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What amount of money is a “livable wage”?
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cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Ask an average family in Haiti, then decide if you really need more.
livable is different than mere survival, and the US is one of the wealthiest countries in the world GDP per capita. The USA is not a third world country so there really isn't a comparison to be made between a family in Haiti and a family living in the US. A livable wage in Haiti would be completely different than livable wage in the US.
Depends on how you live.
So you think people should just be impoverished to the point of mere survival in a first world country because people in other countries are impoverished? Gotcha...don't forget to tip your waiter making $2.13/hr.
Again, a survival wage is different than a livable wage. Average rent here is $1,117 for a small apartment. Go much lower than that and you're looking in the ghetto and bound to get killed.
I don't understand the offense taken. When you talk about livable, you are talking about just that, living. That does not include internet, or lipstick, or cable tv, or beef tenderloin or even an automobile or a television set. I never said people should be impoverished. I believe people should use every opportunity to do the very best that they can for themselves, and if they get rich, based on their efforts, then good for them. And neither did I say that the livable wage in Haiti would be the livable wage in the US. I just can't get over the number of people who think that if they can't afford their smartphone and internet, they can't live.1 -
And by the way, I am a very good tipper.0
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bellababy9031 wrote: »
We can only do so much. I vote in every major and local election. My vote hasn’t changed anything thus far. I have also signed petitions and written letters.4 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »
We can only do so much. I vote in every major and local election. My vote hasn’t changed anything thus far. I have also signed petitions and written letters.
Yeah, I feel the same way. But we (as a society) keep electing people who just keep running us into the ground. The Tree of Liberty is in need of refreshment, and at some point in the near future, it is going to happen.0 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Ask an average family in Haiti, then decide if you really need more.
livable is different than mere survival, and the US is one of the wealthiest countries in the world GDP per capita. The USA is not a third world country so there really isn't a comparison to be made between a family in Haiti and a family living in the US. A livable wage in Haiti would be completely different than livable wage in the US.
Depends on how you live.
So you think people should just be impoverished to the point of mere survival in a first world country because people in other countries are impoverished? Gotcha...don't forget to tip your waiter making $2.13/hr.
Again, a survival wage is different than a livable wage. Average rent here is $1,117 for a small apartment. Go much lower than that and you're looking in the ghetto and bound to get killed.
I don't understand the offense taken. When you talk about livable, you are talking about just that, living. That does not include internet, or lipstick, or cable tv, or beef tenderloin or even an automobile or a television set. I never said people should be impoverished. I believe people should use every opportunity to do the very best that they can for themselves, and if they get rich, based on their efforts, then good for them. And neither did I say that the livable wage in Haiti would be the livable wage in the US. I just can't get over the number of people who think that if they can't afford their smartphone and internet, they can't live.
Families with children in school during the pandemic, not in-person but virtual school, were pretty much SOL if they didn't have phone or internet. The fallbacks for computer use, libraries, were closed.
That's not my definition of livable.6 -
Those families without internet lived. They may not have thrived, but they lived. I am not trying to be argumentative, really I am not. I just wish people would step back and realize that MOST of the stuff we think we need to live, we really do not. People are so conditioned to think that they NEED so much...they feel that they are entitled to certain things because they were born. They are not. You are entitled to what you decide to go out and work for and make happen for yourself.
Sometimes people need help, and that is fine. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical care. I got that. But people don't need free government phones, internet, television, prime rib, alcohol or cigarettes. Those things, people need to earn and pay for on their own, by their own hard work.
Happiness on earth ain't just for high achievers. There are plenty of people who have very little and yet are living productive, happy lives.2 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »Those families without internet lived. They may not have thrived, but they lived. I am not trying to be argumentative, really I am not. I just wish people would step back and realize that MOST of the stuff we think we need to live, we really do not. People are so conditioned to think that they NEED so much...they feel that they are entitled to certain things because they were born. They are not. You are entitled to what you decide to go out and work for and make happen for yourself.
Sometimes people need help, and that is fine. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical care. I got that. But people don't need free government phones, internet, television, prime rib, alcohol or cigarettes. Those things, people need to earn and pay for on their own, by their own hard work.
Happiness on earth ain't just for high achievers. There are plenty of people who have very little and yet are living productive, happy lives.
Basic ability to attend public school is not a luxury good, in the developed world. It's a need.
Also, the topic here was livable *wage*. A wage is a thing people earn, not government assistance.
ETA: If a home computer, internet, or phone are required in order to keep one's job, those are also needs, not luxuries.8 -
Along the current discussion -
I'm wondering...those of you who are working from home now: can you deduct your Home Office Expenses even though technically you're not self-employed? Who will pay for your internet, your phone line and your computers? Not to mention your added electricity. I guess there is a bit of a break for workers who now don't need transportation. Are all those expenses previously incurred by businesses now the burden of the worker?1 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »Those families without internet lived. They may not have thrived, but they lived. I am not trying to be argumentative, really I am not. I just wish people would step back and realize that MOST of the stuff we think we need to live, we really do not. People are so conditioned to think that they NEED so much...they feel that they are entitled to certain things because they were born. They are not. You are entitled to what you decide to go out and work for and make happen for yourself.
Sometimes people need help, and that is fine. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical care. I got that. But people don't need free government phones, internet, television, prime rib, alcohol or cigarettes. Those things, people need to earn and pay for on their own, by their own hard work.
Happiness on earth ain't just for high achievers. There are plenty of people who have very little and yet are living productive, happy lives.
Dude...we're talking about people making a livable wage and not having to decide whether to pay their rent or pay their utilities or pay for food or pay for rent or pay for clothes for their children or pay for food. We're not talking about people wanting prime rib and *kitten*. We're not talking about government assistance either...we're talking about an earned wage to live. Literally the federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr and hasn't changed in 12 years. You really think $7.25/hr is a livable wage for a family in the US? A single person can barley survive on that in the US.
And the whole comparison to families in Haiti is ludicrous. They live in squallier...that's not livable, that's mere survival.7 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Ask an average family in Haiti, then decide if you really need more.
livable is different than mere survival, and the US is one of the wealthiest countries in the world GDP per capita. The USA is not a third world country so there really isn't a comparison to be made between a family in Haiti and a family living in the US. A livable wage in Haiti would be completely different than livable wage in the US.
Depends on how you live.
So you think people should just be impoverished to the point of mere survival in a first world country because people in other countries are impoverished? Gotcha...don't forget to tip your waiter making $2.13/hr.
Again, a survival wage is different than a livable wage. Average rent here is $1,117 for a small apartment. Go much lower than that and you're looking in the ghetto and bound to get killed.
I don't understand the offense taken. When you talk about livable, you are talking about just that, living. That does not include internet, or lipstick, or cable tv, or beef tenderloin or even an automobile or a television set. I never said people should be impoverished. I believe people should use every opportunity to do the very best that they can for themselves, and if they get rich, based on their efforts, then good for them. And neither did I say that the livable wage in Haiti would be the livable wage in the US. I just can't get over the number of people who think that if they can't afford their smartphone and internet, they can't live.
Families with children in school during the pandemic, not in-person but virtual school, were pretty much SOL if they didn't have phone or internet. The fallbacks for computer use, libraries, were closed.
That's not my definition of livable.
My city provided free internet and iPads to school kids who didn't have them during covid. I expect this was done in other cities too.0 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »Those families without internet lived. They may not have thrived, but they lived. I am not trying to be argumentative, really I am not. I just wish people would step back and realize that MOST of the stuff we think we need to live, we really do not. People are so conditioned to think that they NEED so much...they feel that they are entitled to certain things because they were born. They are not. You are entitled to what you decide to go out and work for and make happen for yourself.
Sometimes people need help, and that is fine. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical care. I got that. But people don't need free government phones, internet, television, prime rib, alcohol or cigarettes. Those things, people need to earn and pay for on their own, by their own hard work.
Happiness on earth ain't just for high achievers. There are plenty of people who have very little and yet are living productive, happy lives.
People need a roof over their heads. Housing costs are the biggest issue in many places.1 -
cmriverside wrote: »Along the current discussion -
I'm wondering...those of you who are working from home now: can you deduct your Home Office Expenses even though technically you're not self-employed? Who will pay for your internet, your phone line and your computers? Not to mention your added electricity. I guess there is a bit of a break for workers who now don't need transportation. Are all those expenses previously incurred by businesses now the burden of the worker?
My employer paid for computers/printers for those who didn't have them (most did) or needed an upgrade. I think they just assumed everyone had internet/phones, which was true. They also still pay for parking if we drive in vs taking the L or other public transit.
I mostly work from the office at this point, however. I disliked working from home.1 -
cmriverside wrote: »Along the current discussion -
I'm wondering...those of you who are working from home now: can you deduct your Home Office Expenses even though technically you're not self-employed? Who will pay for your internet, your phone line and your computers? Not to mention your added electricity. I guess there is a bit of a break for workers who now don't need transportation. Are all those expenses previously incurred by businesses now the burden of the worker?
I was already paying for my internet so there was no additional cost there. IT installed an app on our cell phones that we could turn on and linked us to our office phones if we wanted, but most who need it already have company issued cell phones and I generally get more calls on my company cell phone than my office land line. I have a work issued laptop and work also paid for a monitor, scanner, printer, docking station and everything else I needed for my WFH office. If I needed paper or any other supplies, I just went to the office real quick to grab them. My electricity expenses actually went down because while I was at home I put in LED bulbs everywhere since my wife and kids were also pretty much at home full time. My kids were issued Chrome Books and tablets by the school for online learning.
We are back in the office now but they do let us work from home on occasions that we need to like when a kid is sick or like yesterday I took my car in for service and they didn't have a loaner so it was easier for my wife to just drop me off back at the house to work rather than having to take me to the office and then pick me up from the office later.2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Those families without internet lived. They may not have thrived, but they lived. I am not trying to be argumentative, really I am not. I just wish people would step back and realize that MOST of the stuff we think we need to live, we really do not. People are so conditioned to think that they NEED so much...they feel that they are entitled to certain things because they were born. They are not. You are entitled to what you decide to go out and work for and make happen for yourself.
Sometimes people need help, and that is fine. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical care. I got that. But people don't need free government phones, internet, television, prime rib, alcohol or cigarettes. Those things, people need to earn and pay for on their own, by their own hard work.
Happiness on earth ain't just for high achievers. There are plenty of people who have very little and yet are living productive, happy lives.
Dude...we're talking about people making a livable wage and not having to decide whether to pay their rent or pay their utilities or pay for food or pay for rent or pay for clothes for their children or pay for food. We're not talking about people wanting prime rib and *kitten*. We're not talking about government assistance either...we're talking about an earned wage to live. Literally the federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr and hasn't changed in 12 years. You really think $7.25/hr is a livable wage for a family in the US? A single person can barley survive on that in the US.
And the whole comparison to families in Haiti is ludicrous. They live in squallier...that's not livable, that's mere survival.
Not sure if 7.25 is livable or not, but I can say this. I took business and economics in school, and I KNOW that if you raise the minimum wage, the price of goods and services automatically goes up, so where are you then? In exactly the same place. You can't just print money and expect prices to stay the same.
So many businesses around here raised their minimum starting pay, then prices went through the roof. Then they laid off workers and put in automatic checkouts. Grocery stores for example...used to be 8-10 registers open with cashiers making minimum wage. Now they make 12.50 an hour, but there are only 1 or two, and 8-12 self checkouts. So, those 1-2 cashiers make more, but what about the 8 that got laid off because the store could not afford to hire them?
I don't know what the answer is, but just raising minimum wage is not it. It has never worked in any society, and its not going to work today.1 -
cmriverside wrote: »Along the current discussion -
I'm wondering...those of you who are working from home now: can you deduct your Home Office Expenses even though technically you're not self-employed? Who will pay for your internet, your phone line and your computers? Not to mention your added electricity. I guess there is a bit of a break for workers who now don't need transportation. Are all those expenses previously incurred by businesses now the burden of the worker?
Unfortunately, no. Tax laws are such that you can only make these deductions if you are self-employed.
So, the answer to your last question is yes, the burden is on the workers to make WFH work.
Some companies are helping out their employees with equipment and such, but they don't HAVE to.1 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Those families without internet lived. They may not have thrived, but they lived. I am not trying to be argumentative, really I am not. I just wish people would step back and realize that MOST of the stuff we think we need to live, we really do not. People are so conditioned to think that they NEED so much...they feel that they are entitled to certain things because they were born. They are not. You are entitled to what you decide to go out and work for and make happen for yourself.
Sometimes people need help, and that is fine. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical care. I got that. But people don't need free government phones, internet, television, prime rib, alcohol or cigarettes. Those things, people need to earn and pay for on their own, by their own hard work.
Happiness on earth ain't just for high achievers. There are plenty of people who have very little and yet are living productive, happy lives.
Dude...we're talking about people making a livable wage and not having to decide whether to pay their rent or pay their utilities or pay for food or pay for rent or pay for clothes for their children or pay for food. We're not talking about people wanting prime rib and *kitten*. We're not talking about government assistance either...we're talking about an earned wage to live. Literally the federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr and hasn't changed in 12 years. You really think $7.25/hr is a livable wage for a family in the US? A single person can barley survive on that in the US.
And the whole comparison to families in Haiti is ludicrous. They live in squallier...that's not livable, that's mere survival.
Not sure if 7.25 is livable or not, but I can say this. I took business and economics in school, and I KNOW that if you raise the minimum wage, the price of goods and services automatically goes up, so where are you then? In exactly the same place. You can't just print money and expect prices to stay the same.
So many businesses around here raised their minimum starting pay, then prices went through the roof. Then they laid off workers and put in automatic checkouts. Grocery stores for example...used to be 8-10 registers open with cashiers making minimum wage. Now they make 12.50 an hour, but there are only 1 or two, and 8-12 self checkouts. So, those 1-2 cashiers make more, but what about the 8 that got laid off because the store could not afford to hire them?
I don't know what the answer is, but just raising minimum wage is not it. It has never worked in any society, and its not going to work today.
Weird, because it's worked ever since the minimum wage was instituted. I'm sure Bezos could pay better and not raise prices on goods and still be a billionaire a billion times over.
We've had local businesses here raise their wages and there hasn't been any price increase. It's actually benefited them because they're actually able to attract workers and retain them. Cycling through employees is far more costly than paying a good wage and retaining employees; I'm surprised they didn't teach you that in your classes. I'm a business finance major and have worked in accounting and finance for 17 years and increasing wages doesn't automatically increase prices.9 -
cmriverside wrote: »Along the current discussion -
I'm wondering...those of you who are working from home now: can you deduct your Home Office Expenses even though technically you're not self-employed? Who will pay for your internet, your phone line and your computers? Not to mention your added electricity. I guess there is a bit of a break for workers who now don't need transportation. Are all those expenses previously incurred by businesses now the burden of the worker?
In my case, I use my own laptop to connect to a desktop machine in the office... the company will provide a laptop to workers who do not have one. The company also allows you to expense up to $50 each for internet access and phone (per month). Any other expenses are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
Note - I use my own laptop because the company laptop would be monitored for usage outside of work hours and I don't need the company monitoring my private life (at least not to that extent).1 -
cmriverside wrote: »Along the current discussion -
I'm wondering...those of you who are working from home now: can you deduct your Home Office Expenses even though technically you're not self-employed? Who will pay for your internet, your phone line and your computers? Not to mention your added electricity. I guess there is a bit of a break for workers who now don't need transportation. Are all those expenses previously incurred by businesses now the burden of the worker?
We can deduct them as employment expenses regardless of whether we are self employed or not. So I add up all my utilities, internet and such and divide it by the portion of my house I am using as an office, and the number of days I worked from home, and that is the amount I can claim. Any purchases for the office can also be claimed - printers, computers etc if you buy them yourself. Although most people I know who switched to home had that stuff supplied by their employer.
Last year CRA also implemented a "quick method" so instead of adding everything up you could just use a certain $ amount per day for every day you worked at home - for me it was worth more to use the long method so I did that. My deduction was about $2000 last year (so I saved the tax on $2000 not the whole amount).
But I have always deducted a portion of my car and cell phone even before working from home because I use them for work. Can you not do that in the US? You have to get a form from you employer - although they waived that last year if you used the "quick method" during the pandemic.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Those families without internet lived. They may not have thrived, but they lived. I am not trying to be argumentative, really I am not. I just wish people would step back and realize that MOST of the stuff we think we need to live, we really do not. People are so conditioned to think that they NEED so much...they feel that they are entitled to certain things because they were born. They are not. You are entitled to what you decide to go out and work for and make happen for yourself.
Sometimes people need help, and that is fine. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical care. I got that. But people don't need free government phones, internet, television, prime rib, alcohol or cigarettes. Those things, people need to earn and pay for on their own, by their own hard work.
Happiness on earth ain't just for high achievers. There are plenty of people who have very little and yet are living productive, happy lives.
Dude...we're talking about people making a livable wage and not having to decide whether to pay their rent or pay their utilities or pay for food or pay for rent or pay for clothes for their children or pay for food. We're not talking about people wanting prime rib and *kitten*. We're not talking about government assistance either...we're talking about an earned wage to live. Literally the federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr and hasn't changed in 12 years. You really think $7.25/hr is a livable wage for a family in the US? A single person can barley survive on that in the US.
And the whole comparison to families in Haiti is ludicrous. They live in squallier...that's not livable, that's mere survival.
Not sure if 7.25 is livable or not, but I can say this. I took business and economics in school, and I KNOW that if you raise the minimum wage, the price of goods and services automatically goes up, so where are you then? In exactly the same place. You can't just print money and expect prices to stay the same.
So many businesses around here raised their minimum starting pay, then prices went through the roof. Then they laid off workers and put in automatic checkouts. Grocery stores for example...used to be 8-10 registers open with cashiers making minimum wage. Now they make 12.50 an hour, but there are only 1 or two, and 8-12 self checkouts. So, those 1-2 cashiers make more, but what about the 8 that got laid off because the store could not afford to hire them?
I don't know what the answer is, but just raising minimum wage is not it. It has never worked in any society, and its not going to work today.
Weird, because it's worked ever since the minimum wage was instituted. I'm sure Bezos could pay better and not raise prices on goods and still be a billionaire a billion times over.
We've had local businesses here raise their wages and there hasn't been any price increase. It's actually benefited them because they're actually able to attract workers and retain them. Cycling through employees is far more costly than paying a good wage and retaining employees; I'm surprised they didn't teach you that in your classes. I'm a business finance major and have worked in accounting and finance for 17 years and increasing wages doesn't automatically increase prices.
So where does the extra money come from?
Sure, Bezos could do it, but what about Doc down the street at the Quick Stop? What about most small business owners who are still just barely living (as we define living here). If I have a good employee, and I want to raise his wages $2.00 an hour, or 80.00 a week, I have to raise prices enough to cover that 80.00 to make ends meet. If I have 10 employees, that is 800 a week. It does not fall out of the sky.
That is why every single thing I buy costs significantly more now than it did two years ago, and why I do not buy a lot of the things I used to buy. That loss of my business, times however other people are in the same boat, then cause the retailers to again raise prices to cover the increased wages, and then I will adjust my spending again.1 -
bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »bellababy9031 wrote: »Those families without internet lived. They may not have thrived, but they lived. I am not trying to be argumentative, really I am not. I just wish people would step back and realize that MOST of the stuff we think we need to live, we really do not. People are so conditioned to think that they NEED so much...they feel that they are entitled to certain things because they were born. They are not. You are entitled to what you decide to go out and work for and make happen for yourself.
Sometimes people need help, and that is fine. Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medical care. I got that. But people don't need free government phones, internet, television, prime rib, alcohol or cigarettes. Those things, people need to earn and pay for on their own, by their own hard work.
Happiness on earth ain't just for high achievers. There are plenty of people who have very little and yet are living productive, happy lives.
Dude...we're talking about people making a livable wage and not having to decide whether to pay their rent or pay their utilities or pay for food or pay for rent or pay for clothes for their children or pay for food. We're not talking about people wanting prime rib and *kitten*. We're not talking about government assistance either...we're talking about an earned wage to live. Literally the federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr and hasn't changed in 12 years. You really think $7.25/hr is a livable wage for a family in the US? A single person can barley survive on that in the US.
And the whole comparison to families in Haiti is ludicrous. They live in squallier...that's not livable, that's mere survival.
Not sure if 7.25 is livable or not, but I can say this. I took business and economics in school, and I KNOW that if you raise the minimum wage, the price of goods and services automatically goes up, so where are you then? In exactly the same place. You can't just print money and expect prices to stay the same.
So many businesses around here raised their minimum starting pay, then prices went through the roof. Then they laid off workers and put in automatic checkouts. Grocery stores for example...used to be 8-10 registers open with cashiers making minimum wage. Now they make 12.50 an hour, but there are only 1 or two, and 8-12 self checkouts. So, those 1-2 cashiers make more, but what about the 8 that got laid off because the store could not afford to hire them?
I don't know what the answer is, but just raising minimum wage is not it. It has never worked in any society, and its not going to work today.
Weird, because it's worked ever since the minimum wage was instituted. I'm sure Bezos could pay better and not raise prices on goods and still be a billionaire a billion times over.
We've had local businesses here raise their wages and there hasn't been any price increase. It's actually benefited them because they're actually able to attract workers and retain them. Cycling through employees is far more costly than paying a good wage and retaining employees; I'm surprised they didn't teach you that in your classes. I'm a business finance major and have worked in accounting and finance for 17 years and increasing wages doesn't automatically increase prices.
So where does the extra money come from?
It comes from the top instead of the bottom
. Less profits.
Although as cwolfman13 mentioned there is often saving found in other areas like - like training costs for high turnover and increased productivity for workers who are better compensated.4
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