L-Arginine 30 grams a day - Count it as Protein or just Calories? Better sleep and HGH output?

Poobah1972
Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
edited November 2021 in Food and Nutrition
Good day guys,

Cutting straight to the chase...

If I were to start taking L-Arginine at 30 grams per day should I count that as 30 grams of protein... allowing it count toward my daily macro goal? Or would it be better to show it as just full calories with no specific macros. Or perhaps
count full calories and only a portion of protein?

Reasoning, since L-Arginine is just a single Aminoacidic and no where near complete, it likely can't be utilized to the extent that a fully balanced serving of complete amino acids would? And I want to ensure I'm hitting a satisfactory level of protein to feed my muscles and current goals.

I was thinking of counting the full calories at 4 cals per gram or 120 cals, but only counting it as 7.5 grams of protein?

Oddly looking it up online... Most places show it as calories and not protein? So it isn't at all clear what the best coarse of action is.

Why do I want to take 30 grams of L-Arginine daily.

There was a study, not huge by any means, that showed that when individuals were given doses of 20 grams a day, there serum levels of HGH rose by 60%. L-Arginine also is known to assist with relaxation, better sleep and lower blood pressure. They also tested individuals with a much smaller dose less then half of the larger dose, and there was no increase in blood serum. Which might mean smaller doses will be fully utilized elsewhere, before the mechanisms that result in higher HGH levels are encountered.

So being a big believer in Volumetric dosing... And seeing that I'm now 350.6 pounds (down 137.1 pounds since January 9, 2021... YEAH BABY!). I figure 30 grams is about right for me, first thing in the morning with my breakfast.

Why take it?

I've been using Nyquil every other day with a pretty strong dose of melatonin for a fairly guaranteed deep sleep going into my double workout days (cardio and weights). Although it could be argued having a better sleep would be more beneficial following the workout. either way though.

I'm cutting myself off from Nyquil, as one it's fairly expensive. And 2 I find it harder and hard to get a good sleep on the in-between days. To make matters worse since injuring my back/tailbone/sciatic nerve (not 100% what the problem is) 4 weeks ago. My quality sleep has declined dramatically, nor have I been able to do any cardio. (A whole other issue, thankfully I can still manage my weight lifting sessions and I'm still losing fat weekly).

Now I'm going to take the following (Let's call it an experiment)

30 grams L-Arginine every morning - Don't take at night or it will actually stimulate you. (as previously explained)
1 melatonin time release 10mg every night. - Before bed (Shown to increase HGH, as a result of better / deeper sleep)
3 grams of Gaba - Before Bed (shown to increase HGH by as much as 400% even if only very short term, might be enough to get you to sleep and kick off the night. Some say though it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, but other swear by it, and the study I read was oral dosed. So Why not? meh)
1000mg of Magnesium - at supper (muscle relaxer, de-stress, lowers blood pressure all equals better sleep)

The idea is...

All these are associated with either getting to sleep, better quality sleep, and or High HGH output while you sleep.

On top of that KETO is already significantly heightens HGH levels, as does fasting which i continue to do 1 day a week...

The whole goal here is to get significantly improved and consistent sleep nightly. While raising HGH levels potentially significantly enough to improve my bodies ability to recover/build muscle between workouts.

Plus this little experiment gives me something to refocus on while I'm injured and mostly miserable while I keep my diet on laser focus, even though my cardio been completely side lined.

Any thoughts are welcome really... lol :)

Replies

  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    Might be worth you reading about HGH from Layne Norton....

    https://www.biolayne.com/media/videos/educational/growth-hormone-does-not-grow-muscle/

    Links to studies on that page too.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,222 Member
    Just my opinion as a long-term vegetarian: Don't count the full amount as protein. Unless you do something else to round out the amino acid profile, I personally wouldn't count it as protein at all. It just muddies the waters nutritionally to do so, IMO.

    Sensible sources suggest that vegetarians should get a bit more protein than omnivores, since our sources include more essential amino acid (EAA) incomplete sources. Even those sources aren't merely one single amino acid, they're just a little short in one or a few EAAs, relatively speaking. (For a veg, part of a good plan IMO is also to vary sources during the day to get a more well-rounded overall EAA profile, though I'm not slavish about complementing precisely.)

    While we don't have to get perfect well-rounded essential amino acid completeness in each and every meal, it's a thing to aim for over relatively short time horizons. I don't see how a single amino acid is much help in that context, unless you happened to eat a lot of other foods specifically short in L-arginine (which seems improbable).

    This is just a gut-feel opinion, though.
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    edited November 2021
    sijomial wrote: »
    Might be worth you reading about HGH from Layne Norton....

    https://www.biolayne.com/media/videos/educational/growth-hormone-does-not-grow-muscle/

    Links to studies on that page too.

    I appreciate the link... And yeah, keto while it does increase HGH output as does fasting. Fasting doesn't actually help anyone build muscle. I guess I just like fasting on Sundays for a whole bunch of reasons. But to increase muscle mass due to HGH, yeah that's not going to happen here. Keto from what I've read is known to be muscle sparing while cutting and perhaps that in part is due to HGH and IGF-1 output. Right now I'm down 133 pounds on KETO and I have indeed actually grew probably 20 pounds of muscle since I started. It's hard to say for sure its due specifically to HGH / IGF-1. But it's happening none the less. I continue to get stronger every single week 6 months in.

    As for the rest of it... Yeah a lot of people think HGH will make you grow ravenously... And yeah I guess it could if your injecting a wack of it with way to much money in your pocket and not enough good sense.

    But in reality that's not really the right expectations... Increases in HGH which I think might be possible through supplementation I laid out... Could allow you a much higher quality sleep which indeed can allow better recovery from your workouts.. which indirectly can boost performance and end up allowing one to increase muscle mass more effectively. Also while HGH doesn't increase muscle mass on it's own, it is a signaler for IGF-1 output that does indeed help build muscle mass. (although probably not so much under mild naturalesque levels).

    Whether I'm wrong or not (and I could be completely wrong and my sleep may not improve at all lol)... At the very least if this experimentation results in better sleep. I think that's worth a shot.. Better sleep makes all things possible. Including the building of muscle mass.

    I have 5 months or so of FITBIT sleep data, to see if there is indeed a notable up tick in DEEP and REM Sleep patterns. So we shall see.
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Just my opinion as a long-term vegetarian: Don't count the full amount as protein. Unless you do something else to round out the amino acid profile, I personally wouldn't count it as protein at all. It just muddies the waters nutritionally to do so, IMO.

    Sensible sources suggest that vegetarians should get a bit more protein than omnivores, since our sources include more essential amino acid (EAA) incomplete sources. Even those sources aren't merely one single amino acid, they're just a little short in one or a few EAAs, relatively speaking. (For a veg, part of a good plan IMO is also to vary sources during the day to get a more well-rounded overall EAA profile, though I'm not slavish about complementing precisely.)

    While we don't have to get perfect well-rounded essential amino acid completeness in each and every meal, it's a thing to aim for over relatively short time horizons. I don't see how a single amino acid is much help in that context, unless you happened to eat a lot of other foods specifically short in L-arginine (which seems improbable).

    This is just a gut-feel opinion, though.

    Thanks... So we are thinking along similar lines. I appreciate the input. I'll go full calories and only 7.5 grams of protein. Should be close enough. ;)
  • Cheesy567
    Cheesy567 Posts: 1,186 Member
    Do you think it’s going to affect your total calorie intake or weight loss progress? Are you going to adjust your other macros or intake based upon it?

    In other words, does adding in this data affect your other data?

    I take several meds and a few supplements, but do not log them. Nor do I log the applesauce or pudding I need to take them with (I have dysphagia and cannot swallow pills with liquids). I also do not log the things I use to modify the liquids I drink. Why? Yes, they have calories. But I can’t change the fact that I take them every day. They’re a constant in my life. So, the diet changes around them. No matter how much I need to cut calories, the big honking horse pills stay constant. The thickeners, if I need them, stay there.

    So, unless you’re going to cut 30 calories from somewhere else, why even log it?
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    edited November 2021
    Cheesy567 wrote: »
    Do you think it’s going to affect your total calorie intake or weight loss progress? Are you going to adjust your other macros or intake based upon it?

    In other words, does adding in this data affect your other data?

    I take several meds and a few supplements, but do not log them. Nor do I log the applesauce or pudding I need to take them with (I have dysphagia and cannot swallow pills with liquids). I also do not log the things I use to modify the liquids I drink. Why? Yes, they have calories. But I can’t change the fact that I take them every day. They’re a constant in my life. So, the diet changes around them. No matter how much I need to cut calories, the big honking horse pills stay constant. The thickeners, if I need them, stay there.

    So, unless you’re going to cut 30 calories from somewhere else, why even log it?

    Yes I'm logging the full calories for the 30 gram's of L-Arginine... But mostly as it's a rather large serving with a significant amount of calories (120 cals). I don't really concern myself over regular supplements that come in pill forms like you say, it's not really worth the trouble. (Unless I was taking an abundance of fish oils or something along that line).

    I'm still at a pretty huge deficit, and my calorie intake has been drifting upward slowly since the beginning (purposely as planned), as has my protein intake. Which is now around 140-160 grams a day. With the intent of feeding my muscles and giving them the best chance to grow even in light of the deficit. Seems to be working, based on my lifts. Oddly they have all gotten stronger faster during this injury that has sidelined me from cardio. Makes sense, I didn't reduce calories, and I'm not burning an extra 3000-5000 calories a week... So all those calories I'm not burning can be used where it will best serve its purpose I guess?

    As for L-Arginine so far? Still early days, but I was not aware that L-Arginine has some sexual performance benefits until the first day I used it. This dose seems to be greatly increasing blood flow, specially in the first half the day. I can see it my arms and hands. But if you get aroused, it also works like Viagra I figure. Anyway, I googled it after the fact, and thought. Yeah, that makes sense. lol

    EDIT - Now down 137 pounds.. Booyah!
    EDIT - And can now rep 80 pound dumbells for a full 10 reps. (Movin on up). ;)
  • Poobah1972
    Poobah1972 Posts: 943 Member
    edited November 2021
    An update to anyone that has interest. (If any... lol)

    I reiterated some about the products I'm taking, as I posted else where, but I'll leave it mostly intact as it's pretty concise and might make more sense then my initial attempt. More importantly I have some proof that it may actually be working.

    I gained 3 pounds this week, even though my diet was fine tuned.

    Win some lose some? But this was expected, and in some ways may indicate the plan I hatched recently is having a good effect.

    Recently mentioned previuosly I started a few new supplements with the purposes of:

    Improved quality of Sleep (Without Nyquil)
    Improved recovery and healing.

    I have had a hard time getting any quality sleep of late, A big part of that obviously has been the pain and discomfort I find myself in at night. But I think an equally big part of that was my reliance on Nyquil 3 times a week. It got to the point that sleeping on "Off-Nyquil" was a struggle at best. And if I'm not sleeping well, I'm not recovering well at all.

    On top of that, the pain in my left elbow (tennis elbow) has not gone away in over 2 months now, and I would love to see if there is something I can do about it. Other then wrapping it every single morning, under compression for improved heat and blood flow for half the day. (Which i have done diligently).

    So I did a bunch of research and narrowed my focus down to the following...

    L-Arginine (a single Amino-acid) a whopping mega dose of 30 grams every morning

    L-Arginine is known to be a vasodilator opening up blood vessels, and is sometimes given to people intravenously to do just, that increase blood flow and by so doing increase healing. It also lowers blood pressure, which is fine as long as you don't have low blood pressure to begin with.

    Even more interesting, there was a study that showed mega dosing 20Grams a day resulted in a 60% increase in Human Growth Hormone. More interesting, if people were given a smaller dose of half or less then that, there was no rise in human growth hormone. The mechanism that requires a Mega dose to be effect in raising Human Growth hormone is unknown. But seeing as I'm much larger then the average guy, I figure a 30 gram dose should be sufficient to illicit this rise in human Growth hormone.

    Why try and increase Human Growth Hormone?

    There is a very strong relation ship between Glucose, Insulin, HGH (Human Growth Hormone) and Ketones. Human growth output is already greatly effected by Ketogenic diets and fasting. The lower the Glucose level, the lower the insulin level, the inverse is also true. Which is higher HGH output and Ketone production.

    Many people think that HGH helps build muscle, but that's not actually true. What HGH is good for is Mobilizing Fat, and healing the body (More so bone, organs, Connective tissue, tendons as opposed to muscles), however increases HGH does signal the production of IGF-1 which is very muscle sparing and is one main reason a Keto diet can be so effective during weight loss while maintaining muscle tissue. And as a side bonus, it can have a strong impact on your quality of sleep. (Sleeping teenagers are hard to wake in part due to there naturally high HGH output).

    So what if I actually am causing a 60% increase in HGH in my body overtop what would already be fairly higher then normal levels of HGH from Keto and fasting? Well for starters based on a chart I looked at... This amount HGH could represent the difference found in someone that is 50 years old appearing to have HGH levels of someone that is 20 years old. And as a matter of reasoning it could be possible that person will now have a propensity to heal themselves as if they were now 20 years old, with better sleep and all that good ness.

    The bad news, and what might explain my weight gain this week!

    Supplementation of L-Arginine even in much smaller doses than I have been taking is well known for causingwater retention.

    And sure enough, increases in HGH is also known for causing water retention...

    So the 3 pounds I gained this week was expected and it makes sense... Besides increases in water through all the tissues may well help facilitate the break down of fat for energy, as well as the repair of damaged muscles (water is the transportation system). So it's a good thing, even though my shoes might get a little tighter? lol

    Evidence that the plan is actually raising my HGH levels significantly?

    Dramatically higher Ketone Reading
    Healing of Injuries
    Higher percentage of Deep and REM sleep.

    Ketones

    Now this is all early days... However the thing about Glucose, Insulin, Ketones and HGH all being closely linked is true. So this morning for the first time in few months, I decided to test my Glucose and ketone level. My Ketone level was an amazing 4.6 where as on average on a Monday morning after fasting it would usually be about 2.2 - 2.5. (although it once was at 3.4 after I did a ridiculous amount of cardio on Sunday, so I count this as an outlier).

    So for all practical calculations it's fair to say my ketone level was about double my average and definitely way higher then it has ever been. (and I haven't been doing any cardio at all). Further to that my GKI was 1.4 (1 being the best possible GKI, after just 36 hours of fasting). Usually GKI of that level take at least a few days sometimes more to achieve.

    So that is a pretty astonishing number considering the amount of history and data I have on hand. So this may well indicate, that HGH is indeed circulating at higher levels, resulting in higher Fat Mobilization and once turned into my liver, a higher ketone production rate, resulting in higher Ketone levels.

    Healing of Injuries

    So that nagging Tennis elbow injury on my left shoulder that I have been nursing for months that I continue to aggravate every back and bicep day. That I also aggravate Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays when I do my grip exercises at work. The same elbow I literally wrap every single morning for a good 6 hours a day. for the first time in months doesn't hurt, when I fully extend my arm or when I squeeze my elbow with my other hand. I know this doesn't sound like much. And it could well be just a coincidence or a side effect of water retention, or it could indeed just the Effects of L-Arginine's vasodilating my blood vessels and the resulting boost of healing blood flow. But it is what it is, and I'm grateful.

    Now I'll be doing my grip exercises later today, and back and bicep's is tonight.. So we will see if my luck continues.

    Unfortunately, thus far it hasn't helped with my other leg/IT band issues. but maybe it will come.

    As for faster recovery.. Definitely to early to tell. But I can tell you I did some high volume chest workout on Saturday, Working my way from 60 pounds to 95 pound DB chest presses (Yes I benched 95 pound dumbells, granted only for 1 rep. lol) to failure in all 5 sets. And I feel absolutely nothing in my chest today... Or my Triceps which I also punished. (and usually I do feel something 2 days later). Am I certain? No... But still everything seems to point in a certain direction.

    Higher percentage of Deep and REM sleep.

    This one is a little harder to quantify just yet. I think for one, the pain is still a stumbling block. And for two, I still might be holding onto a little dependence on Nyquil, Although I haven't had any in a week.

    But on the bright side, I do have 6 or 7 months of sleep data from my fitbit. And sure enough even though my sleep still hasn't been where I want it to be. More or less only getting 5 hours and sleep scores south of 50 sometimes. My sleep has improved slightly the last 3 nights, and more interestingly my Deep and REM portion of sleep as increased by about 50%.. Where as I was getting less then an hour Deep/REM I am now getting a 1.5 hours Deep and REM sleep.

    And from my research it is consistent to get a higher proportion of DEEP and REM sleep with Higher levels of HGH output. So I'll take this as further evidence that this HGH increase thing may actually be happening.

    Hopefully sleep will continue to normalize and get better. 77 sleep score last night was refreshing.

    In closing

    I had no idea I was going to write this much. But I guess the point is I'll take the 3 pound gain if it means my plan is working to some extent, which the evidence seems to indicate.

    Also... I'm taking the following as part of this stack.

    1000mg of Magnesium with supper. This relaxes the body, particularly the muscles, and lowers cortisol. Again leading to better sleep and recovery.
    5 grams of gaba right before bed. - suppose to very temporarily raise HGH levels by as much as 400%, but this is controversial, as it's not suppose to cross the blood brain barrier on it's own. I may drop it, as I'm not convinced. But it does make me flush for with tingly sensation which is very odd.
    Melatonin - Just the 1 x 10mg capsule.

    I'm also considering taking Kava Kava, but I worry perhaps that might also be habit forming? And my order got cancelled from amazon.com, and sent back. I'm assuming due to over the border issues? I may try again?

    Bonus side effect... The magnesium has made me poop completely regular. Like every single day. And this was an issue for a while now. SO YAH FOR MAGNESIUM and shame on me for not starting it sooner. lol

    Okay... I talked enough i think? I'll continue to monitor my ketone levels from time to time to see if these elevated levels continue. If they do, than I figure that is pretty darn good proof it is actually working. Otherwise it's a pretty strange coincidence?:)

    have a great day everyone!

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