Keto
DyanasLBSGoingDown
Posts: 9 Member
Can anyone give me some pointers on what to set my intakes at or pointers for keto. Fat, carbs ect. I'm new. I'm trying to muddle my way through the crazy amount of info. I'd be glad for good advice.
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It is usually somewhere between 50 to 70% fat ...20% Protein and 5% carbs ...You can always change your macros ... Some people get full on fat others its is protein that makes some full1
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Carb Manager is an app that most people on Keto use.1
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There are groups here for low carb or keto with lots of info.2
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We need more data to provide valuable responses. What is your height, weight, age and workout routine? What are your goals, both fitness and weight?1
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Here is some uncomplicated info: calorie deficit.3
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This is a great group for keto advice: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum
(You have to join, I think, but they will let you in.)
The macros are going to vary based on your total calorie need, as what grams of carbs will be sufficient for ketosis depends on how many cals you are burning. Similarly, a good protein goal is usually something like 0.8 g per lb of a healthy goal weight. Fat will account for the rest.2 -
Typical Keto is 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein.. but there have to be adjustments based on your size, because bigger people need more calories.
So 5% carbs may be great if you eat 1800 calories. About 22.5 grams = 90 calories. A bigger person though, might need 2400 calories, and 5% is 120, or 30 grams of carbs.
At that point, it starts getting tricky.. I won't be in KETOsis @ 30 grams a day, and that is basically what the Keto diet is. People will tell you all sorts of numbers, but the goal, and why it is the Keto diet.. is it keeps you in ketosis.. usually this is 20-25 grams max.. it varies per person, but not by much. Someone might say you are following a Keto diet, at 40 grams a day.. now they even have some people saying 10% carbs, because there is no way to stop anyone from saying a diet is Keto.
So first you need to decide if you just want to be able to say you are on a Keto diet.. or actually be in ketosis, and get any benefit. If you aren't sure what ketosis feels like, then you have never been in ketosis, and are just eating less carbs. You will know the second you pop out of ketosis, if you ever get into it.
Keto is supposed to be moderate protein.. around 15-20%.. so you might end up eating on a 2000 calorie diet.. 3% carbs. 15 grams total.. you don't HAVE to eat the max, because it makes it more likely you pop out of ketosis, which should be your goal.. if you eat 15-20% protein.. that is 75-100 grams of protein. That leaves 77-82% left over, and that is how you determine fat %. Now, you can eat more protein, and cut down fat, but the higher the fat, the more you will lose, because fat reduces appetite. So you eat less overall. Excess protein is useless. You simply pass it in your urine.
Our bodies either use glycogen or break down fat, into ketones, which happens when you are in ketosis... basically, by lowering carbs, you burn off any glycogen.. the less carbs you eat, the faster you start breaking down fat.. and if you eat higher fat, the body gets used to burning ketones, as fat is broken down.. remove the glycogen, and any dietary alcohol, and the body has to basically burn fat. Eventually, you burn off the dietary fat, and at that point, you body starts looking for more fat. That is when it starts burning off BODY fat. Body fat, is meant to be used in times of famine, but we never experience that, so we just keep up the storage, and add over the years.
So the goal here is to eat low enough carbs to stay in ketosis.. anything over 20 grams, and you may not be in ketosis.. then add enough protein for body function.. 15-20% or 1.6 grams per kg of muscle mass.. for most of us, this isn't that high.. 75-100 grams is plenty for most people, and the rest is fat.
If you find yourself losing too quickly, and want to slow down.. try adding some protein, and cutting the fat, and you use the results to tell you how much fat and protein you need.. vary the ratio based on the speed of weight loss. I didn't say calories, because if you are in ketosis, you will probably eat a lot less calories than you planned.
Low carb can be keto, but not necessarily, and I you CAN lose weight eating more carbs, and NOT being in ketosis.. it'll simply be slower, and you might get cravings.
The #1 benefit of Keto, is being in ketosis, because if you are in ketosis, you won't ever get cravings.. you struggle to eat what you are supposed to, and have very little appetite. You eat when meals are scheduled. You shouldn't be thinking of lunch an hour before.
If you eat more carbs, say 40 grams, you can still lose weight, but it's harder if you have cravings, and you probably won't eat a lot less, and that means no really big drops in weight. Keto is simply manipulating your body function through manipulating macros.
What you really should be asking.. is how LOW should my carb level be, and how much protein do I need.. answer those 2 questions, and then fat takes care of itself.. your concern shouldn't be about a number, but the effect it has on your body. If someone is eating 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein, that should be because it delivers the results desired, NOT simply met some numbers someone suggested. The macro ratio has a purpose.. not only to lose weight, but to be able to slow weight loss if needed, manage cravings, and control how many calories you consume.
For you that might be a different macro ratio than it is for me, or anyone else. Do it in steps.. a carb percentage which keeps you in ketosis.. figure that out, then determine muscle mass, and calculate how much protein percentage you need.. then make a menu that fits all 3 percentages.. and watch results.. then adjust as needed.
Lastly, pay attention to foods on the plan, and stick to what is allowed. Follow the intent of the diet, not what you can fit into your macro allowances. I wouldn't recommend a ton of bacon, for example. Ask yourself at the end of a day.. could I eat this for the rest of my life? If not, alter what you are eating so you can eat properly, and keep at it.
Hope it works well for you, however you decide to do it.
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russellholtslander1 wrote: »Typical Keto is 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein.. but there have to be adjustments based on your size, because bigger people need more calories.
So 5% carbs may be great if you eat 1800 calories. About 22.5 grams = 90 calories. A bigger person though, might need 2400 calories, and 5% is 120, or 30 grams of carbs.
At that point, it starts getting tricky.. I won't be in KETOsis @ 30 grams a day, and that is basically what the Keto diet is. People will tell you all sorts of numbers, but the goal, and why it is the Keto diet.. is it keeps you in ketosis.. usually this is 20-25 grams max.. it varies per person, but not by much. Someone might say you are following a Keto diet, at 40 grams a day.. now they even have some people saying 10% carbs, because there is no way to stop anyone from saying a diet is Keto.
So first you need to decide if you just want to be able to say you are on a Keto diet.. or actually be in ketosis, and get any benefit. If you aren't sure what ketosis feels like, then you have never been in ketosis, and are just eating less carbs. You will know the second you pop out of ketosis, if you ever get into it.
Keto is supposed to be moderate protein.. around 15-20%.. so you might end up eating on a 2000 calorie diet.. 3% carbs. 15 grams total.. you don't HAVE to eat the max, because it makes it more likely you pop out of ketosis, which should be your goal.. if you eat 15-20% protein.. that is 75-100 grams of protein. That leaves 77-82% left over, and that is how you determine fat %. Now, you can eat more protein, and cut down fat, but the higher the fat, the more you will lose, because fat reduces appetite. So you eat less overall. Excess protein is useless. You simply pass it in your urine.
Our bodies either use glycogen or break down fat, into ketones, which happens when you are in ketosis... basically, by lowering carbs, you burn off any glycogen.. the less carbs you eat, the faster you start breaking down fat.. and if you eat higher fat, the body gets used to burning ketones, as fat is broken down.. remove the glycogen, and any dietary alcohol, and the body has to basically burn fat. Eventually, you burn off the dietary fat, and at that point, you body starts looking for more fat. That is when it starts burning off BODY fat. Body fat, is meant to be used in times of famine, but we never experience that, so we just keep up the storage, and add over the years.
So the goal here is to eat low enough carbs to stay in ketosis.. anything over 20 grams, and you may not be in ketosis.. then add enough protein for body function.. 15-20% or 1.6 grams per kg of muscle mass.. for most of us, this isn't that high.. 75-100 grams is plenty for most people, and the rest is fat.
If you find yourself losing too quickly, and want to slow down.. try adding some protein, and cutting the fat, and you use the results to tell you how much fat and protein you need.. vary the ratio based on the speed of weight loss. I didn't say calories, because if you are in ketosis, you will probably eat a lot less calories than you planned.
Low carb can be keto, but not necessarily, and I you CAN lose weight eating more carbs, and NOT being in ketosis.. it'll simply be slower, and you might get cravings.
The #1 benefit of Keto, is being in ketosis, because if you are in ketosis, you won't ever get cravings.. you struggle to eat what you are supposed to, and have very little appetite. You eat when meals are scheduled. You shouldn't be thinking of lunch an hour before.
If you eat more carbs, say 40 grams, you can still lose weight, but it's harder if you have cravings, and you probably won't eat a lot less, and that means no really big drops in weight. Keto is simply manipulating your body function through manipulating macros.
What you really should be asking.. is how LOW should my carb level be, and how much protein do I need.. answer those 2 questions, and then fat takes care of itself.. your concern shouldn't be about a number, but the effect it has on your body. If someone is eating 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein, that should be because it delivers the results desired, NOT simply met some numbers someone suggested. The macro ratio has a purpose.. not only to lose weight, but to be able to slow weight loss if needed, manage cravings, and control how many calories you consume.
For you that might be a different macro ratio than it is for me, or anyone else. Do it in steps.. a carb percentage which keeps you in ketosis.. figure that out, then determine muscle mass, and calculate how much protein percentage you need.. then make a menu that fits all 3 percentages.. and watch results.. then adjust as needed.
Lastly, pay attention to foods on the plan, and stick to what is allowed. Follow the intent of the diet, not what you can fit into your macro allowances. I wouldn't recommend a ton of bacon, for example. Ask yourself at the end of a day.. could I eat this for the rest of my life? If not, alter what you are eating so you can eat properly, and keep at it.
Hope it works well for you, however you decide to do it.
Those protein levels are pretty low, unless you are morbidly obese, even while on a ketogenic diet. In general, 1.6-2.2g/kg of lbm. During weight loss and then leaner you are, the higher in the spectrum.
As it relates to protein and ketosis, at worst, it will slightly inhibit ketone production. But so does eating. Overall, you are just looking for an overall feeling of fullness.
Also, you are over generalizing hunger. While my hunger us blunted with Keto, i can still eat a huge volume of food. I actually have to be careful about falling for keto traps of adding copious amounts of fats for no reason. It's very easy to add a ton of calories without reducing hunger7 -
russellholtslander1 wrote: »Typical Keto is 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein.. but there have to be adjustments based on your size, because bigger people need more calories.
So 5% carbs may be great if you eat 1800 calories. About 22.5 grams = 90 calories. A bigger person though, might need 2400 calories, and 5% is 120, or 30 grams of carbs.
At that point, it starts getting tricky.. I won't be in KETOsis @ 30 grams a day, and that is basically what the Keto diet is. People will tell you all sorts of numbers, but the goal, and why it is the Keto diet.. is it keeps you in ketosis.. usually this is 20-25 grams max.. it varies per person, but not by much. Someone might say you are following a Keto diet, at 40 grams a day.. now they even have some people saying 10% carbs, because there is no way to stop anyone from saying a diet is Keto.
So first you need to decide if you just want to be able to say you are on a Keto diet.. or actually be in ketosis, and get any benefit. If you aren't sure what ketosis feels like, then you have never been in ketosis, and are just eating less carbs. You will know the second you pop out of ketosis, if you ever get into it.
Keto is supposed to be moderate protein.. around 15-20%.. so you might end up eating on a 2000 calorie diet.. 3% carbs. 15 grams total.. you don't HAVE to eat the max, because it makes it more likely you pop out of ketosis, which should be your goal.. if you eat 15-20% protein.. that is 75-100 grams of protein. That leaves 77-82% left over, and that is how you determine fat %. Now, you can eat more protein, and cut down fat, but the higher the fat, the more you will lose, because fat reduces appetite. So you eat less overall. Excess protein is useless. You simply pass it in your urine.
Our bodies either use glycogen or break down fat, into ketones, which happens when you are in ketosis... basically, by lowering carbs, you burn off any glycogen.. the less carbs you eat, the faster you start breaking down fat.. and if you eat higher fat, the body gets used to burning ketones, as fat is broken down.. remove the glycogen, and any dietary alcohol, and the body has to basically burn fat. Eventually, you burn off the dietary fat, and at that point, you body starts looking for more fat. That is when it starts burning off BODY fat. Body fat, is meant to be used in times of famine, but we never experience that, so we just keep up the storage, and add over the years.
So the goal here is to eat low enough carbs to stay in ketosis.. anything over 20 grams, and you may not be in ketosis.. then add enough protein for body function.. 15-20% or 1.6 grams per kg of muscle mass.. for most of us, this isn't that high.. 75-100 grams is plenty for most people, and the rest is fat.
If you find yourself losing too quickly, and want to slow down.. try adding some protein, and cutting the fat, and you use the results to tell you how much fat and protein you need.. vary the ratio based on the speed of weight loss. I didn't say calories, because if you are in ketosis, you will probably eat a lot less calories than you planned.
Low carb can be keto, but not necessarily, and I you CAN lose weight eating more carbs, and NOT being in ketosis.. it'll simply be slower, and you might get cravings.
The #1 benefit of Keto, is being in ketosis, because if you are in ketosis, you won't ever get cravings.. you struggle to eat what you are supposed to, and have very little appetite. You eat when meals are scheduled. You shouldn't be thinking of lunch an hour before.
If you eat more carbs, say 40 grams, you can still lose weight, but it's harder if you have cravings, and you probably won't eat a lot less, and that means no really big drops in weight. Keto is simply manipulating your body function through manipulating macros.
What you really should be asking.. is how LOW should my carb level be, and how much protein do I need.. answer those 2 questions, and then fat takes care of itself.. your concern shouldn't be about a number, but the effect it has on your body. If someone is eating 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein, that should be because it delivers the results desired, NOT simply met some numbers someone suggested. The macro ratio has a purpose.. not only to lose weight, but to be able to slow weight loss if needed, manage cravings, and control how many calories you consume.
For you that might be a different macro ratio than it is for me, or anyone else. Do it in steps.. a carb percentage which keeps you in ketosis.. figure that out, then determine muscle mass, and calculate how much protein percentage you need.. then make a menu that fits all 3 percentages.. and watch results.. then adjust as needed.
Lastly, pay attention to foods on the plan, and stick to what is allowed. Follow the intent of the diet, not what you can fit into your macro allowances. I wouldn't recommend a ton of bacon, for example. Ask yourself at the end of a day.. could I eat this for the rest of my life? If not, alter what you are eating so you can eat properly, and keep at it.
Hope it works well for you, however you decide to do it.
@lemurcat2: not sure if it is you I am thinking of - when you did keto, how high in carbs could you go and stay in ketosis?0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »russellholtslander1 wrote: »Typical Keto is 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein.. but there have to be adjustments based on your size, because bigger people need more calories.
So 5% carbs may be great if you eat 1800 calories. About 22.5 grams = 90 calories. A bigger person though, might need 2400 calories, and 5% is 120, or 30 grams of carbs.
At that point, it starts getting tricky.. I won't be in KETOsis @ 30 grams a day, and that is basically what the Keto diet is. People will tell you all sorts of numbers, but the goal, and why it is the Keto diet.. is it keeps you in ketosis.. usually this is 20-25 grams max.. it varies per person, but not by much. Someone might say you are following a Keto diet, at 40 grams a day.. now they even have some people saying 10% carbs, because there is no way to stop anyone from saying a diet is Keto.
So first you need to decide if you just want to be able to say you are on a Keto diet.. or actually be in ketosis, and get any benefit. If you aren't sure what ketosis feels like, then you have never been in ketosis, and are just eating less carbs. You will know the second you pop out of ketosis, if you ever get into it.
Keto is supposed to be moderate protein.. around 15-20%.. so you might end up eating on a 2000 calorie diet.. 3% carbs. 15 grams total.. you don't HAVE to eat the max, because it makes it more likely you pop out of ketosis, which should be your goal.. if you eat 15-20% protein.. that is 75-100 grams of protein. That leaves 77-82% left over, and that is how you determine fat %. Now, you can eat more protein, and cut down fat, but the higher the fat, the more you will lose, because fat reduces appetite. So you eat less overall. Excess protein is useless. You simply pass it in your urine.
Our bodies either use glycogen or break down fat, into ketones, which happens when you are in ketosis... basically, by lowering carbs, you burn off any glycogen.. the less carbs you eat, the faster you start breaking down fat.. and if you eat higher fat, the body gets used to burning ketones, as fat is broken down.. remove the glycogen, and any dietary alcohol, and the body has to basically burn fat. Eventually, you burn off the dietary fat, and at that point, you body starts looking for more fat. That is when it starts burning off BODY fat. Body fat, is meant to be used in times of famine, but we never experience that, so we just keep up the storage, and add over the years.
So the goal here is to eat low enough carbs to stay in ketosis.. anything over 20 grams, and you may not be in ketosis.. then add enough protein for body function.. 15-20% or 1.6 grams per kg of muscle mass.. for most of us, this isn't that high.. 75-100 grams is plenty for most people, and the rest is fat.
If you find yourself losing too quickly, and want to slow down.. try adding some protein, and cutting the fat, and you use the results to tell you how much fat and protein you need.. vary the ratio based on the speed of weight loss. I didn't say calories, because if you are in ketosis, you will probably eat a lot less calories than you planned.
Low carb can be keto, but not necessarily, and I you CAN lose weight eating more carbs, and NOT being in ketosis.. it'll simply be slower, and you might get cravings.
The #1 benefit of Keto, is being in ketosis, because if you are in ketosis, you won't ever get cravings.. you struggle to eat what you are supposed to, and have very little appetite. You eat when meals are scheduled. You shouldn't be thinking of lunch an hour before.
If you eat more carbs, say 40 grams, you can still lose weight, but it's harder if you have cravings, and you probably won't eat a lot less, and that means no really big drops in weight. Keto is simply manipulating your body function through manipulating macros.
What you really should be asking.. is how LOW should my carb level be, and how much protein do I need.. answer those 2 questions, and then fat takes care of itself.. your concern shouldn't be about a number, but the effect it has on your body. If someone is eating 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein, that should be because it delivers the results desired, NOT simply met some numbers someone suggested. The macro ratio has a purpose.. not only to lose weight, but to be able to slow weight loss if needed, manage cravings, and control how many calories you consume.
For you that might be a different macro ratio than it is for me, or anyone else. Do it in steps.. a carb percentage which keeps you in ketosis.. figure that out, then determine muscle mass, and calculate how much protein percentage you need.. then make a menu that fits all 3 percentages.. and watch results.. then adjust as needed.
Lastly, pay attention to foods on the plan, and stick to what is allowed. Follow the intent of the diet, not what you can fit into your macro allowances. I wouldn't recommend a ton of bacon, for example. Ask yourself at the end of a day.. could I eat this for the rest of my life? If not, alter what you are eating so you can eat properly, and keep at it.
Hope it works well for you, however you decide to do it.
@lemurcat2: not sure if it is you I am thinking of - when you did keto, how high in carbs could you go and stay in ketosis?
Mine are higher. I generally net 30g. Often at 50-60g total. But i am a fit guy who pushes hard during workouts.1 -
Just want to clarify that 20 grams is NET carbs, since fiber just passes through.. so 30 grams might work for most people.. not me, but I was simply pointing out that the number of carbs is based on being in ketosis.. and that varies.
The goal isn't to eat as many carbs as possible.. it is to be in ketosis, and if you need it, to lose weight. Knowing your upper limit is good.. knowing it helps.. but you shouldn't be straddling that line, because if you go over it, you pop out of ketosis, and then have to get back into it, which doesn't happen immediately. Which is why 30 is the max for most suggestions.. but not what you should eat on a daily basis.. it means that at 35 grams, you are likely to not be in ketosis.
The OP is likely between someone like me, who needs to stay below 20 grams a day total, and someone who might be able to handle 30 grams.. 10 from fiber or something similar.
You say you are in ketosis at 50-60 grams a day, because you're workouts burn off the extra carbs psuLemon, but does the average person work out as hard as you? Should we suggest 50-60 might work for most people?
I also would like to note that you say you have hunger issues. Ketosis has degrees. In deep ketosis, you would not be overeating, adding lots of fat.. fat satiates, and you have no appetite. I had set mealtimes, where I ate, even if I wasn't hungry.. to get enough calories. If anything, I under-ate, which is why people doing the diet right, lose so much weight. It was hard to eat, unless I overate carbs, and then I would have cravings. If I ate very high fat, I would struggle to eat all my calories.. maybe 50-60 grams is more than you can actually handle, even with your workouts. A major benefit to me, is never craving foods, or feeling hungry.. you seem to not have as much protection from those issues.. maybe you are barely in ketosis.. maybe you aren't in it at all when you have 60 grams a day. You seem to be OK, and it works for you.. since you are a " fit guy ", so it's not a problem for you.. BUT, once again.. MOST people aren't like you.. most people do light workouts, and have a semi-sedentary job, and their upper limit is probably 30 NET, or 20 total to be absolutely sure they are in deep ketosis.
I would suggest that a person START at 20-30, get into ketosis, and slowly up carbs after the first month.. net or total.. whatever they count.. and pay attention to how they feel, and whether they have ANY cravings/hunger.. and while keto sticks might say you are in ketosis, use the results of how they feel, because the goal isn't to make a stick turn a certain color.. it should be to not feel hunger/cravings, and be able to easily stick to the plan, not worry about adding fat, or extra calories because you are hungry. Which is exactly why you do Keto. so you DON'T have that. It sounds to me like you are saying you are in keto, but not experiencing the hunger-cancelling benefit. IF anything, I under-stated how much it cancels hunger. It's great that it worked for you, but most people eat off plan when they have cravings. So it doesn't work for THEM.. the question to people is do they want to do keto, while still cravings foods not allowed, or do they wish to do so, without cravings, once you are in deep ketosis?
Also want to note that I did use 1.6g/kg of muscle mass. So a 5'10 inch person, weighs 160 lbs. total, and that is a 23 BMI.. I know this varies some, but I used the CDC BMI calculator.. lets say this person is 10% body fat, for ease in calculations.. at 174, they are overweight ( average person ).. so they are still pretty lean, but you subtract 16 lbs. of fat, and you have 144 lbs. of lbm. or about 65.5 kg of lbm X 1.6 equals 104. Average height for an American man is 5'10. There are a lot of people under 5'10", like me, so I suggested 75 as the bottom.. many men, but most women are under 5'10".. so they would eat less.. 110 lbs. of lbm ends up being 80 g.. so 75 would not be that low. The 2.2g/kg is for people looking to add serious muscle, and exercise extremely hard to do so.
I think we can see that I am talking about an average person, while you are talking about someone like you, and I don't think most people who straddle the max, do keto well, so I recommend backing off from the max, while you use the max as a guide for every day. I don't disagree with most of what you said, except the 50-60g and staying in ketosis.. I simply think you are talking upper limits, extremely fit people, who are above average height, and muscle mass, due to harder workouts, and while your info may be correct for them.. I think most people would fail on your advice. I admit, my advice is a bit low in some regards, and that some people might be fine on a bit ore carbs, or protein, and less fat.. but nowhere near where what worked for you.. what matters is what works for the OP.. and if they start with my info, they can get into ketosis, and move UP, as needed or desired, as long as it gets them the proper results... but if they start at the max, following your numbers, many will never get into ketosis, will have cravings, quit and say Keto doesn't work.
I should have been more emphatic about why I spoke of the info I gave, and explained it better, but so should you.. and let readers know that you are talking about max numbers, and that you might not have had a great need for Keto in the first place, since you hit your goals, despite still having cravings, and eating extra calories. Maybe say that the goal isn't to eat the max amount of carbs which allows you to stay in ketosis, and worry that you ate a couple more carbs than you thought, and are not actually IN ketosis.
In other words, people will be fine at 20 g of carbs.. maybe they can have 30g some days, and stay in ketosis, but that shouldn't be their goal.. find the max, but you can eat 2/3rds of what is the max, and not have to worry about cravings popping up, or being out of ketosis. My car can do 110 m.p.h., but I don't drive at the max. The same is true here.. telling others what the max might be, for reference, is fine, but don't suggest that is what anyone should eat every day.
People need to know why they want a certain amount of each macro, and that varies per individual. Hopefully, they figure out what will work for them. I think every cause that might change their macro ratios, has been covered.. high and low.
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30g of (actual) carbs/day works for me.0
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I have noticed that you like to speak in absolutes and as if your experience of keto is a universal truth. This paragraph especially illustrates my point:russellholtslander1 wrote: »I also would like to note that you say you have hunger issues. Ketosis has degrees. In deep ketosis, you would not be overeating, adding lots of fat.. fat satiates, and you have no appetite. I had set mealtimes, where I ate, even if I wasn't hungry.. to get enough calories. If anything, I under-ate, which is why people doing the diet right, lose so much weight. It was hard to eat, unless I overate carbs, and then I would have cravings. If I ate very high fat, I would struggle to eat all my calories.. maybe 50-60 grams is more than you can actually handle, even with your workouts. A major benefit to me, is never craving foods, or feeling hungry.. you seem to not have as much protection from those issues.. maybe you are barely in ketosis.. maybe you aren't in it at all when you have 60 grams a day. You seem to be OK, and it works for you.. since you are a " fit guy ", so it's not a problem for you.. BUT, once again.. MOST people aren't like you.. most people do light workouts, and have a semi-sedentary job, and their upper limit is probably 30 NET, or 20 total to be absolutely sure they are in deep ketosis.
I have eaten keto, and usually do it during the winter months when I can't get out on the bike (and burn off all those 'nasty' carbs) and I'm relegated to using the gym for weights. I can tell you most emphatically that 'fat satiates' is NOT a universal truth. Fat does almost nothing for me in terms of satiation. Protein satiates me. I have tried levels of fat as high as 80% of my diet and it does not work for me... what works for me is much higher protein, moderate fat and super low carbs. I can easily maintain ketosis this way and not have cravings/hunger/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it.
I would also like to point out that people do not overeat simply because they are hungry all of the time. I would wager a goodly sum that a lot of the over-eating that takes place in today's society is simply 'convenience' eating - mindlessly stuffing food into our mouths because the food is available (like that bag of chips and salsa consumed while watching TV).5 -
I have noticed that you like to speak in absolutes and as if your experience of keto is a universal truth. This paragraph especially illustrates my point:russellholtslander1 wrote: »I also would like to note that you say you have hunger issues. Ketosis has degrees. In deep ketosis, you would not be overeating, adding lots of fat.. fat satiates, and you have no appetite. I had set mealtimes, where I ate, even if I wasn't hungry.. to get enough calories. If anything, I under-ate, which is why people doing the diet right, lose so much weight. It was hard to eat, unless I overate carbs, and then I would have cravings. If I ate very high fat, I would struggle to eat all my calories.. maybe 50-60 grams is more than you can actually handle, even with your workouts. A major benefit to me, is never craving foods, or feeling hungry.. you seem to not have as much protection from those issues.. maybe you are barely in ketosis.. maybe you aren't in it at all when you have 60 grams a day. You seem to be OK, and it works for you.. since you are a " fit guy ", so it's not a problem for you.. BUT, once again.. MOST people aren't like you.. most people do light workouts, and have a semi-sedentary job, and their upper limit is probably 30 NET, or 20 total to be absolutely sure they are in deep ketosis.
I have eaten keto, and usually do it during the winter months when I can't get out on the bike (and burn off all those 'nasty' carbs) and I'm relegated to using the gym for weights. I can tell you most emphatically that 'fat satiates' is NOT a universal truth. Fat does almost nothing for me in terms of satiation. Protein satiates me. I have tried levels of fat as high as 80% of my diet and it does not work for me... what works for me is much higher protein, moderate fat and super low carbs. I can easily maintain ketosis this way and not have cravings/hunger/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it.
I would also like to point out that people do not overeat simply because they are hungry all of the time. I would wager a goodly sum that a lot of the over-eating that takes place in today's society is simply 'convenience' eating - mindlessly stuffing food into our mouths because the food is available (like that bag of chips and salsa consumed while watching TV).
And let's not forget emotional eating! I had this pretty much under control until March 2020, when I started worrying about getting the coronavirus and unknowingly passing it along to my mother and killing her. And then in June I lost my job.
10 -
I have noticed that you like to speak in absolutes and as if your experience of keto is a universal truth. This paragraph especially illustrates my point:russellholtslander1 wrote: »I also would like to note that you say you have hunger issues. Ketosis has degrees. In deep ketosis, you would not be overeating, adding lots of fat.. fat satiates, and you have no appetite. I had set mealtimes, where I ate, even if I wasn't hungry.. to get enough calories. If anything, I under-ate, which is why people doing the diet right, lose so much weight. It was hard to eat, unless I overate carbs, and then I would have cravings. If I ate very high fat, I would struggle to eat all my calories.. maybe 50-60 grams is more than you can actually handle, even with your workouts. A major benefit to me, is never craving foods, or feeling hungry.. you seem to not have as much protection from those issues.. maybe you are barely in ketosis.. maybe you aren't in it at all when you have 60 grams a day. You seem to be OK, and it works for you.. since you are a " fit guy ", so it's not a problem for you.. BUT, once again.. MOST people aren't like you.. most people do light workouts, and have a semi-sedentary job, and their upper limit is probably 30 NET, or 20 total to be absolutely sure they are in deep ketosis.I have eaten keto, and usually do it during the winter months when I can't get out on the bike (and burn off all those 'nasty' carbs) and I'm relegated to using the gym for weights. I can tell you most emphatically that 'fat satiates' is NOT a universal truth. Fat does almost nothing for me in terms of satiation. Protein satiates me. I have tried levels of fat as high as 80% of my diet and it does not work for me... what works for me is much higher protein, moderate fat and super low carbs. I can easily maintain ketosis this way and not have cravings/hunger/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it.
I would also like to point out that people do not overeat simply because they are hungry all of the time. I would wager a goodly sum that a lot of the over-eating that takes place in today's society is simply 'convenience' eating - mindlessly stuffing food into our mouths because the food is available (like that bag of chips and salsa consumed while watching TV).
I love fat, but don't find it satiating at all. I feel nauseous if I get over a certain amount of fat. But I recognized that my way is one way, and not the One True Way.3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »russellholtslander1 wrote: »Typical Keto is 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein.. but there have to be adjustments based on your size, because bigger people need more calories.
So 5% carbs may be great if you eat 1800 calories. About 22.5 grams = 90 calories. A bigger person though, might need 2400 calories, and 5% is 120, or 30 grams of carbs.
At that point, it starts getting tricky.. I won't be in KETOsis @ 30 grams a day, and that is basically what the Keto diet is. People will tell you all sorts of numbers, but the goal, and why it is the Keto diet.. is it keeps you in ketosis.. usually this is 20-25 grams max.. it varies per person, but not by much. Someone might say you are following a Keto diet, at 40 grams a day.. now they even have some people saying 10% carbs, because there is no way to stop anyone from saying a diet is Keto.
So first you need to decide if you just want to be able to say you are on a Keto diet.. or actually be in ketosis, and get any benefit. If you aren't sure what ketosis feels like, then you have never been in ketosis, and are just eating less carbs. You will know the second you pop out of ketosis, if you ever get into it.
Keto is supposed to be moderate protein.. around 15-20%.. so you might end up eating on a 2000 calorie diet.. 3% carbs. 15 grams total.. you don't HAVE to eat the max, because it makes it more likely you pop out of ketosis, which should be your goal.. if you eat 15-20% protein.. that is 75-100 grams of protein. That leaves 77-82% left over, and that is how you determine fat %. Now, you can eat more protein, and cut down fat, but the higher the fat, the more you will lose, because fat reduces appetite. So you eat less overall. Excess protein is useless. You simply pass it in your urine.
Our bodies either use glycogen or break down fat, into ketones, which happens when you are in ketosis... basically, by lowering carbs, you burn off any glycogen.. the less carbs you eat, the faster you start breaking down fat.. and if you eat higher fat, the body gets used to burning ketones, as fat is broken down.. remove the glycogen, and any dietary alcohol, and the body has to basically burn fat. Eventually, you burn off the dietary fat, and at that point, you body starts looking for more fat. That is when it starts burning off BODY fat. Body fat, is meant to be used in times of famine, but we never experience that, so we just keep up the storage, and add over the years.
So the goal here is to eat low enough carbs to stay in ketosis.. anything over 20 grams, and you may not be in ketosis.. then add enough protein for body function.. 15-20% or 1.6 grams per kg of muscle mass.. for most of us, this isn't that high.. 75-100 grams is plenty for most people, and the rest is fat.
If you find yourself losing too quickly, and want to slow down.. try adding some protein, and cutting the fat, and you use the results to tell you how much fat and protein you need.. vary the ratio based on the speed of weight loss. I didn't say calories, because if you are in ketosis, you will probably eat a lot less calories than you planned.
Low carb can be keto, but not necessarily, and I you CAN lose weight eating more carbs, and NOT being in ketosis.. it'll simply be slower, and you might get cravings.
The #1 benefit of Keto, is being in ketosis, because if you are in ketosis, you won't ever get cravings.. you struggle to eat what you are supposed to, and have very little appetite. You eat when meals are scheduled. You shouldn't be thinking of lunch an hour before.
If you eat more carbs, say 40 grams, you can still lose weight, but it's harder if you have cravings, and you probably won't eat a lot less, and that means no really big drops in weight. Keto is simply manipulating your body function through manipulating macros.
What you really should be asking.. is how LOW should my carb level be, and how much protein do I need.. answer those 2 questions, and then fat takes care of itself.. your concern shouldn't be about a number, but the effect it has on your body. If someone is eating 75% fat, 5% carbs, and 20% protein, that should be because it delivers the results desired, NOT simply met some numbers someone suggested. The macro ratio has a purpose.. not only to lose weight, but to be able to slow weight loss if needed, manage cravings, and control how many calories you consume.
For you that might be a different macro ratio than it is for me, or anyone else. Do it in steps.. a carb percentage which keeps you in ketosis.. figure that out, then determine muscle mass, and calculate how much protein percentage you need.. then make a menu that fits all 3 percentages.. and watch results.. then adjust as needed.
Lastly, pay attention to foods on the plan, and stick to what is allowed. Follow the intent of the diet, not what you can fit into your macro allowances. I wouldn't recommend a ton of bacon, for example. Ask yourself at the end of a day.. could I eat this for the rest of my life? If not, alter what you are eating so you can eat properly, and keep at it.
Hope it works well for you, however you decide to do it.
@lemurcat2: not sure if it is you I am thinking of - when you did keto, how high in carbs could you go and stay in ketosis?
Around 30 net, 50-55 g total, seemed to work, but I was pretty active. I've heard of bigger guys who are active with higher totals.2 -
I also see 0 reason for anyone to start as low as possible. Even at 30 g net I was having to cut back on my non starchy veg consumption and I had completely cut out fruit other than avocado. My only other carbs of note were from nuts and seeds (I make sure to have at least a serving per day) and occasional cottage cheese/plain greek yogurt.
I think the only reason for most to do keto is appetite control, and for me that kicks in at a higher carb level anyway -- more like 120 g total even at a pretty stiff deficit. When I tried keto I had been happily eating around 100-120 g of carbs per day and just decided to lower it to keto levels as an experiment. I would recommend that people try low carb first and then keep lowering to see if that's useful for them. I also think the crazy low levels that sometimes get recommended as a starting place effectively result in people thinking the lower the better and eating far too few vegetables because they think any carbs are bad or at least that it's unimportant so long as carbs are crazy low. I briefly participated in a challenge to eat less than 20 g total and asked how that was possible and got told to cut down on non starchy veg and that it was easy -- I decided we clearly did not have a meeting of minds on the importance of veg and so quit the challenge.3 -
I have Set macros to 75% fat 20%protein 5% carbs as recommended by dietdoctor.com. They spell it out really simply how and why keto eorks and how to do it.
Lots of free shopping lists, recipes and meal plans available on there too0 -
russellholtslander1 wrote: »Just want to clarify that 20 grams is NET carbs, since fiber just passes through.. so 30 grams might work for most people.. not me, but I was simply pointing out that the number of carbs is based on being in ketosis.. and that varies.
The goal isn't to eat as many carbs as possible.. it is to be in ketosis, and if you need it, to lose weight. Knowing your upper limit is good.. knowing it helps.. but you shouldn't be straddling that line, because if you go over it, you pop out of ketosis, and then have to get back into it, which doesn't happen immediately. Which is why 30 is the max for most suggestions.. but not what you should eat on a daily basis.. it means that at 35 grams, you are likely to not be in ketosis.
The OP is likely between someone like me, who needs to stay below 20 grams a day total, and someone who might be able to handle 30 grams.. 10 from fiber or something similar.
You say you are in ketosis at 50-60 grams a day, because you're workouts burn off the extra carbs psuLemon, but does the average person work out as hard as you? Should we suggest 50-60 might work for most people?
I also would like to note that you say you have hunger issues. Ketosis has degrees. In deep ketosis, you would not be overeating, adding lots of fat.. fat satiates, and you have no appetite. I had set mealtimes, where I ate, even if I wasn't hungry.. to get enough calories. If anything, I under-ate, which is why people doing the diet right, lose so much weight. It was hard to eat, unless I overate carbs, and then I would have cravings. If I ate very high fat, I would struggle to eat all my calories.. maybe 50-60 grams is more than you can actually handle, even with your workouts. A major benefit to me, is never craving foods, or feeling hungry.. you seem to not have as much protection from those issues.. maybe you are barely in ketosis.. maybe you aren't in it at all when you have 60 grams a day. You seem to be OK, and it works for you.. since you are a " fit guy ", so it's not a problem for you.. BUT, once again.. MOST people aren't like you.. most people do light workouts, and have a semi-sedentary job, and their upper limit is probably 30 NET, or 20 total to be absolutely sure they are in deep ketosis.
I would suggest that a person START at 20-30, get into ketosis, and slowly up carbs after the first month.. net or total.. whatever they count.. and pay attention to how they feel, and whether they have ANY cravings/hunger.. and while keto sticks might say you are in ketosis, use the results of how they feel, because the goal isn't to make a stick turn a certain color.. it should be to not feel hunger/cravings, and be able to easily stick to the plan, not worry about adding fat, or extra calories because you are hungry. Which is exactly why you do Keto. so you DON'T have that. It sounds to me like you are saying you are in keto, but not experiencing the hunger-cancelling benefit. IF anything, I under-stated how much it cancels hunger. It's great that it worked for you, but most people eat off plan when they have cravings. So it doesn't work for THEM.. the question to people is do they want to do keto, while still cravings foods not allowed, or do they wish to do so, without cravings, once you are in deep ketosis?
Also want to note that I did use 1.6g/kg of muscle mass. So a 5'10 inch person, weighs 160 lbs. total, and that is a 23 BMI.. I know this varies some, but I used the CDC BMI calculator.. lets say this person is 10% body fat, for ease in calculations.. at 174, they are overweight ( average person ).. so they are still pretty lean, but you subtract 16 lbs. of fat, and you have 144 lbs. of lbm. or about 65.5 kg of lbm X 1.6 equals 104. Average height for an American man is 5'10. There are a lot of people under 5'10", like me, so I suggested 75 as the bottom.. many men, but most women are under 5'10".. so they would eat less.. 110 lbs. of lbm ends up being 80 g.. so 75 would not be that low. The 2.2g/kg is for people looking to add serious muscle, and exercise extremely hard to do so.
I think we can see that I am talking about an average person, while you are talking about someone like you, and I don't think most people who straddle the max, do keto well, so I recommend backing off from the max, while you use the max as a guide for every day. I don't disagree with most of what you said, except the 50-60g and staying in ketosis.. I simply think you are talking upper limits, extremely fit people, who are above average height, and muscle mass, due to harder workouts, and while your info may be correct for them.. I think most people would fail on your advice. I admit, my advice is a bit low in some regards, and that some people might be fine on a bit ore carbs, or protein, and less fat.. but nowhere near where what worked for you.. what matters is what works for the OP.. and if they start with my info, they can get into ketosis, and move UP, as needed or desired, as long as it gets them the proper results... but if they start at the max, following your numbers, many will never get into ketosis, will have cravings, quit and say Keto doesn't work.
I should have been more emphatic about why I spoke of the info I gave, and explained it better, but so should you.. and let readers know that you are talking about max numbers, and that you might not have had a great need for Keto in the first place, since you hit your goals, despite still having cravings, and eating extra calories. Maybe say that the goal isn't to eat the max amount of carbs which allows you to stay in ketosis, and worry that you ate a couple more carbs than you thought, and are not actually IN ketosis.
In other words, people will be fine at 20 g of carbs.. maybe they can have 30g some days, and stay in ketosis, but that shouldn't be their goal.. find the max, but you can eat 2/3rds of what is the max, and not have to worry about cravings popping up, or being out of ketosis. My car can do 110 m.p.h., but I don't drive at the max. The same is true here.. telling others what the max might be, for reference, is fine, but don't suggest that is what anyone should eat every day.
People need to know why they want a certain amount of each macro, and that varies per individual. Hopefully, they figure out what will work for them. I think every cause that might change their macro ratios, has been covered.. high and low.
If you look at my first post, then you know i am not recommending something without getting more data. Your advise is over generalized. And in my long experience of working with people, running various ketogenics diets (modified, cyclical, and targeted) and being on this board, general advice is generally not very beneficial. There is considerations like are they fasting, how much are they exercising, and their stats.
Additionally, saying stuff like you can only eat 25g to be in ketosis, can set people up for failure. Why? Because people can get over fixated in that number. The fact is, you will go in and out of ketosis throughout the day. And that is ok. Even more, being in ketosis, doesn't always mean you are burning body fat. It just means you body is producing ketones. Also, ketosis is ketosis. Its like being a little bit pregnant. You are either in it or not. You don't get extra benefits from being deeper in ketosis.
What is important, more than anything, is whether or not you are getting the appetite suppressant capabilities from a ketogenic diet. If that can happen at 50g and that gives you a little extra room to get low gi berries or Greek yogurt, than its fantastic. After all, dietary compliance is critical.
So when i have people go into a keto diet, i will can people down towards 50 total at 30net. If they don't feel satiated, than i reduce carbs. I also vary protein based on their goals and or their diet phase; weight loss = more protein, maintenance = less, gaining = more.
My protein recommendations come from the top 2 protein metabolism researchers in the world. In fat loss phases, the recommend 1.6-2.2g/kg of lbm. In general, as you get leaner, you increase protein and as carbs decrease, protein should also increase. Why? Carbs are protein sparring and improve protein turnover, which at best keto diets are muscle sparring. Of the studies available, losses in LBM (not the same as muscle) is generally lost in ketogenic groups, as compared to carb based groups.
And lastly, fat is not exactly satiating. There are dozens of studies showing protein and fiber are the most satiating foods. I know personal, an 10 oz NY strip or 8oz Sirloin is more satiating than a 16 oz ribeye. I alsl know that low gi fruit is much more filling than butter or heavy cream. There is some evidence or hypothesis that ketosis in itself is what impacts hunger. At least from the information from Dominic D'Agistino, PhD.
Overall, a person should play with the numbers to see what works. That might be 20g... That may be 40-50g.10
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