a goal than in its achievment, but I'm planning the opposite remedy to the one you're working on. The exact opposite, in fact. I've decided that one of my maintenance planks will be to CONTINUALLY have goals to strive for, and to make improving my health a broad-ranging hobby. So, in maintenance, I'm planning to set myself nutrition challenges (try a different fruit/vegetable every day this week....); exercise challenges (improve my time cycling up Alpe Du Zwift; get a personal best time on every route on Zwift etc); lifestyle challenges (plan a bikepacking trip that will push you out of your comfort zone; take up yoga...etc.) I figure that if I constantly have goals to aim for, I'll keep engaged and stimulated, and not zone out on myself like I did last time I hit my weight loss goal.wunderkindking wrote: »I have a tendency to decide I'm going to do the thing, and do it. This is all well and good but even when it's something I want to continue, once I've 'climbed the mountain' to accomplish that goal, ESPECIALLY a big one, some part of my brain decides I have Achieved The Thing and therefore I Am Done. I experience a "WHOO" did it, followed by feeling let down because now there's No Goal and I just ... wander off and cease being able to REALLY care about it (even if I mentally recognize I SHOULD). Then I have to fight to care again and it's a whole mess. I honestly think I'm happier in pursuit of a goal than the achievement.
I have had to work very hard not to make weight loss a Hobby, A Goal, An Achievement, or any other really particularly big deal in my life, but rather the reflection of small life changes that Aren't A Big Deal. We'll see if that works for my brain, but it is a strategy that works for me better than "I AM ACHIEVING A THING I AM DOING A THING I AM GONNA DO THE THING THERE IS A GOAL" None of that for my brain. NONE. Just "Yeah I eat a lot of cottage cheese now."
Just be careful with that opposite thing.
I actually did consider it, but the truth is - I cannot make diet/nutrition/stuff like that the center of my life. I already have an active life style (I do competitive sports, I have five high energy dogs, I have a day job and professionally dog train). I have 2 (adult) kids and elderly family members. I travel a lot. I... need this stuff to fit into my life as it is, because my life does not have room for 40 years of fitness/nutrition as a hobby.
Also, practically speaking and more generally instead of 'why I'm not doing that': How long can continuous challenges really last? Aren't you going to run out at some point? what happens if you're sick or injured? what happens when you hit the top of your performance and have eaten all the new things you can get?
Not saying it's not a good plan - it is if you enjoy stuff. But you might want to have some kind of background plan for those times those thigns are not possible or an exit from nonstop progression, because nonstop progression is NEVER sustainable in ANYTHING.4 -
It sounds to me like a typical Tye A response - Keep Achieving! I agree with wunderkind, that kind of self-pressure wouldn't be helpful to me.
I have to give myself grace. I have to be able to eat the food l love. I do track it, and I do make adjustments to my weight if it goes over or under my five pound maintenance weight range. Other than that, I step on the scale almost daily.
For me logging food and logging my body weight are the two most essential things. When I stop doing either one of those things I get off-course pretty quickly. It's just a life-maintenance thing for me that takes a few minutes a day. You've probably read on this site, "It's like flossing and brushing my teeth." Has to be done, takes just a couple minutes, the payoff is huge.
With that said, the first year post weight-loss for me was hard. I bounced around with my weight. Part of that was because I lost 80ish pounds in a fairly short time frame.That created a rebound hormonal response and that urge physiologically to regain some weight. I tried to do Maintenance intuitively without tracking. I added back in too many treat foods. I slacked off on my exercise. I found that was a problem and so I returned to what I'd been doing.
I suppose s o m e people can do intuitive eating. I would suggest you may not be one of them since you've struggled so much in the past.
Keep logging. Keep stepping on that body weight scale. Life maintenance.
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wunderkindking wrote: »Just be careful with that opposite thing.
I actually did consider it, but the truth is - I cannot make diet/nutrition/stuff like that the center of my life. I already have an active life style (I do competitive sports, I have five high energy dogs, I have a day job and professionally dog train). I have 2 (adult) kids and elderly family members. I travel a lot. I... need this stuff to fit into my life as it is, because my life does not have room for 40 years of fitness/nutrition as a hobby.
Also, practically speaking and more generally instead of 'why I'm not doing that': How long can continuous challenges really last? Aren't you going to run out at some point? what happens if you're sick or injured? what happens when you hit the top of your performance and have eaten all the new things you can get?
Not saying it's not a good plan - it is if you enjoy stuff. But you might want to have some kind of background plan for those times those thigns are not possible or an exit from nonstop progression, because nonstop progression is NEVER sustainable in ANYTHING.
You're right, of course. I can't argue with any point you've made. And I don't intend to make a prison for myself from continually pursuing goals ad infinitum, with ever diminishing returns and ever-greater demands on my mental and physical reserves. Balance is key. I think the first two years of maintenance - while my metabolism, hormones etc will be in upheaval and my body will be continually trying to regain its lost mass - will be the critical period for still having new and interesting challenges to aim for. I'm hoping that having FUN challenges loosely based on health improvement will keep things interesting for me, and stop me putting health on the back burner as a 'done job'.
I think I can come up with enough fun challenges to last me a couple of years, around improving my nutrition (I love to cook, and I've lots of cuisines still to try, and I'm just beginning to explore vegetarianism/veganism), around improving my fitness, strength and flexibility, and around following a healthy active lifestyle that involves the activities I already love, such as cycling, bikepacking, hiking and camping. The challenges should make it fun, and stop it all being about weight. But hopefully weight maintenance will be a by-product.
Incidentally, while I don't want to become obsessive about health, and I recognise there are other things in life, I've just retired so I have some time to devote to myself as a hobby. No kids, one husband, one dog, no job, lots of other hobbies and interests including creative writing, gardening, reading, travelling. Hopefully those other interests will stop too much obsessiveness and prevent me from falling down the rabbit hole of obsessive behaviours.
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Heather covers why maintenance can be such a struggle and what to do about it in depth in the Kristen coaching call part of episode 499 of the Half Size Me podcast:
https://www.halfsizeme.com/hsm499/1 -
Why are you breaking it into “weight loss” and “maintenance”? That’s allowing you to succeed at one and fail at the other. Change your mindset to one of changing your life’s habits. There’s no longer a phase one and phase two. Anything you change to lose the weight will continue lifelong, smoothly and continually into maintenance anyways. You’ve proven you can succeed at that phase.
I second @kshama2001’s recommendation, Heather’s take on this is spot-on for you.4 -
For me, it always comes back to emotional eating and my own guilt/ shame at having a "different" relationship with food than "normal" people.
And that *kitten* goes back to childhood. As I lay out it much more detail in my MFP profile, I associate every feeling—positive or negative—with food. Eating is the celebration of happiness accomplishment; it is the comfort of disappointment, sadness and grief. I can’t THINK of a single FEELING that I have ever FELT that I can’t link directly to the ACT of eating.
That's at the core of lifelong body shaming and psychological shaming, and it's what has been at the center of my self-sabotage on my many many trips up and down the scale between age 8 and 60. That 30 to 50 lbs I keep gaining and losing is the abusive lover that I hate because of how it makes me feel about myself, yet cannot ever truly extricate from my life because of the extraordinary power the emotion/food connection still holds.
As a 10+-year MFP-er, I have gone through cycles of deep resentment and more shame about logging--with the prospect of having to write down ever freaking thing I ate for the rest of my life feeling like being some sort of life sentence in perpetual time-out because I don't "think right" about food. But I've seemed to come to terms with that since lockdown started last year, and now logging feels like self-care rather than self-flagilation . . . and act of ceremony and ritual that brings comfort instead of shame.
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while i gained back some of the weight i had lost when i was in maintenance (about 20 from 150 lost at that point in time). what i learned during that maintenace phase it that I can maintain without tracking/logging food *IF* I workout regularly (3-5 times a week/medium intensity). And eat mindfully, not whatever whenever, right? If I am NOT working out, I absolutely HAVE to log everything. there is not another option. I also HAVE to weigh myself and log it regularly. it doesn't have to be every day, but at least once a week.
While I am in a loss phase now (probably the last one, but I may break it up, I haven't decided yet), I think what I may do is as I approach the 'end' view it more as a 'new beginning' and decide what kind of fitness or health goals I want to target, and begin working on a plan for those. That way my focus and mindset can begin to change and I can let my OCD tendencies (and I hate to say that because it has such negative connotations) but I can let them switch gears into a new direction. I do a lot better mentally, if I can have something to focus on in a constructive manner (if that makes any sense at all). I think between not having that focus, and not working out regularly, and not tracking food - the combination of all of it, was why I had gained back weight. I did a little of it, which is why I didnt gain back any MORE than I did, but not enough, and not consistently, and really, i just got lazy and had no focus on anything.
I dont know if any of that helps or applies to you at all, but I know that is what I have learned about myself and maintenance and what works (for me).2 -
It's so interesting, reading everyone's responses. Clearly I'm far from being the only one struggling with this issue, but we all have different reasons for finding our relationship wth food problematic, and different ways of addressing the situation.
What really intrigues me is what's going on in my brain to make me act the way I do.
The best analogy I can come up with is that it's akin to being awake, with full cognitive function, without being under duress or coercion of any kind, and without any conscious desire to self harm....and then plunging my hand into a fire and watching with detachment as the skin starts to blister and burn. Knowing that I'm hurting myself. Knowing it'll hurt even more later, when I acknowledge the enormity of the damage I've done. But doing it anyway.
What happens to the brain after a long period of self-discipline and weight loss that makes it disengage and allow that awake-sleepwalking self-sabotage to happen?
There must be a reason...I just haven't figured out what it is yet!6 -
The hormonal reaction is not minor. Think back on how you've observed both yourself and others react to hormonal impulses. Emotions. Crying. Anger. Observing and not reacting Trying to manage it ahead of time and minimize is probably a much better idea than trying to over-power or even manage something that operates at such a fundamental level.
Beyond that you're continuing to split into before and after weight loss (as in investing x amount of energy to perform and y amount of energy to maintain). Maybe 5 years in we can talk about loosening up the rains.
My personal observation is that I didn't get to be at my top size without having some "built in" reasons for getting there. Do I like food? Check. Willing to ignore limits? check. Ignore or not realize that I've had enough and continue eating? Check. Emotional eating? Check when agitated, frustrated, or angry. <-- these didn't go away because I lost weight. They are and continue to be managed.
I lost some weight and gained some weight and, on average, went on gaining weight for most of my adult life. Let's exercise more and lose some weight. Oh, let me see about maintaining my loss=regain process.
This time around, after finding MFP, there is no longer weight loss followed by maintenance but ongoing weight management. Sometimes more and sometimes less intense.... but some form of weight management is part of daily life.
Some people may prefer no sweets or no eating after 9pm or... what have you. I prefer the "simplicity" of a fitbit and fairly accurate food logging.
Can people maintain or even lose without these measurements? Quite a few do. The question is: what is more freeing for you? These (arbitrary to me) restrictions or logging?
my best advice to you based both on my initial loss and on losing and then regaining another 4-5lbs a few years later... continue the same regiment as you follow losing the last 5lbs for at least a year... maybe even two. Changing too much immediately... seldom ends well!5 -
Did you attach any kind of expectations to your life after reaching a healthy weight? Even subconsciously?
It could be expectations that you would be happy, feel successful, be treated differently, better romantic/career prospects, or any number of things you expected (even subconsciously) to improve?
It could be expectations you have of yourself-that now you’ve lost the weight and gotten Healthy so you’re going to also get your finances/life/relationships/career/etc in order, or possibly begin pursuing more adventurous things or long wished for travel or …. Anything that you’d set aside (again-possibly subconsciously) until you were “worth” it?
If you had expectations in either or both areas and they didn’t come to fruition, that could be a part of what allowed you to regain. It would be almost a relief (again-subconsciously) to avoid the fact that either (or both) sets of expectations didn’t happen if the simplest fix is to remove yourself from the circumstances where those expectations would be in play.
Discomfort with change is also a real thing. As mentioned above-being in 2 phases, the weight loss “phase” is temporary. Again subconsciously-those are permanent changes. You’re just doing this to lose the weight. Now that it’s lost and you’re confronted with the reality that these changes are permanent, it’s going to be uncomfortable. And the quickest way to ease that discomfort is to remove yourself from the circumstances where those changes are permanent. Gain some weight and now you’re back to just temporary weight loss. Which would be a huge relief (if there was discomfort with the idea of permanent changes).
Just ideas. Not intended as anything beyond that.3 -
Why are you breaking it into “weight loss” and “maintenance”? That’s allowing you to succeed at one and fail at the other. Change your mindset to one of changing your life’s habits. There’s no longer a phase one and phase two. Anything you change to lose the weight will continue lifelong, smoothly and continually into maintenance anyways. You’ve proven you can succeed at that phase.
I second @kshama2001’s recommendation, Heather’s take on this is spot-on for you.
I agree with this. For me, it's been about experimenting, finding (relatively) easy habits that drive toward my goals, practicing those habits, and getting them grooved in as automatic (or as close to that as possible).
Life is inherently challenging, at least in episodes. Getting healthy weight and reasonable activity on a near-automatic basis is pretty magical, IMO. Then, if I want (and have the emotional energy at the time), I can layer new goals or pursuits on that foundation of happy, easy habits. Motivation can be overridden by necessity if there are family health crises, financial troubles, or any one of a number of other things that happen during normal lifetimes . . . let alone just getting bored or burned out by continued striving. There's only just so much emotional energy in my supply bucket.
I didn't do anything to lose weight that I wasn't willing to do long term to stay at a healthy weight, except for the calorie deficit . . . and that shrank, intentionally, as I got closer to goal (off ramp!). I don't think that's necessary for everyone, to take that approach the whole time during loss, but I do think it's a really good idea for most people, h in the last few months if not before.
That makes maintenance just a matter of increasing calories a bit, no other big transition to worry about. In my case, I even chose to add back calories incrementally, a hundred or two at a time. Knowing myself, if I added 500 daily calories all at once, I'd be more likely to allocate that to a daily routine mega-treat. Though that's not necessarily a bad thing for all, it was better (preferable) for me to add 100 or so at a time, and make those mostly pleasant tweaks that also improved nutrition.
I'm in year 5+ of maintenance now, have been at a healthy weight since (though up and down a bit within the healthy range), after about 3 previous decades of overweight/obesity. I'm not saying it's the right approach for everyone, but it's working so far for me.2 -
Another personal experience here which may or may not offer done useful thoughts
After multiple attempts at sustained weight loss/maintenance maintenance, I had done enough deep thinking to realise a few things about myself.
1 - I didn’t believe I could be slim. I felt that I was ‘big boned, heavy etc’ so any weight loss would only result in an unsatisfactory look and weight. I now realise that’s false and feel much more motivated.
2 - I associated socialising, comfort, relaxation etc with food. I genuinely didn’t think I could enjoy a situation without food. I’ve since been out for meals, taken holidays, been to parties etc and had a great time whilst not eating or eating very carefully and it has made no difference to my enjoyment. In fact, not fixating on food has given me the space to focus on people etc.
3 - I thought SMART goals were necessary. Now realise that I should drop the ‘T’ - timeframe. Having a date to have lost x amount meant I didn’t see change as long term, I felt like a failure if I wasn’t on track, I would give up. Now I’m focussed on changed habits and looking for a generally trend of weightloss i daily or weekly goal of logging, weighing and sticking to a calorie goal is very achievable so I’m no longer failing. Abd I know that this is something I will need to do indefinitely but that’s ok.
In summary, I worked out my disordered thoughts, I figured out a way of countering them and I keep reminding myself of them. For example, now if I find myself thinking ‘it’s Friday, I deserve x to relax’ I’ll then think ‘but it won’t help me relax, it never has’.
I hope something in this is useful to you - good luck!11 -
Thanks for the input, folks. Lots of wisdom here.
In terms of making a differentiation between the weight loss phase and the maintenance phase, I know that's not necessarily a helpful way of thinking about it, but it is also a reflection of reality; the healthy, sustainable, undemanding behaviours/habits I'm trying to embed now - combined with a moderate deficit - are currently assisting me to lose excess weight. The deficit will narrow as I approach a healthy weight, and eventually will become so small as to make the transition into maintenance almost seamless, but I'm hoping by that time the behaviours/habits will be second-nature and will be sustainable indefinitely. Like Ann I'm not doing anything now that I don't enjoy; I'm eating food I like (essentially unchanged from how I was eating before March) just in smaller portions; the exercise is moderate and enjoyable (walking and cycling, both of which I find mood-enhancing, meditative and good for both my mental and physical health). So I'm doing all I can to make the changes sustainable so that they take no mental effort to continue once I've reached a healthy weight.
Trouble is, I thought they were embedded last time around, so my complacency is shot....3 -
There is a difference between sustainable and enjoyable and I don't think that gets recognized - not just in weight-loss but in life, to be honest. I've had a hard time with this overall.
I ENJOY a lot of things and find them relatively easy.... but they're not really sustainable for other reasons. I don't think this is inherently your issue because you're doing moderate things that apparently fit into your life, but I think it's worth mentioning all the same, because this is a big topic that applies to lots of people.
I *enjoy* horseback riding, but it's a pretty lousy fit in my life. There are periods where I can make it work on a regular and fairly frequent basis - but it's expensive, the stable isn't all that close to my house and there are several months a year it directly conflicts with other obligations and the time to do it is not there. I always, always, want to think I'm going to do it more/stick with it without break, but it never happens.
Less dramatically, I enjoy the mornings I get up early and do a long, slow walk. It's easy, it's convenient, it is me time. Am I ever going to sustain it? Nope. I will do it for weeks or even months on end but it is inevitably going to conflict with my desire to NOT wake up at the butt crack of dawn and stay in bed. I could pretty easily tell myself I'm just going to do it. I can absolutely 'make myself' do that -- for a while. But I know me (now) and I'm not a 'willpower' person. It's a finite resource, sooner or later I'm going to opt to sleep in, the streak will break and it will be 6 months of me laying in bed staring at the ceiling trying to convince myself to get up and take the walk because I like it and I should do it. So I get neither the extra sleep I actually want at that point NOR the walk.
Ironically I CAN sustain 'go out at 1 p.mish and run four miles'. Because it coincides with the point in the day I have the most energy, allows me a break from my really boring day job and gets me out of the house, happens AFTER I am always awake and dressed and the dog I run with will come yell in my face to motivate me (or irritate me I guess)
Brains are just bizarre and complicated.7 -
@wunderkindking I love how people are so diverse! There's no way in the world that I could sustain a commitment to go out at any time of the day and run four miles. I'd do it twice then never do it again...
Luckily, the things I enjoy doing are also easily sustainable for me - though not necessarily for other people. I'm retired so my time is my own. I live in a tiny English village surrounded by quiet lanes and farmland criss-crossed with bridle/foot paths and public rights-of-way, so I have plenty of places to walk and an energetic dog that would demand to be walked twice daily in all weathers, whether I felt like it or not.
Similarly with the cycling. I have the aforementioned quiet lanes and bridleways to cycle on when the weather is good, and when it's blowing a hooley I can stay indoors and get in a workout on the turbo trainer that's permanently set up in the spare bedroom. All I need to do is switch it on, fire up Zwift and hop on the bike. It means I can get in a quick workout even if I only have a spare twenty minutes. It's not as much fun as being out in the fresh air, but I do enjoy it...
I realised that the only way I was going to continue with an exercise plan was if I didn't see it as exercise. I've been mad about cycling since I was a tiny tot, and I'm never happier than when I'm on a bike. And planning bikepacking trips for the forthcoming year is one of my favourite winter hobbies.
So, yes, I agree that enjoyable doesn't always equate to sustainable, but luckily in my case it does. I realise I'm fortunate - that's why I get so mad at myself for squandering all my good fortune!2 -
In these past weight losses, did you have a group of like-minded people like this forum? It was/has been really helpful for me to stay plugged in here to keep my eye on the end-goal.
Lots of wisdom on these pages and good daily reminders.4 -
cmriverside wrote: »In these past weight losses, did you have a group of like-minded people like this forum? It was/has been really helpful for me to stay plugged in here to keep my eye on the end-goal.
Lots of wisdom on these pages and good daily reminders.
No - and I think that definitely contributed to my rapid reversal. This forum and the wisdom therein have been revelatory and invaluable this time around. Last time around I DID use the MFP tracker and food database, but I didn't participate in the community. This time around I've been much more immersed.5 -
I don’t know the reason for this, but I understand you completely.
I lost 75 pounds over 18 months. I kept logging for 18 months after reaching goal because I wanted to make sure I had a good feel for my maintenance calories. When I quit logging, I actually lost 5 more pounds because the uncertainty of KNOWING whether I had calories to spare or not caused me to undereat. But, I managed to maintain within 5 pounds for two years after that.
Then, injuries and rehab. Not being able to run. Gaining weight. More injuries and rehab. Knowing I needed to start logging again with such a change in my exercise calories. Not wanting to log. Wanting to be able to “just do it” on my own. Trying and failing. Beating myself up for knowing how to lose weight and not doing it. Eating all the stuff. Logging for a week. Stopping. Beating myself up again. Deciding to try to just get more active. Maybe that will work some. It’s a start. Eating all the stuff. Gaining more weight. Talking to my psychologist. Feeling good. Logging for a couple days. “See?, logging is not so bad.” Stop logging. Eat all the stuff. Beat myself up. Gain weight.
Three years of this and I’m not yet back where I started, but I am closer than I would like. I have started a weight lifting and exercise routine again. Routines are my friends. Habits are strong and I have lost all my good ones. It’s depressing how out of shape I am now compared to three years ago. I look at my exercise logs and the weights in them and feel bad while I do my starter exercises again. But, I have to start somewhere. I don’t understand the mental block I have against logging, All my recipes and foods are already in the database. It doesn’t take hardly any time, just a bit of give and take on calories. And, most importantly, it works, I know it works. I logged today and planned my dinner so I’d know what I have left for lunch. It’s something.
I hope you find an answer. I’d like to know it. When I was in the maintenance forum (back when I belonged there), someone said they knew how to lose weight. They just didn’t know how to make themselves care. That’s the key. I didn’t understand it at the time because I had my good habits and routines and everything was working for me. Now, I understand her comment. She’d been through weight loss four or five times. Find your reason for caring. I’m looking for mine.8 -
@HappyCampr1
I really feel for you.
Injuries can be life-altering and nowhere is it more obvious than weight. I too rely on daily exercise. . .not so much for the added calories because they aren't that much but for the effect they have on my mood and how I view myself in the world.
I hope you find a way to keep exercising and keep coming back here for support and to read. It made a difference for me - especially when I was injured and housebound.2 -
I think the only person who can really answer this is you, but you've been given a lot of great possibilities and examples from others.
Why do you think you are self-sabotaging? What else is going on in your life right now? Any other stressors? Of course, going through this pandemic has been stressful on everyone! How do you cope with stress? Are you aware of how you cope with it?
When you lost weight, did you truly accept that this is who you were, that you could maintain the weight loss? Or was there a little voice somewhere telling you that you'd gain it back, that this was only temporary?
One of my bad habits that self-sabotages is overeating snack-type foods at night. I think part of it is I may be tired so am eating to compensate and part of it is it's almost a ritual at this point, but I know part of it is kind of a stress-reliever for me. It's always crunchy, salty foods. I know I can set aside a portion and the put the bag away, but there's a part of me that thinks I "can't" do it. It's a matter of negative self-talk as well as not having a better outlet for stress at night.1 -
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cmriverside wrote: »
@cmriverside Sorry. I changed my name. I had previously had the admins delete my prior posts (hence the low #) and just wanted a new start without losing my database and friends by starting over completely. Didn’t mean to confuse.3
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