Coming to grips with BMI
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For this purpose, probably one of the so-called "body fat calculators" (often "Navy body fat calculators") is another thing that will give you a screening metric. Is it 'accurate'? No. But it's another thing that's close for most people, and it takes a little different perspective from BMI, waist/height ratio, waist circumference, BIA scale, etc. If the majority of those say you're overweight or obese . . . you're probably overweight or obese. Not guaranteed, but very probable.
There are also "ideal weight calculators" on some sites, but I'm more skeptical of those . . . even though they should suggest I should weigh approximately what I now weigh. 😆2 -
It's been touched on by others here, but beyond the fact that BMI isn't a perfect indicator - society has also kind of lost perspective on what "skinny" or "in shape" looks like. On both ends for that matter. Sure there is the issue of people being told they are fat if they don't have stupid low levels of body fat. However, on the other hand it's equally or even more common for people to think overweight is skinny. Obese is overweight. and morbid obesity is obese. I'm smack dab in the middle of obesity based on my BMI. Do I think that's accurate? Not really. I've been working out for 9ish months now and I think I have a higher muscle mass than someone my size normally does. That said, I'm probably borderline Obese still (just not 30 pounds over the obesity mark like my BMI would suggest). That said, I have people all the time remark that I only have a bit more to lose because I'm now just "chubby/overweight" and they will argue with me when I tell them I'm obese.
tl;dr: People are surprised by what obese actually looks like. I think often when people think of obesity, they are thinking of morbid obesity and their views on "overweight" tend to actually be closer to what obesity really is.9 -
It's been touched on by others here, but beyond the fact that BMI isn't a perfect indicator - society has also kind of lost perspective on what "skinny" or "in shape" looks like. On both ends for that matter. Sure there is the issue of people being told they are fat if they don't have stupid low levels of body fat. However, on the other hand it's equally or even more common for people to think overweight is skinny. Obese is overweight. and morbid obesity is obese. I'm smack dab in the middle of obesity based on my BMI. Do I think that's accurate? Not really. I've been working out for 9ish months now and I think I have a higher muscle mass than someone my size normally does. That said, I'm probably borderline Obese still (just not 30 pounds over the obesity mark like my BMI would suggest). That said, I have people all the time remark that I only have a bit more to lose because I'm now just "chubby/overweight" and they will argue with me when I tell them I'm obese.
tl;dr: People are surprised by what obese actually looks like. I think often when people think of obesity, they are thinking of morbid obesity and their views on "overweight" tend to actually be closer to what obesity really is.
This. I was just barely into the obese range when I started to lose weight and I kind of recoiled HARD from the word, because in my head 'obese' meant 'currently suffering mobility and health complications directly related to their weight'. I was definitely FAT and I didn't have any sort of problem recognizing *that*, but obese to me was 'far outside the range of people I see every day'. Not me. I looked like most other people I am around. I was playing sports, ffs. Clearly I was fine.
Heck, I even remember calculating to see what weights I'd need to be for various BMIs and being like 'there is no way'. Did not compute that I had THAT much weight to lose.
...yeah, yeah there was a way and I had that much weight to lose.
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »So you currently weigh 252 pounds, with a BMI of 32.2, and based on a formula that assumes "average" body fat levels for your height and weight, you are considered obese. I don't see what is surprising about that.
I also don't understand how a picture of yourself from six years ago, 40 pounds lighter, is supposed to expose the BMI formula for your current assessment as somehow off the rails?
My assumption was that his point was that he did not consider himself to be overweight at 196, but according to BMI, his would be 25 and so indeed in the Overweight category.5 -
And in that pic from 6 years ago I was 212 pounds - about a 28 BMI - again overweight and heading into obese.
I never claimed that at my current weight and measurement I was not overweight, or not obese. Please don't conflate one piece of info with another.3 -
KeithBarrows wrote: »And in that pic from 6 years ago I was 212 pounds - about a 28 BMI - again overweight and heading into obese.
I never claimed that at my current weight and measurement I was not overweight, or not obese. Please don't conflate one piece of info with another.
What is the point you are trying to make, then? What is your "holy hell" about?3 -
KeithBarrows wrote: »And in that pic from 6 years ago I was 212 pounds - about a 28 BMI - again overweight and heading into obese.
I never claimed that at my current weight and measurement I was not overweight, or not obese. Please don't conflate one piece of info with another.
I'm almost the same height and weight as you in 6 year ago picture you shared (I'm about 5 years older than you). I've been +/- 10 pounds of this weight since freshman year in college and have been doing resistance work a on a regular basis since junior year of HS.
My employer offered annual physicals. They contracted the doctor services so generally had a different doctor every year. BMI has been on the questionnaire for at least the last 20 years. They would discuss every point on the questionnaire and every time when they got to BMI they would say BMI says you're overweight, but looking, you had good muscle mass and your BMI is not an issue.
Just my experience.2 -
@lynn_glenmont - you win. I am not here to argue. If you cannot figure out why I was surprised, that's on you.
@Theoldguy1 - Of all the doctors I've visited not once was my weight or weight to height ratio (BMI) ever brought up. And even though I was technically a 24 BMI starting bootcamp the Navy docs had to confer to see if I should be on an extra calorie diet during bootcamp. I guess this is why I tend to drop BMI from my tracking data. 6 & 7 years ago my wife and I were doing body composition competitions once a quarter. It took us each a year but we both ended up in the top 5 of those who entered. And yes - it was done by picture (posted above) as well as waist/shoulder measurements. Going through my notes from back then the fitness trainer told us both to toss the BMI as we were working out.3 -
@KeithBarrows I am omly commenting because you mentioned talking to a heart doctor - not clear for how serious a concern - and someone above explained that their heart doctor wanted them to get to a lower BMI because after a heart attack, more mass was a problem even if it was lean mass, as the heart had to work harder in either case. Just wondering if you saw that comment because you never responded (you don't have to respond, just making sure you have seen it in case it's relevant).
I am not a doctor, I would just recommend you ask your heart doc why exactly he is interested in BMI and dig in more into that. This whole conversation has been weirdly focused on how people look - but health is more important and your individual health should be discussed with your doctor. The internet's opinion on BMI won't be very relevant...9 -
@Wiseandcurious - My heart doc has so far said nothing about BMI/weight outside of my statement at our first appointment. "I am losing weight and exercising". His response was "Good.". BMI came up in trying to find a PCP in my general area. Some of the general web based intake forms asked if we considered ourselves overweight or not, among other health concerns we might have. One had a box for BMI. Almost all of these docs had a 3-6 month waiting list for the first appointment. I believe they use the answers from these sections to weight how quickly they should see you or if you can go to the bottom of the list.3
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NorthCascades wrote: »YellowD0gs wrote: »KeithBarrows wrote: »Thanks everyone for your input. As I am seeing a heart doc (a very recent development) and going in for my 60,000 mile checkup, err, 60 year physical, BMI was something that was asked on the intake forms for the new Doc. .
Ah HAH! Clarity is approaching. For what it's worth, I had my heart attacks 2 years ago and that obviously got me started with a Cardiologist and was the first time I saw "BMI" mentioned. Long story short, I had been bristling with them over the BMI reports, my on-going weight loss, etc etc, and finally took them to task to explain why they were taking such a vague metric so seriously. Their explanation at the time is that it doesn't really matter between fat and/or muscle, its all extra tissue that your heart has to pump blood through, and the more tissue, the more your heart has to work. Which is a thing for heart attack survivors. But as a "statement of health", yeah, generally meaningless.
It sounds like you've had multiple heart attacks, and your BMI is in the risk factor category, from what you're telling us?
Not any more, it isn't.2 -
Somewhere in recent years after the reintroduction of the BMI into medical society, the use of BMI has been skewed by general society. Probably when the internet became widely available.
The combination of the vague info needed and ability to quickly formulate a BMI made it once again a simple screening tool and nothing else.
As more current evidence became available recently doctors are implementing the waist measurement coupled with BMI as more efficient way of determining if any future screening is needed.
In other words, we as society put wayyyyy more importance of the BMI from lack of education.
Here is me at age 52 with a obese BMI...
In the past my doctor would look on paper before viewing me at my BMI and say I fit into the obese category. Then while screening me in person, they would notice I carry more than average muscle mass for a man my age, size, and weight.
Currently my doctor would look at my BMI and my waist measurement and know there is a very good chance I carry more than average muscle mass sight unseen.
Again, BMI isn't a tell all and is misunderstood.7 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »I'm not really sure what you are looking for.
BMI assumes average muscle, so yes, if you have above average muscle, then it will be off for you.
BMI is a populational metric, so it's only a very rough metric for individuals.
So again, I'm not entirely sure what you are looking for?
BMI is weight and height, body composition (bodyfat % or muscle) assumed or otherwise doesn't come into the equation.
Yes, I'm aware that the number doesn't assume anything, but the categorizations of "underweight," "healthy weight," "overweight," and "obese" do have assumptions of averages in terms of body composition built into them since they are based on populational averages.
Which makes the categories less applicable for individuals who deviate heavily from average in terms of body composition for their BMI.
True, but by definition, "individuals who deviate heavily from average" are not common.
Yep. I've noticed that most people that most people that hate BMI seem to think they are exceptional. Like no, BMI isn't a perfect measure, especially if you aren't a white male. It being a bad measure for an Olympic athlete doesn't mean that an average person looking is actually "healthy" if the chart says they are obese. But, everyone likes to think they are one of the outliers.
Now, what that measure means for people is individual of what you intend to do with that information and your actual health. But, far fewer people are outliers than like to think they are outliers.7 -
I don't think it's that uncommon for men to be outliers in that they can be not overfat but in the BMI overweight zone. It's less common for women or if you are getting obese numbers. There was a good discussion about it on Sigma Nutrition, with Spencer Nadolsky as the guest. It's usually pretty obvious from other measurements/your exercise history if there's an issue.2
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My BMI is 15.5 and they say it's underweight. My health is great and I don't look underweight ☺2
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I don't think it's that uncommon for men to be outliers in that they can be not overfat but in the BMI overweight zone. It's less common for women or if you are getting obese numbers. There was a good discussion about it on Sigma Nutrition, with Spencer Nadolsky as the guest. It's usually pretty obvious from other measurements/your exercise history if there's an issue.
You listen to good podcasts
While I agree it is less common for females to be outliers in that regard, it does happen. I'm currently categorized as overweight and before I started this kinda-sorta-cutting-but-nothing-formal, I was within 2 or 3 pounds of being obese.
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I suspect the level of mass someone can safely carry is very individual to that person. I used to be overweight, but not obese. My BMI was 28, but I was on the verge of diabetes. So I went on a diet and started to exercise a lot.
I cut to a BMI of 21 (142 pounds), and have stayed there for the last 3 years. My blood glucose is now normal, and other health markers improved as well. I have no idea what the maximum BMI I can get away with, but it's less than 28 and more than 21.4 -
I don't think it's that uncommon for men to be outliers in that they can be not overfat but in the BMI overweight zone. It's less common for women or if you are getting obese numbers. There was a good discussion about it on Sigma Nutrition, with Spencer Nadolsky as the guest. It's usually pretty obvious from other measurements/your exercise history if there's an issue.
You listen to good podcasts While I agree it is less common for females to be outliers in that regard, it does happen. I'm currently categorized as overweight and before I started this kinda-sorta-cutting-but-nothing-formal, I was within 2 or 3 pounds of being obese.
Oh, I agree. Definitely possible (and impressive!) but of course you fit into the "pretty obvious from other measurements/your exercise history"!5 -
MercuryForce wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »I'm not really sure what you are looking for.
BMI assumes average muscle, so yes, if you have above average muscle, then it will be off for you.
BMI is a populational metric, so it's only a very rough metric for individuals.
So again, I'm not entirely sure what you are looking for?
BMI is weight and height, body composition (bodyfat % or muscle) assumed or otherwise doesn't come into the equation.
Yes, I'm aware that the number doesn't assume anything, but the categorizations of "underweight," "healthy weight," "overweight," and "obese" do have assumptions of averages in terms of body composition built into them since they are based on populational averages.
Which makes the categories less applicable for individuals who deviate heavily from average in terms of body composition for their BMI.
True, but by definition, "individuals who deviate heavily from average" are not common.
Yep. I've noticed that most people that most people that hate BMI seem to think they are exceptional. Like no, BMI isn't a perfect measure, especially if you aren't a white male. It being a bad measure for an Olympic athlete doesn't mean that an average person looking is actually "healthy" if the chart says they are obese. But, everyone likes to think they are one of the outliers.
Now, what that measure means for people is individual of what you intend to do with that information and your actual health. But, far fewer people are outliers than like to think they are outliers.
Okay sure, but that comment was in response to my previous comment, and I only said it because OP posted a photo of themselves where they appeared to have more than the average amount of muscle.
So if OP is still as muscular, then it seems very reasonable to assume that they might not be very well represented by the average.
Which seems to have been OP's point the entire time, that because of his muscle mass, that he doesn't feel that the BMI labels are appropriate for his build.
He's only posted old photos though, so it's impossible to comment on the present. People can lose a lot of muscle in 5 years. So who knows.
But my original reply to him was basically along the lines of "yeah, if you have above average muscle mass, then the BMI categorizations may not be accurate for you".
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