Coming to grips with BMI

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  • Carlos_421
    Carlos_421 Posts: 5,132 Member
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    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    How tall do I have to be to be considered in the healthy range at 194? lol
    At 5' 8", I'm in the overweight range when I crest 165 and obese at 197.

    Ever get your bodyfat measured by a reliable method?

    I was referring to the height disparity between myself and the OP (joking about the fact the healthy BMI range for my height is a good 30 pounds lower than for his).
    I wasn't commenting on my actual weight status.

    But to answer your question, no I've never wasted my money getting my body fat measured (I'm not a competitive bodybuilder so there's no real point in doing so).
  • Carlos_421
    Carlos_421 Posts: 5,132 Member
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    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I don't think it's that uncommon for men to be outliers in that they can be not overfat but in the BMI overweight zone. It's less common for women or if you are getting obese numbers. There was a good discussion about it on Sigma Nutrition, with Spencer Nadolsky as the guest. It's usually pretty obvious from other measurements/your exercise history if there's an issue.

    Agreed, I didn't mean that outliers are rare. Just extreme ones, like those who measure as obese but are lean.
    Slightly overweight but pretty lean is more common, I think.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 8,995 Member
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    Sporty young men being healthy at slightly out of BMI range - ie with BMI's of 27 or 28 - is quite common.

    Not extreme outliers and not competitive body builders - just regular fit young men.

    or what Carlos is saying " Slightly overweight but pretty lean is more common"
  • Mellouk89
    Mellouk89 Posts: 469 Member
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    A BMI of 28 vs. a BMI of 25 is a 20lbs difference, it is quite significant. I don't think "slightly" out of range is the right wording. Your doctor would let you know if you were 20lbs overweight.
  • MargaretYakoda
    MargaretYakoda Posts: 2,350 Member
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    Mellouk89 wrote: »
    A BMI of 28 vs. a BMI of 25 is a 20lbs difference, it is quite significant. I don't think "slightly" out of range is the right wording. Your doctor would let you know if you were 20lbs overweight.

    Lots of doctors don’t mention when their patients are overweight. There’s a whole big discussion here about that.
  • KeithBarrows
    KeithBarrows Posts: 34 Member
    edited November 2021
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    Some service branches take a fresh look at body composition assessment methods, but weight still a focal point.

    The U.S. Army and other branches of the military are taking a fresh look at how they measure body composition to determine if it is accurately associated with performance.

    The U.S. Department of Defense instruction 1308.3 mandates that each service branch carry out physical fitness and body fat programs and procedures. In general, the military establishes minimum physical standards for recruitment and retention by measuring body fat based on height and weight tests or based on measurements at the neck and waist. Body composition is calculated using the body mass index (BMI).

    The standards are not easy to meet. Right now, according to a Dec. 22, 2020, Congressional Research Service report, “19% of U.S. adults ages 18-24 would not meet standards for accession to the U.S. military due to obesity.”

    However, some experts consider BMI-based body composition calculations to be a problematic way to measure body fat overall, gauge healthy weight ranges among and between racial and ethnic groups, or predict health outcomes in general. (See a rundown of the BMI issue at https://www.insider.com/is-bmi-accurate.)

    Many of the military’s body composition programs haven’t been updated since the 1940s, when society looked very different, said Katrina Velasquez, a lobbyist with the nonprofit Eating Disorders Coalition. The average American — and service member — is taller with more muscle mass.

    Velasquez: Weight-based body composition programs are harmful and stigmatizing

    BMI testing is not only an inaccurate measure of health, “it’s actually pretty harmful,” Velasquez said, because it can trigger eating disorders in service members predisposed to develop one.

    She said research shows that the service member population is developing eating disorders at a higher rate than the general population, which is roughly 9%. The military has few treatment options for this mental illness, she added.

    Velasquez said she’s heard from numerous service members who’ve engaged in unhealthy behaviors to “make weight.” These include eating almost nothing ahead of weigh-ins, wearing plastic to sweat off pounds or taking laxatives. The body composition programs also often layer on stigmatizing and stressful elements such as announcing weights out loud in group settings or separating out or threatening to fire service members who don’t make weight, she said.

    Certain service branches look at new assessment methods

    The following studies or policy changes suggest that some service branches are open to considering changes to body composition programs:

    Army: The U.S. Army on Oct. 18 launched the first evaluation in 30 years of its body composition test, examining its association with physical fitness to determine if changes are needed to regulatory guidance, training and instructional programs, or to the mechanics of the program. The U.S. Army Center for Initial Military Training and the U.S. Army Institute of Environmental Medicine are conducting the research.

    Sgt. Major of the Army Michael Grinston kicked off the study at Fort Bragg by taking the test, which uses four techniques to assess body composition: 1) standard AR 600-9 tape test, 2) dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA), 3) three-dimensional total body scanning and 4) bioelectrical impedance analysis. Researchers are looking at body size and composition and comparing them to soldiers’ most recent physical fitness score and to dates and types of injuries. For females, the study is reviewing the number and dates of pregnancies, delivery methods, and first postpartum physical fitness score and Army Body Composition Program record. Army officials said initial findings should be out in December, but that final data will be ready in six to nine months.

    Marine Corps: The U.S. Marine Corps’ (USMC) Human Performance Office is collaborating with the Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine to study body composition using various methods to assess fat mass, lean mass and bone mineral density. The review aims to determine whether the USMC’s policies and standards balance “health, performance, fitness and appearance.” According to a USMC study webpage, the Quantico-based study, which began in June 2021 and extends through the second quarter of 2022, will inform the future of body composition standards in the Marine Corps.

    Navy: The Navy’s body composition assessment protocols, dated April 2021, don’t appear to be under review. (See the guide at https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Support/21stCenturySailor/Physical/Guide%204-Body%20Composition%20Assessment-BCA-APR%202021.pdf?ver=UXBxbuAy0713JcZBkRRy2g%3d%3d.)

    Air Force: The U.S. Air Force recently removed waist measurement as a scored component of its soon-to-be-revamped physical fitness test, and distributed those points across three main fitness categories. However, Air Force officials said that waists may still be measured as part of a body composition assessment that was set to start again this fall, according to a May 26 news release. Officials said details would be released at a later date.

    Velasquez contended that the military does not need to use weight at all in health assessments. Instead, service members’ fitness could be measured through calculations of metabolic rates, blood pressure or other vital signs.

    “From our perspective at the Eating Disorders Coalition, actually having a focus on hitting a certain weight is still going to be triggering into an eating disorder,” Velasquez said.

    Learn more

    Review the Army’s news release on its study, dated Oct. 18, 2021: https://www.dvidshub.net/news/407457/us-army-evaluate-relationship-between-body-composition-and-physical-fitness.

    Review the Army Body Composition Program guidelines, dated Aug. 16, 2019: https://www.armyresilience.army.mil/ard/images/pdf/Policy/AR%20600-9%20The%20Army%20Body%20Composition%20Program.pdf.

    Review the USMC study webpage: https://www.fitness.marines.mil/Body-Composition-and-Resources/Body-Composition-Study/Marine-Corps-Base-Quantico-Body-Composition-Study.

    Review the Air Force’s news release on its fitness assessment alternatives, dated July 2, 2021: https://www.afpc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2681139/air-force-releases-cardio-and-strength-fitness-assessment-alternatives-new-onli.

    Read the Congressional Research Service report, “Obesity in the United States and Effects on Military Recruiting,” dated Dec. 22, 2020: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IF11708.pdf.
  • Xellercin
    Xellercin Posts: 924 Member
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    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I don't think it's that uncommon for men to be outliers in that they can be not overfat but in the BMI overweight zone. It's less common for women or if you are getting obese numbers. There was a good discussion about it on Sigma Nutrition, with Spencer Nadolsky as the guest. It's usually pretty obvious from other measurements/your exercise history if there's an issue.

    Agreed, I didn't mean that outliers are rare. Just extreme ones, like those who measure as obese but are lean.
    Slightly overweight but pretty lean is more common, I think.

    I don't think OP is claiming that his BMI is obese, but he's lean. I believe he said that he's aware that he needs to lose weight, but I think his point was that he doesn't feel like he has *as much* fat as the BMI is suggesting.

    I really think that's all he was trying to say.
  • KeithBarrows
    KeithBarrows Posts: 34 Member
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    I am the OP. :)

    When I was in the Corps, and for several years after, I weighed 196 +/- 2 pounds, and for my height that put me at 25.2 BMI - the low end of over weight (not obese). Later in age I weighed 210 +/- 2 pounds and placed in a body composition competition. That put my BMI at 27.0. Again, overweight. Today? my BMI is at 32.1 (obese). 6 months ago it was at 29.9 (borderline obese) when I went on a heart med. The weight gain has been atrocious and a 75% calorie intake plus working out was not bringing it down at all.

    I do not expect to ever be in the so called Healthy range on the BMI. I was up until I went to boot camp. Since then - never again will I see that unless I get seriously sick - and I mean very, very, very sick.

    I do not trust the BMI as a standard indicator. My heart doc has said NOTHING about weight. My stress test came back normal with a good recovery rate - before the BP was down in the normal range. And now, on the Keto diet these last 16 or so days, my BP is starting to get too low. I am almost out of the obese BMI range and am hoping to be back to 210 pounds within the next 4-8 months.

    So - all I was trying to say at the beginning is when my BMI says I am over weight, I am at my fittest.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 8,995 Member
    edited November 2021
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    Mellouk89 wrote: »
    A BMI of 28 vs. a BMI of 25 is a 20lbs difference, it is quite significant. I don't think "slightly" out of range is the right wording. Your doctor would let you know if you were 20lbs overweight.

    As the poster who wrote that fit young men are often healthy slightly our of range ie BMI of up to 28 - yes I do think slightly was the wording I meant.

    In other words such men could be up to 20lb higher than a BMI of 25 and that is healthy for them.

    That is exactly what I meant.

  • Carlos_421
    Carlos_421 Posts: 5,132 Member
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    Mellouk89 wrote: »
    A BMI of 28 vs. a BMI of 25 is a 20lbs difference, it is quite significant. I don't think "slightly" out of range is the right wording. Your doctor would let you know if you were 20lbs overweight.

    As the poster who wrote that fit young men are often healthy slightly our of range ie BMI of up to 28 - yes I do think slightly was the wording I meant.

    In other words such men could be up to 20lb higher than a BMI of 25 and that is healthy for them.

    That is exactly what I meant.

    This has been my exact situation.
    A BMI of 28 (around 185 lbs at 5' 8"), is about 20 lbs overweight for me on the BMI scale. I've weighed about that much before I lifted weights and I've weighed that much (and more, frankly) after spending years in the gym building muscle.
    Pre lifting, at over 180 I had a poochy belly. Years later when I'd lost the weight but then slowly bulked my way back up while lifting heavy, I could weigh even a few pounds more and sure, with my shirt off you could see my fat, but with a t-shirt on, I'd just look broad shouldered and thick chested, my belly not sticking out past my chest.

    Did the goal become to shred back down into the 160s? Sure.
    Do I think any doctor would bring up my weight as a concern? I can't imagine.
  • Carlos_421
    Carlos_421 Posts: 5,132 Member
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    Xellercin wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I don't think it's that uncommon for men to be outliers in that they can be not overfat but in the BMI overweight zone. It's less common for women or if you are getting obese numbers. There was a good discussion about it on Sigma Nutrition, with Spencer Nadolsky as the guest. It's usually pretty obvious from other measurements/your exercise history if there's an issue.

    Agreed, I didn't mean that outliers are rare. Just extreme ones, like those who measure as obese but are lean.
    Slightly overweight but pretty lean is more common, I think.

    I don't think OP is claiming that his BMI is obese, but he's lean. I believe he said that he's aware that he needs to lose weight, but I think his point was that he doesn't feel like he has *as much* fat as the BMI is suggesting.

    I really think that's all he was trying to say.

    I don't think the comments you quoted were aimed so much at OP as they were at the first response to OP, where the poster implied that BMI is useless because Arnold was obese when he won Mr. Olympia.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
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    The ONLY people BMI does not provide an estimate for are professional athletes (think the likes of mike tyson, or professional bodybuilders).

    What's the source for this? I mentioned above a podcast with Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, who discussed studies and so on, and it's not that uncommon for a fit young man to have sufficient muscle (without being a professional athlete or bodybuilder) to be healthy and not have excessive bodyfat but be in the overweight BMI.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
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    Yes, definitely.
  • Mellouk89
    Mellouk89 Posts: 469 Member
    edited December 2021
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    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    The ONLY people BMI does not provide an estimate for are professional athletes (think the likes of mike tyson, or professional bodybuilders).

    What's the source for this? I mentioned above a podcast with Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, who discussed studies and so on, and it's not that uncommon for a fit young man to have sufficient muscle (without being a professional athlete or bodybuilder) to be healthy and not have excessive bodyfat but be in the overweight BMI.

    A man can lift for three months and be at an overweight bmi while lean.

    If an 18 year old start lifting weights somewhat seriously for a year with minimal fat gain then bmi is not going to apply to him.

    Saying that it only applies to professional athletes is a hilarious statement. You don't have to be a professional athlete to gain muscle mass.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    Velasquez contended that the military does not need to use weight at all in health assessments. Instead, service members’ fitness could be measured through calculations of metabolic rates, blood pressure or other vital signs.

    Perhaps not in "health" assessments, but it's still an important metric. When I was in the Marines, weight was only partially a "health" matter. For the most part, the guys I served with were just lean and healthy Marines who just looked fit and athletic, but weight still became a factor with some guys who became too muscular and too heavy, even though they were quite lean because if you go down in combat, someone has to pick you up and pull your *kitten* out of there. This wasn't really an issue with guys who were slightly overweight but lean per BMI (I typically fall into that category and I'm not a big guy), but we had some guys really get into bodybuilding and stuff like that where they would be pushing that line of obese or over it, and it mattered in those instances because normal Marines have to be able to extract you if you go down.
  • dontlikepeople
    dontlikepeople Posts: 132 Member
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    You vastly over estimate how many people are fit enough to break the BMI chart. Vastly.

    And yes, ONLY professional athletes break the BMI chart. If someone is BMI 26 and lean, that's not breaking the chart, it's still a reasonable estimate. But if you're BMI 26 and lean, you're in extremely good shape, significantly better shape than 90% of the western population.

    Give me an example that proves me wrong, and that example will be an outlier. Unless you are professional athlete, the BMI estimate is very, very good.
  • dontlikepeople
    dontlikepeople Posts: 132 Member
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    > A man can lift for three months and be at an overweight bmi while lean.


    And you thought MY statement was hilarious? Okay.