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What amount of money is a “livable wage”?
Davidjohnson9333
Posts: 32 Member
How much money would you need to make per year after taxes to live comfortably? This would need to cover medical insurance, everything….
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Replies
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You go first.5
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I could see us living comfortable on 75K a year. We live ok now on what we make but there are few extras in life(course there are definitely ways we could save such as cutting out cigarettes and soda....pointing to hubby). I'd love to travel and that's not going to happen much unless we scrimp, plan and save. At 68, who's got time or motivation for that?
Ok, now that I've broken the ice, have at it.2 -
I have no idea what people mean when they say this. The average wage where I live is 42k a year before taxes. So maybe 36k after taxes. Assuming the bottom 20% is not making a “livable wage”, the maybe 25k a year is truly livable? However, when I talk with people about this, they come up with a much larger number, implying that 80% of the population is not making a livable wage. That can’t be true can it.
And if 50k was the agreed upon number and everyone starting making that much, wouldn’t inflation rise to the point where 50k is the new 25k?1 -
Well, $82K is the wage average where I live.
In the past two years since I'm not working and with Covid, I've lived on $15K per year. That is bare minimum, though. I haven't been driving, and I have spent very little money on anything not absolutely necessary. I do have insurance for my car, my health and my home. I have internet (but not cable TV.)
Livable. As long as nothing goes wrong.
Would I be able to do this indefinitely? No. I just have deferred home, car, and dental work that needs to be done - about $10,000 worth.8 -
About $48,000 average income before taxes here. I’m living on about $1400/mo when not trying to save. I am single, retired, not healthy enough to travel, go out a lot; healthy enough to not have medical expenses. For about 6 months during Covid lockdown, I lived on $700? But as cmriverside said, no doctor, dentist, gym, haircut, etc. during that 6 months. And I walked everywhere, no car, no deliveries. Not much of a life. No repeat, please. Also, my house is paid off and I didn’t pay taxes or insurance on my house and car during that 6 months. (Pay once a year).
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This question is very elastic, because prices vary depending on where you live. Certain parts of the country are expensive. Food prices also vary, schooling, transportation, and the age of family members. Young children have costs. I guess I don't know where this discussion is supposed to go. The variables are too high.8
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I’m just looking for an idea of what people mean when they say “livable wage”
What is your list of things that are needed…. Health insurance, child care, own a home, own a car for each adult, eat at a restaurant once a week, Walmart clothes, vacations…. What is the list of thing you need and I can do the math.
I have a family member that complains about this. She owns a 250k condo and spends more on food than anyone I know. I can’t ask her for risk of making things weird, so I’m trying to understand what she is complaining about…
I think cmriverside and corinasue’s examples and thoughts are in line with what I would call “livable”; I misspoke when I said “comfortable” before. Of course, I was homeless and selling plasma to live at age 19, so my view may be skewed…4 -
Ah, well some people will complain about anything.
I don't think we (any of us) can really judge what someone means - it's pretty individual. Some of us are super grateful to have a basic lifestyle and some of us aren't happy no matter how many blessings we have.
I prefer to look at what I have not what I don't have but there have been times in my life where I just could not see it that way; usually when the stresses of that day were overwhelming to me for whatever reason.
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Well said! Removing these constant complainers, what do the politicians mean when they say it, the one that are really trying to help people. Not the ones that are saying vague things to get people to vote for them?0
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uh, politics are off-limits on this site, no matter the context.2
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Oh, my bad. I’m new here…. Thanks!2
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'Livable' is highly subjective. everyone has different expenses, some are necessary, some are not. Some are fixed, some are fluid. All are based on where you live, some are based on age.
I have lived on under $20K a year. Much less.
Far EASIER to live on on the 6 figures we do now. Is it a necessary income? No. The median income here is $30K.
I could live on less. I have. We don't have a mortgage. We have a farm, so in theory at least, our food costs could be much lower than they are. We could eliminate some of our vehicles and only have one, if we needed to. That would cut costs on insurance, maintenance, etc. Plenty of other luxuries and conveniences we have that we could cut if needed.
our single LARGEST expense every month - electricity. Our house is older, decent sized, and not energy efficient at ALL. Needs new siding, insulation, windows, and roof. So, given THAT expense (the bill, not the repairs needed that we keep not doing LOL), I'd say after taxes, to live somewhat comfortably.... 2500/month- which comes to $30K - again, after taxes. doesnt take into account healthcare. but i would think at that income, youd probably qualify for assistance? not sure. i would hope so, but that doesnt make it true.2 -
I agree that it's subjective, and localized . . . maybe therefore unanswerable.
One needs food, clothing, shelter . . . but different people have very different preferences, maybe even different needs. Also, one would ideally want to be able to build up enough of a savings cushion that common problems aren't a huge disaster (car repairs, sudden but short job loss, that sort of thing) . . . though I understand that some people seem to have an issue with the saving thing even if it seems like they have enough income to do it if they made it a priority.
One of my friends is a minimalist, prefers to life in a generally resource-conserving way, but does have some theoretically expensive hobbies (like photography). He's also a genius at making, repairing, finding deals. He lives in an apartment nowadays, currently sharing with his adult daughter (convivial for both of them right now, during the pandemic, but won't last forever by mutual agreement). He's relatively under-employed (does some paid photography/videography, has massage therapy credentials but not using them during the pandemic, works part time in a delivery gig), but seems pretty happy.
At the other end of the scale, I know some folks like @Davidjohnson9333's sister, who have big houses, often big debts (small net worth, because of that), are very spendy and feel like they don't have enough.
Here in the US, even here (mid-Michigan) where housing prices are among the lowest in the country, full-time minimum wage isn't really a decent livable wage for most single adults, let alone adults with families. In my estimation, that's true even for people whose minimum wage job comes with adequate health insurance (not that common a scenario, sadly).
I'm not going to talk in detail about my personal financial situation, because I think that's dumb thing to do on the internet, no matter the details.
There's a certain point where one is not regularly in some kind of financial desperation, and that's "livable". The dollar value of that will vary a great, great deal. After some point, having extra money - for most of us - might be fun, but it doesn't add a huge increment to practical happiness. 🤷♀️
Some people aren't in a livable financial situation because of bad luck, truly difficult start in life, or other quite uncontrollable factors. Others aren't in livable situations in a practical sense because they aren't all that great at handling money, or they're trying to fill up an emotional need with things, in a way that just can't be satisfied.
In a way, it's like becoming obese, there are tradeoffs between current indulgence and future benefits. I couldn't do the food version well, but did OK with the financial one, I think. It's weird.9 -
I have “lived” on less than $200 a month.
Of course I was homeless at that time.
My answer to this question is
Whatever amount allows me to pay for a basic roof, clothing and necessities like TP and tampons/soap/cleaning supplies, etc, medical care (including meds, tests, dental, and eyes) transportation, and food, plus enough for some nice things. Anything over that is gravy.
Bread and roses!5 -
My community passed a living wage ordinance 22 years ago. Anyone who does contract work for the City must pay all workers a living wage. The actual amount is revised each year based on the Consumer Price Index. As of July 1, 2021 it's $13.81 per hour. That's less than $30,000 per year for full time work, and it's a little more than a dollar over our state's minimum wage. Sort of. My state has three minimum wages ($12/hr for rural communities, $12.75 most other places, and $14 the metro area).
The lowest salary for represented employees in the City I live are actually below the living wage ($13.10 per hour or about $27,260 per year). The three lowest rates of pay for casual employees for the city are below the living wage ($12.75, $13.07, and $13.50 per hour). Is it ironic that the entity that requires its contractors to pay their employees a living wage don't pay all of their employees that wage? Well, that's not completely honest; the represented employees get benefits, and contractors can count benefits like health insurance towards the living wage. Casual workers don't get benefits and can be paid a lower wage than what's deemed a living wage and less than the city requires contractors to pay ALL employees. Yeah. Weird. It's also interesting that the wages of management increases at a faster rate than for the people who do the work. I have a problem with that. It's probably not uncommon.
The recent census says that per-capita income in my state is a little less than $34,000 which would be about $16.25 per hour for full time work with no overtime.
I remember reading years ago about a study into whether money actually CAN buy happiness. The result was that additional income does make people happier up to about $75,000 in the USA. Since it was several years ago, I bet that number has increased.
So... where I live, apparently, a living wage is a little under $30K per year.
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Davidjohnson9333 wrote: »I have no idea what people mean when they say this. The average wage where I live is 42k a year before taxes. So maybe 36k after taxes. Assuming the bottom 20% is not making a “livable wage”, the maybe 25k a year is truly livable? However, when I talk with people about this, they come up with a much larger number, implying that 80% of the population is not making a livable wage. That can’t be true can it.
And if 50k was the agreed upon number and everyone starting making that much, wouldn’t inflation rise to the point where 50k is the new 25k?
While I don't think it gets you to 80%, if you're in the U.S., a big chunk of the lower-tier, poorly paid workers (and their employers) are subsidized -- their employers don't pay them a living wage, so the government makes up the difference in subsidized health care (e.g., Medicaid, subsidized Affordable Care Act insurance), food subsidies (SNAP, WIC, free and discounted school breakfasts and lunches for the workers' children), tax credits (EIC, child tax credits), etc. ETA: I forgot heating fuel subsidies -- I forget the name of that program. And of course free public education through grade 12. There are probably other things I'm forgetting. Public transit is generally subsidized in most places in the U.S., and tends on average to be used more by lower-income workers, especially bus systems.
Also, people's definitions of what "live comfortably" means is going to differ. Most people are probably going to feel like they couldn't live "comfortably" on much less than what they earn now, because they've adapted to that income.4 -
Well, if you took away all the luxuries such as travel, eating out, etc. I could live on 20K a year. Maybe . I have 2 dogs that can cost me 1K in a month of vet visits(side note: need to speak up more and just say no to my vet who wants to sell me this, that and everything else
). House and car is paid for, TG. 2 -
In California, 75K, but 100k is much better. It is expensive here.
For example, I live in an average sized house in my neighborhood and my house payment and property taxes are $2700 a month, gas is $5 a gallon, I take quick showers and my water bill is $220 a month despite having no pool, and if I didn’t have solar my electric bill would be $500 a month like some of my neighbors.
I’m not living a luxury life either. My house is still mostly unfurnished, I drive a 12 year old car, and dont eat at fancy places. I don’t shop much either.
It is insane the cost of living here. Most people can’t afford their own place. A lot of adults live with their parents forever. Sometimes two families live in a single family home. When I was in college and after, 4 of us girls rented a tiny two bedroom apartment. I couldn’t afford my own apartment until after I became a physician assistant at age 28. I don’t live in Los Angeles either. I live an hour outside which is more *affordable*. If I lived in LA, I could not afford a home on my 6 figure wages. Nope. If I did happen to find one, it would be a 100 year old shack that’s falling apart.
Why do I stay? Family and weather. I could not tolerate a place that snowed or froze or a place with high humidity.
A huge factor in why things are so unaffordable is the high taxes. Our government sucks.3 -
Varies widely by local cost of living, your needs for transportation, if you have a job with healthcare, the number of people you are supporting and lots of other factors. I am in touch with people who live mostly off the grid who, if they had to, could live on no income. I read an article on a site directed at millenials that showed how one could live, decently, in Chicago for $12,000 a year before taxes. Of course, that would not allow for any luxuries.
MIT has a living wage calculator you can look up online. Estimates range from a single person in Kentucky at $28,000 a year before taxes to $130,000 in Washington DC for a family of two adults and three kids.
My family has had some big financial setbacks over the years. We've learned that most people can get by on a lot less than they think. People come to think of a lot of things as necessities that are really luxuries. BTW, I have been all around the world in the Navy and seen how badly a lot of people live in the world. No matter what is going on in the US economy, we have it pretty darn good here.10 -
So subjective because people have different ideas of "livable". Do you HAVE to have a home? Do you need a TV?
I know someone who lives off $15,000 a year cause they live in a one bedroom rent and only eats ramen and vegetables regularly. No luxuries and works out daily.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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In California, 75K, but 100k is much better. It is expensive here.
For example, I live in an average sized house in my neighborhood and my house payment and property taxes are $2700 a month, gas is $5 a gallon, I take quick showers and my water bill is $220 a month despite having no pool, and if I didn’t have solar my electric bill would be $500 a month like some of my neighbors.
I’m not living a luxury life either. My house is still mostly unfurnished, I drive a 12 year old car, and dont eat at fancy places. I don’t shop much either.
It is insane the cost of living here. Most people can’t afford their own place. A lot of adults live with their parents forever. Sometimes two families live in a single family home. When I was in college and after, 4 of us girls rented a tiny two bedroom apartment. I couldn’t afford my own apartment until after I became a physician assistant at age 28. I don’t live in Los Angeles either. I live an hour outside which is more *affordable*. If I lived in LA, I could not afford a home on my 6 figure wages. Nope. If I did happen to find one, it would be a 100 year old shack that’s falling apart.
Why do I stay? Family and weather. I could not tolerate a place that snowed or froze or a place with high humidity.
A huge factor in why things are so unaffordable is the high taxes. Our government sucks.
The total tax burden ($ per capita or as a % of income) is generally high in CA, we are around #8 to #10 nationally, but I wouldn't call it out as the primary cause of the high costs of living. The biggest pain point is the housing costs. In my area, a two bedroom apartment is $2500 and up and the median housing cost is now over $750k.
The DC metro area was even worse for housing costs and you didn't even get the benefit of the great year round weather.
Source: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494
https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-local-tax-burden-rankings/#Burdens
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May I join in? As an Australian, I am currently on a comfortable, livable wage of approximately $58000 taxable AUD per year plus about $13000 of Family Tax Benefit per year (non-taxable). When I was unemployed, I was receiving $13-18000 of Government benefits per year. Our income taxes (30% for me, applicable on taxable amounts over $18000 per year) pay for our public health care; primary and secondary education and can either fully fund or partially fund university degrees or tertiary (trade) qualifications depending on yearly income. I think the current exchange rate is about $0.75 cents US to $1 Australian?
I have enough income to cover my monthly expenses now that I am employed (I earn taxable $25 per hour full time, now) and my employer contributes compulsory 12% of my pre-tax wage to my superannuation account (your 401K?). If I want to see a dentist sooner than the public one can fit me in (long wait list) I can either go to the university dentistry school for free (FTB benefit) or pay a private dentist. I can see any doctor who bulk-bills to our Medicare scheme for free (paid for by taxes). My prescriptions cost $7 as they are covered by the pharmaceutical benefits scheme. If I have an emergency I just go to the nearest emergency department/hospital and will be treated for no cost.
My car registration and mandatory 3rd party insurance is less than $1000 per year, my additional insurance (covers at fault/basically everything) is $1000 per year but will go up when my learner driver gets his provisional license. My contents insurance is about $1250 per year (flood/cyclone area) for $50000 worth of contents.
My electricity costs me approximately $140 per fortnight (renting, no solar) and that is because we are two power hungry people. Rent for a smallish but quite comfortable 2 bedroom ground floor unit with two courtyards and private laundry/carport is $210 per week.
Finally, my 17 year old son works at a fast food place and makes $15 per hour plus Saturday/Sunday penalty rates which push his wage up to $25-30 per hour.
If I didn't spend as much as I earned it wouldn't take me long to build a nice nest egg to buy my own property. I'm currently paying down debts so I can put the current debt payments in to savings for a house of my own.7 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »In California, 75K, but 100k is much better. It is expensive here.
For example, I live in an average sized house in my neighborhood and my house payment and property taxes are $2700 a month, gas is $5 a gallon, I take quick showers and my water bill is $220 a month despite having no pool, and if I didn’t have solar my electric bill would be $500 a month like some of my neighbors.
I’m not living a luxury life either. My house is still mostly unfurnished, I drive a 12 year old car, and dont eat at fancy places. I don’t shop much either.
It is insane the cost of living here. Most people can’t afford their own place. A lot of adults live with their parents forever. Sometimes two families live in a single family home. When I was in college and after, 4 of us girls rented a tiny two bedroom apartment. I couldn’t afford my own apartment until after I became a physician assistant at age 28. I don’t live in Los Angeles either. I live an hour outside which is more *affordable*. If I lived in LA, I could not afford a home on my 6 figure wages. Nope. If I did happen to find one, it would be a 100 year old shack that’s falling apart.
Why do I stay? Family and weather. I could not tolerate a place that snowed or froze or a place with high humidity.
A huge factor in why things are so unaffordable is the high taxes. Our government sucks.
The total tax burden ($ per capita or as a % of income) is generally high in CA, we are around #8 to #10 nationally, but I wouldn't call it out as the primary cause of the high costs of living. The biggest pain point is the housing costs. In my area, a two bedroom apartment is $2500 and up and the median housing cost is now over $750k.
The DC metro area was even worse for housing costs and you didn't even get the benefit of the great year round weather.
Source: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494
https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-local-tax-burden-rankings/#Burdens
Yes, housing costs are an issue but so are taxes. My friends in Florida and Texas take home an extra 10% per year. Our state taxes are very high not to mention the high taxes on gas and other things. Everything is more expensive including food.
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So subjective because people have different ideas of "livable". Do you HAVE to have a home? Do you need a TV?
I know someone who lives off $15,000 a year cause they live in a one bedroom rent and only eats ramen and vegetables regularly. No luxuries and works out daily.
This is too complicated
I can get a 40" TV for under $200 or spend $3,000 on a 77" TV. Both give me equal access to entertainment and news.
Do I pack my lunch or eat out frequently?
Is my car 10k used or a $35k new purchase? Both can be reliable transport.
Do I go to 24hr Fitness, or use a deluxe gym with a personal trainer. Both can keep you fit.
Do I car camp or fly to Cabo for my 2 wk vacation? Both work as a break/vacation.
For the same basic standard of living, our expectations/habits greatly impact how much $$ is required to get there.2 -
Liveable or comfortable?
Where I live, 1500/month net, canadian dollars, would be more than enough to live for a single person: you can find a decent apartment at ~700 rent, public transport is ~100 a month and good enough not to need a car, healthcare is free and that leaves 700 for bills, food and miscellaneous expenses. You could probably trim that down to 1200 and still survive.
As for living comfortably, that's much more subjective.2 -
"Liveable" as defined by most of us with internet access, is absolutely spoiled to much of the world. So take your cost of living adjusted standard, and reduce it in every way, shape and form to basic food, clothing and shelter. Even in a high cost of living area for many people it would be a LOT less than people think.
I think even in developed countries the standards of wants vs needs has changed quite a bit over the years. We are spoiled to the point we forget that we don't NEED cell phones, or a lot of other things, we just WANT them. But you can hear people complain about bills when they drop a few weeks pay on a cell phone without a second thought.
As for us, it would be a fairly low number. We both have essentially free health insurance due to military service, and have had no mortgage for quite a while. If I took out all the wants, we could probably live on less than $1,000 a month, keeping all the creature comforts we have now.2 -
I remember seeing photos of all the possessions in a person's home placed outside. In some countries that'd be merely cooking utensils, few clothes. In the U.S. that'd be incredibly different.
Just something to think about. Our wants vs. our basic needs.2 -
robertw486 wrote: »"Liveable" as defined by most of us with internet access, is absolutely spoiled to much of the world. So take your cost of living adjusted standard, and reduce it in every way, shape and form to basic food, clothing and shelter. Even in a high cost of living area for many people it would be a LOT less than people think.
I think even in developed countries the standards of wants vs needs has changed quite a bit over the years. We are spoiled to the point we forget that we don't NEED cell phones, or a lot of other things, we just WANT them. But you can hear people complain about bills when they drop a few weeks pay on a cell phone without a second thought.
As for us, it would be a fairly low number. We both have essentially free health insurance due to military service, and have had no mortgage for quite a while. If I took out all the wants, we could probably live on less than $1,000 a month, keeping all the creature comforts we have now.
I think cell phones and internet access are moving from luxury items to near necessity. In most situations, you need internet access to apply for a job, or apply for unemployment or government assistance, for instance. It has become difficult (not impossible) to do things like banking and paying bills without internet access.
And, in order to access the internet, you need a device of some sort, such as a cell phone, tablet, or computer.
Yes, there are libraries that have free computers and internet, but you have to be available during library hours to use them. You can't keep going back to the library to check your e-mail to see if you have been offered a job. If you are caring for children or elderly family members, it is even harder.
Everyone could figure out a way to get by without a cell phone or internet, but our current society (in the "first world" anyway), has shifted toward assuming you have these things and making it very difficult for people who don't/can't.8 -
So, yeah, "livable wage" has a cultural context.
If someone living a nomadic life in a yurt in Mongolia can get along fine with a few pots, a lot of blankets, and no cash income, that's great. It has no bearing on what's livable for a family in the densely-populated parts of LA or NYC in the USA.
If someone like me - who grew up in the country, knows how to garden-preserve food-sew and more can get along on $X a month (especially if things like "paid off mortgage" are in the picture), it has no bearing on someone who doesn't (yet) have those skills, or access to the resources (land, canning jars, whatever) necessary to utilize them.
When I was growing up, where I was growing up, there weren't even solid building or habitability codes in a lot of places. Now, you're not even allowed to put a nicely-kept apartment-sized 2-bedroom mobile home in that same area. (My parents lived in a 16' travel trailer for the better part of a year, with me as a baby, while building their house . . . which my dad, his brother, and an occasional army of cousins coming in for pouring cement or raising walls, in return for a potluck meal and promises of reciprocation when needed. You can't do that trailer thing anymore.)
We, in the relatively well-off developed world are very fortunate in global and historical terms, yup. If we're defining "livable" in global terms for philosophical chit-chat reasons, that's one thing. If we're talking practical or public-policy reasons for discussing it, it has to be defined in terms of the relevant social context. I still think that in the US that means things like whether minimum wage will get you a basic apartment it's legal to live in, adequate health insurance, basic nutrition, and the necessities to participate in civic life and the school system . . . which does, these day, usually imply things like phones and internet access.6
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