Fun with time-restricted feeding (TRF)

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Replies

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,647 Member
    edited November 2023
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    It's been not quite a week, so perhaps I can say that I'm still at it.

    I've been reading through this article. If half of this is true, I'm going to live forever!

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8754590/

    I particularly like this quote:

    "Fasting can stimulate neurogenesis and enhance synaptic plasticity, which can regulate pain sensations and enhance cognitive function and the antiaging ability of the brain. These beneficial effects may be associated with changes in neurotrophic factors and neurotransmitters."

    Woah, sign me up!

    Yeah, exercise has the same ability. It just means you did something that will enable you to remember better as you get older. :D
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,657 Member
    ...and I would add..."remember better," than - what - exactly? How do you prove that? I don't know, maybe the pain part is objective. "Antiaging" though? Hm. How would it be proven that any given person wasn't going to age in a particular way and at a certain rate had he/she not fasted? Is it fasting for years, or a week? How is that studied.

    Sorry, JThan, maybe you were kidding around...? :lol: I hope you live long and never have a headache and never lose your keys.

    I don't believe every article on the Disclaimer list of NCBI. It's just a repository, not a research study. No different from Harvard and its weird articles.

    Or maybe I am wrong. ::shrug::
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,647 Member
    edited November 2023
    cmriverside wrote: »
    ...and I would add..."remember better," than - what - exactly? How do you prove that? I don't know, maybe the pain part is objective. "Antiaging" though? Hm. How would it be proven that any given person wasn't going to age in a particular way and at a certain rate had he/she not fasted? Is it fasting for years, or a week? How is that studied.

    Sorry, JThan, maybe you were kidding around...? :lol: I hope you live long and never have a headache and never lose your keys.

    I don't believe every article on the Disclaimer list of NCBI. It's just a repository, not a research study. No different from Harvard and its weird articles.

    Or maybe I am wrong. ::shrug::

    Yeah exactly. It's not fasting per se that improves cognition, it's the ability to improve insulin sensitively over time. Exercise improves insulin sensitively as well in this context over time. Basically one of the downsides of insulin resistance and diabetes and a lifetime of higher blood sugar is it's effect on blood vessels in the brain and the eventual atrophy and cell death which then effects memory and thinking in general, it's well established and recognized as diabetes 3 where the blood brain barrier is compromised.

    This is also why the ketogenic diet is studied so much in this regard. Ketones use a different pathway and circumvents the glucose pathway allowing ATP to be used by the brain improving cognition and why you'll see hundreds of ongoing studies for demetia, alzheimers and other brain dysfunction.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31996078/

    Several small human studies have shown benefit on cognition in dementia with a ketogenic diet intervention. Future, large controlled studies are needed to confirm this benefit; however, the ketogenic diet has shown promise in regard to delay or mitigation of symptoms of cognitive decline.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30554068/

    The underlying pathology of Alzheimer's is not yet fully understood, so existing research has focused on understanding the prominent features of the disease. These include amyloid plaques, which accumulate in the brains of those with Alzheimer's disease; impaired glucose metabolism; and neuronal cell death. Emerging evidence suggests that a low-carbohydrate, high-fat ketogenic diet may help to mitigate the damage associated with these pathologies. The ketogenic diet could alleviate the effects of impaired glucose metabolism by providing ketones as a supplementary energy source.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,647 Member
    edited November 2023
    Also TRF is not fasting. Fasting is the effects from not eating over a time line where TRF is studying the metabolic effects as it relates to a single 24 hour period while calories are ad libitum, basically calories are at maintenance and held there for the study period otherwise the metabolic effects of TRF can't be discerned from the effects of weight loss. Basically TRF is about when you eat and not how much you eat.
  • vivmom2014
    vivmom2014 Posts: 1,649 Member
    @Jthanmyfitnesspal Just from the puppy standpoint, we also became puppy owners at the end of June, and the demands to exercise her (Siberian Husky - so admittedly a very different breed from yours) plus general insane puppy care (sleep deprivation anyone?) had me dropping so much weight it was almost alarming. So I'm wondering if the increased exercise that puppies demand is helping in your weight loss efforts?
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    vivmom2014 wrote: »
    So I'm wondering if the increased exercise that puppies demand is helping in your weight loss efforts?

    Only sort of. This small dog is not supposed to walk more than about a mile. We do that same mile 1-2 times a day. But, it's only a mile, and it cuts into my exercise time. Things are rapidly changing as we reach the 6 month mark. Mileage will start to increase and he may be able to jog with me. (That's mostly up to whether the dog likes to move along at a slow human jogging pace without stopping to sniff stuff. Pretty rare!)
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    I don't believe every article on the Disclaimer list of NCBI ["PubMed"]. It's just a repository, not a research study.

    That's definitely a good policy, particularly if they have to do with nutrition. But, this is a review article, not an original research article. To evaluate it's claims, you'd start by checking through all the associated references. Sounds too much like work to me, so I'll just peruse it and take what I like.

    And, If fasting were really all that great, our forebears who commonly suffered from malnutrition would have lived longer than we do today!
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    My most interesting fasting day was Thanksgiving! We ate at 2. I fasted until around 12, then just ate a few nuts and cheese while I waited for the feast. And, I found I could only eat a single (large) portion. Dinner was pie and ice cream. Hey, it worked for me!

    Friday, I did a 5k event. I fasted until afterwards. Sat, I did a hike. I fasted until around 10, then ate some nuts and dates. That got me up the mountain!

    The moral is: I really don’t need to eat right when l get up.
  • chris_in_cal
    chris_in_cal Posts: 2,766 Member
    Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »
    If half of this is true, I'm going to live forever

    In the physical plane, no. But due to you posting all of this online, large language models (LLM) will be able to scrape all of your words, ideas, points of view, thoughts and with artificial intelligence (AI) create a simulaceum Jthanmyfitnesspal that infact will "live" forever.

    Or, not.
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    @chris_in_cal : 😲
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    I stayed the course over the holidays. It was interesting. I had a huge lunch sometime after 12 each day. Lots of carbs, sweets and alcohol, too. I had a long walk most mornings with the pup, which served to reduce my hunger. I find it harder to delay eating if I’m inactive, in fact. Darn this desk job!
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    I’m still at it. I try to wrap up dinner well before 8 and I delay my first meal ant least until noon. Sometimes I finish eating earlier and sometimes break my fast later, so I’m doing 16+/8- IF. 😀 And, it’s going fine. It doesn’t seem to matter if I exercise the night before or even in the morning.

    It has seemed to be a motivator and I’ve been very productive. So, I like doing it. But: it hasn’t been a magic bullet for losing weight. I need to track to do that, it seems. (The point was to avoid tracking.)
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    More news from my stomach:

    It's January, so I'm starting to exercise more. Monday night I did an hour of stationary bike after dinner. Tuesday it was a bear fasting until noon. I was so hungry at 9! Yet, somehow, I made it, although I was really hungry by noon. Luckily, I had work to distract me or I wouldn't have made it!

    Man, I hope fasting is making me smarter, because it's hard sometimes!
  • xbowhunter
    xbowhunter Posts: 1,333 Member
    I fast daily as well. I do this when I am sleeping... lol
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    xbowhunter wrote: »
    I fast daily as well. I do this when I am sleeping... lol

    There are reasons to extend your fast to 16h or more. I have definitely had struggles, but I've also experienced some benefits. The promises are lofty: you'll be thinner, smarter, more energetic, and live longer! Check this out:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8754590/

    I particularly like this quote:

    "Fasting can stimulate neurogenesis and enhance synaptic plasticity, which can regulate pain sensations and enhance cognitive function and the antiaging ability of the brain. These beneficial effects may be associated with changes in neurotrophic factors and neurotransmitters."

    Holy moly, how can you turn that down?
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    Well, I'm still at it and still not losing any weight. I've been less active overall than at other times because I've had a couple of injuries and other issues (my favorite pool closed for long-term repairs, 😭!)

    Now I'm trying to ramp up the exercise, and the fasting in the morning is getting harder. I'm beginning to think it's one or the other: fast or exercise. Doing both is too hard and perhaps counterproductive.
  • tulips_and_tea
    tulips_and_tea Posts: 5,771 Member
    Sorry to hear about the injuries, but it sounds like you're finding a variation of IF that is more sustainable for you, so that's definitely a win! Thanks for the update.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 10,519 Member
    Heya, nice to hear from you again, and so sorry about your injuries. Still you're doing great!
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 36,415 Member
    Good to see you back here, @Jthanmyfitnesspal!

    I'm so sorry to hear about your sciatica flare-up: I hate it when those set-backs happen.

    Good show that you've been able to get back to exercising and focusing on your weight and health again, plus have figured out helpful tweaks to personalize your tactics.

    IMO, personalization is a key success factor, since we're all unique individuals. There are lots of different potential paths to fitness improvement and better health (including healthy body weight). Finding the right personal path is a power tool for reaching goals.

    Wishing you continuing success (and no more sciatica unpleasantness)!
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member
    Man, I am getting good at this! I went hiking with a friend (not a huge hike, just a short climb). I still ate nothing until lunch afterward, and I wasn't particularly hungry. In fact, I've been able to undereat from my plan without undue hunger. I'm down 4.3%BW since Jan 1.

    Some new things I'm trying

    - Not too much cardo. Keeping it to every other day or so. (On some cuts, I've done daily cardio.)
    - Increased resistance training on the alternate days. Getting my core back as well as other lifts.
    - Doing approximately 8/16, but counting the calories, not the hours. If I'm super hungry at 11, I eat at 11.
    - I eat dinner early unless I'm hitting the gym after work
    - I'm significantly undereating exercise calories. Although they're probably accurate, I definitely compensate with lower activity levels after doing a hard cardio workout. This is increasing as I get older. (A jog is followed by a nap!)

  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member

    Man, I really like saving calories to eat at dinner. Then I have a nice contented evening. I find it really difficult to eat a small dinner and go to bed hungry.

  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member

    I read through my own thread before posting in it this time. I see I've repeated myself! I'm still doing 16:8, more or less, with more emphasis on logging then on timing. Basically, I skip breakfast and keep a lid on total calories, which automatically keeps me from eating much after dinner.

    Spring is springing and I'm increasing exercise. I try to do two days each of cycling and jogging with at least one day of some sort of weights. It's now warm enough to do some of the cycling on the actual roads, as I did yesterday. Generally, this leads to a session that is longer than an hour, in fact, yesterday's ride was 84min with a Garmin calorie estimate of 700kcals (active). I ate pretty much on program for the day, so the day should have a deficit of 1200kcals (balancing some indulging at a party Sat night).

    Today I am hungry! It interferes with working in the morning.

    Assuming I don't get injured again, a decision point is coming about how to eat the extra calories coming through exercise. I'm nervous, because what caused my weight gain over the past two years was not reducing eating when I couldn't do the workouts due to one injury or another. And, I should probably expect some more of that at my age.

  • lgfrie
    lgfrie Posts: 1,451 Member
    edited May 13

    So, I have 6 years under my belt (literally) of on-again-off-again 16:8.

    Roller coaster summary: I started 16:8 in 2019, lost a very fast 70 pounds (in 6 months!), then lost my motivation and edge, regained half the weight, tried to recapture the magic focusing just on calorie deficit because I was tired of not being able to snack a little at night or eat breakfast, didn't work, went back to TRE, lost weight, got bored with TRE and gained it back, repeat ad infinitum. My last crack at IF was in 2022; I then took a few years off from dieting (and health).

    I'm 4 months into being back to TRE 24x7, and am once again shedding pounds, around 7 per month (I'm 62 now; everything gets slower; 11 lbs in a month seems like a dream from an alt reality). Honestly, TRE is the only method that works for me; I've finally come to terms with that. I can be stubborn about things.

    One interesting thing is the strong support for TRE this year from my doc, due to my rising A1C over the last few years, which peaked at 5.7. He got me on a lower-carb, no-added-sugar version of Mediterranean and TRE, and my A1C has come down .4 in the past 4 months!! I'm pretty happy about that. It's also a lot easier to hit a calorie target when you remove sugar, refined carbs, etc.

    In the end, we all know it's cals in / cals out as far as weight goes, but there are different ways to make that happen & it's a real challenge to find the WOE that individually fits.

    For me, the priceless contribution of 16:8 is appetite suppression. I really don't know whether it's because of all the insulin peak mumbo jumbo, grehlin, etc., or if it's just getting used to not eating a lot of the time such that you learn to ignore the hunger pangs, but one way or another, I hardly ever feel hungry when I'm doing IF - in or out of the eating window - and my appetite just plummets in general. When I'm not being disciplined with TRE, I'm hungry almost all the time and it makes it super-hard to lose weight or even maintain weight.

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,647 Member
    edited May 13
    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/48608446#Comment_48608446

    Yeah, it's almost all hormonal and as it pertains to people that are insulin resistant, prediabetic, or have diabetes the more blood sugar sticks around elevated it actually increases hunger although there's already excess glucose in the bloodstream from a meal and that includes when glycogen stores are full, the body still perceives an energy shortage because glucose isn’t properly reaching muscle and other tissues either.

    Chronic high blood sugar in these people can and does lead to leptin resistance, which is the brains hunger regulator leading to persistent hunger. The other hunger hormone ghrelin which is in the digestive tract becomes dysregulated by consistently high blood sugar which can and does create strong cravings, basically a double whammy. And when the general consensus among authorities is to eat 3 meals a day plus some snacks and with people consuming food and mostly processed and junk from basically when they get up with many eating just before they go to bed, that's the environment where higher blood sugar thrives especially when asking people to eat a high carb and low fat diet.

    At least your doctor recognized and had the knowledge to suggest a low carb med type diet, which is basically whole food which always results in lower elevated blood glucose levels and considering diabetes and the associated insulin resistance and prediabetes is only facilitated by consuming carbohydrates (sugar) your A1C came down.

    Your 16:8 TRE allows for more time over a 24 hour period for stable blood sugar. Instead of people generally eating for 14 hrs of that 24 hr period your eating only for 6 hrs, so more time spend with steady blood sugar, although blood sugar does fluctuate somewhat.

    Just a low carb diet has a big effect on our hunger hormones (leptin & ghrelin) which helps regulate appetite and cravings for the above reasons and confirmed in pretty much all scientific literature and combining that with 16:8 is a powerful approach for improving metabolic health and regulating hunger and people find this combo great for weight loss, energy levels, and mental clarity, but it’s important to ensure nutrient intake remains balanced which I'm sure blood panels done by your Doctor would handle and shortcomings if any.

    I've been keto for years and low carb periodically and personally I don't do TRE but do 5:2 if I need to lose a little weight, which for me works like a charm and I, like many others on keto don't count calories, but I will check them periodically if I have a reason to do that. I also do a 3 day fast which I recently finished and the feeling has been rather euphoric and will continue with them. Glad your finding some success.

  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,618 Member

    @lgfrie :

    And you and are the same age!

    Those weight loss rates are amazing. -70lbs/21 weeks is -0.38lbs/day, which is equivalent to a net deficit (calories burned - calories eaten) of -1330kcals/day. Wow! Even dropping -7lbs a month is a deficit of -803kcals/day. Still, wow!

    (This uses the formula that every pound lost is equivalent to a net deficit of -3500kcals. It's not exact.)

    I struggle to lose 1lb/week even feeling deprived every single day with (supposedly) >500kcal deficits. But, I'm hypothyroid, which lowers my metabolism considerably, and I really have to eat light to lose any weight. It's hard, and it has been making me slightly mental. You can find my other threads about it.

    But, as you've experienced, fast weight loss can be followed by fast weight gain. (In my case, slow weight loss seems to always lead to slow weight gain.) Some people think you need to stay at a new lower weight for better than a year to get your body to stop hankering for an increase. (The troll in your belly bangs on the bars if he thinks it will do any good.)

    So, may people think that slower is better. Clearly, I need to keep logging even when I hit maintenance for quite a long time— maybe a year. Maybe you should do that, too!

    Best of luck!

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