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can't gain muscle while dieting???..... confused...
MoooveOverFluffy
Posts: 398 Member
So i thought i knew more than the average joe about what i needed to do to get in shape. i read lots of articles online, in magazines, and here on the forums. but i was just reading here (yes, i used the search function) that in order to gain muscle you have to have a calorie surplus. Obviously, i'm trying to lose weight and i'm on a calorie deficit.......Sooooooo.......??? Should i not do strength training till i've lost more weight?? I'm 5'2 and currently weigh around 155, with my ultimate goal being 125-130 or a size 6 (less concerned with the scale)....i workout 3-5x per week doing light cardio and light strength training..... OPINIONS PLEASE!!
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Replies
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to clarify: i know muscle helps you burn calories, so i thought it was possible to build muscle through strength training, while at the same time being in a calorie deficit....0
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So i thought i knew more than the average joe about what i needed to do to get in shape. i read lots of articles online, in magazines, and here on the forums. but i was just reading here (yes, i used the search function) that in order to gain muscle you have to have a calorie surplus. Obviously, i'm trying to lose weight and i'm on a calorie deficit.......Sooooooo.......??? Should i not do strength training till i've lost more weight?? I'm 5'2 and currently weigh around 155, with my ultimate goal being 125-130 or a size 6 (less concerned with the scale)....i workout 3-5x per week doing light cardio and light strength training..... OPINIONS PLEASE!!
First, I'll probably start a flame war but I'm sticking to my guns on this. I believe Lyle McDonald has some info on this but I'd have to check as I'm going off of memory.
It is very, very difficult to gain lean mass while cutting. Under specific circumstances ( someone who was jacked, got out of shape, and is now returning to lifting, and sometimes with very overweight people who are first-time weightlifters) it is POSSIBLE. However, it is unlikely, and the most practical approach for lean gains is to eat at a small surplus.
That being said, you should engage in weight training immediately. Failure to do so will increase the likelihood that you will lose lean mass while you are dieting. Lifting will help to counteract this and you will likely end up with a much better looking physique.0 -
While it's true that you can't gain significant muscle in a deficit, this doesn't imply that you shouldn't be strength training.
Strength training (and adequate protein) will help you hold on to your muscle mass, so that the weight you lose is primarily fat.
Edit: Ninja'd
Here's the Lyle McD article the above poster was referring to:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html0 -
So i thought i knew more than the average joe about what i needed to do to get in shape. i read lots of articles online, in magazines, and here on the forums. but i was just reading here (yes, i used the search function) that in order to gain muscle you have to have a calorie surplus. Obviously, i'm trying to lose weight and i'm on a calorie deficit.......Sooooooo.......??? Should i not do strength training till i've lost more weight?? I'm 5'2 and currently weigh around 155, with my ultimate goal being 125-130 or a size 6 (less concerned with the scale)....i workout 3-5x per week doing light cardio and light strength training..... OPINIONS PLEASE!!
First, I'll probably start a flame war but I'm sticking to my guns on this. I believe Lyle McDonald has some info on this but I'd have to check as I'm going off of memory.
It is very, very difficult to gain lean mass while cutting. Under specific circumstances ( someone who was jacked, got out of shape, and is now returning to lifting, and sometimes with very overweight people who are first-time weightlifters) it is POSSIBLE. However, it is unlikely, and the most practical approach for lean gains is to eat at a small surplus.
That being said, you should engage in weight training immediately. Failure to do so will increase the likelihood that you will lose lean mass while you are dieting. Lifting will help to counteract this and you will likely end up with a much better looking physique.
Perfectly said.0 -
While it's true that you can't gain significant muscle in a deficit, this doesn't imply that you shouldn't be strength training.
Strength training (and adequate protein) will help you hold on to your muscle mass, so that the weight you lose is primarily fat.
And with my previous post, I'm going to add that I fully agree with the above. The word "significant" definitely applies here and to my previous comments.0 -
You can't build sometime out of nothing. BUT yes, you should still weight train. When we lose weight we often lose muscle along with the fat. Besides burning extra calories, weight training will help maintain as much muscle as possible. Also, you can definitely strengthen the muscles you already have.0
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I don't know about "gaining" muscle, but I do weight training 3-4 times a week, as well as hot yoga, and I've been on a calorie deficit since July, and I am definitely getting stronger.0
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I would concur. There have been several studies on it and the 3 main types to gain muscle on a calorie deficit would likely be:First, I'll probably start a flame war but I'm sticking to my guns on this. I believe Lyle McDonald has some info on this but I'd have to check as I'm going off of memory.
It is very, very difficult to gain lean mass while cutting. Under specific circumstances ( someone who was jacked, got out of shape, and is now returning to lifting, and sometimes with very overweight people who are first-time weightlifters) it is POSSIBLE. However, it is unlikely, and the most practical approach for lean gains is to eat at a small surplus.
That being said, you should engage in weight training immediately. Failure to do so will increase the likelihood that you will lose lean mass while you are dieting. Lifting will help to counteract this and you will likely end up with a much better looking physique.
An athlete or person who used to train hard returning to lifting after a long, long layoff
A very overweight or obese person who has started to incorporate lifting into their program
A person who has NEVER lifted or never lifted with any consistency at all taking on lifting in their program
Simple point is, to build muscle, you will GAIN weight. To gain weight you will be in calorie surplus. NOT ALL PROTEIN you consume will be converted to muscle. Some of it will be used as energy and some of it will end up being stored as fat. That's why usually to gain a pound of muscle, you will inadvertently add about .3lbs or more of fat with it.0 -
I don't have the answers, and I'm by no means any kind of expert. From personal experience though, I have definitely gained strength while losing. I think I've lost a lot more slowly than I could have, but my calories are set at 1400 a day, I tend to burn around 300, and eat a total of about 1500.
I mix cardio and strength, focusing a lot on moves such as pushups, deadlifts, squats, and so on. concentration curls, etc. I have definition where I never thought possible, I have increased the amount of weight I'm lifting as lower weights get too easy. Am I buff? Not by any means, but I am stronger and I have some pretty toned arms. I think if I'd gone down to something like 1200cals a day I have lost a lot more lbs, but, I'd rather lose slowly and be strong and toned. I've lost a ton of inches by incorporating strength training into my routines.0 -
I would concur. There have been several studies on it and the 3 main types to gain muscle on a calorie deficit would likely be:First, I'll probably start a flame war but I'm sticking to my guns on this. I believe Lyle McDonald has some info on this but I'd have to check as I'm going off of memory.
It is very, very difficult to gain lean mass while cutting. Under specific circumstances ( someone who was jacked, got out of shape, and is now returning to lifting, and sometimes with very overweight people who are first-time weightlifters) it is POSSIBLE. However, it is unlikely, and the most practical approach for lean gains is to eat at a small surplus.
That being said, you should engage in weight training immediately. Failure to do so will increase the likelihood that you will lose lean mass while you are dieting. Lifting will help to counteract this and you will likely end up with a much better looking physique.
An athlete or person who used to train hard returning to lifting after a long, long layoff
A very overweight or obese person who has started to incorporate lifting into their program
A person who has NEVER lifted or never lifted with any consistency at all taking on lifting in their program
Simple point is, to build muscle, you will GAIN weight. To gain weight you will be in calorie surplus. NOT ALL PROTEIN you consume will be converted to muscle. Some of it will be used as energy and some of it will end up being stored as fat. That's why usually to gain a pound of muscle, you will inadvertently add about .3lbs or more of fat with it.
These actually do make perfect sense. I'm kind of a combination of the first two "types" here. In high school I did a lot of weight training, the only girl in the "male gym" during P.E. Early 20s I gained a LOT of weight after moving to Idaho and driving everywhere/boredom eating/etc. As you can see by my ticker I've had a LOT to lose, and it's been years since strength training of any sort, until the past 4 months or so.0 -
THANK YOU!! Then i'll continue doing what i'm doing... sometimes the wealth of information is a bit much to comprehend. I believe in keeping it simple...................... =0)0
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I would concur. There have been several studies on it and the 3 main types to gain muscle on a calorie deficit would likely be:First, I'll probably start a flame war but I'm sticking to my guns on this. I believe Lyle McDonald has some info on this but I'd have to check as I'm going off of memory.
It is very, very difficult to gain lean mass while cutting. Under specific circumstances ( someone who was jacked, got out of shape, and is now returning to lifting, and sometimes with very overweight people who are first-time weightlifters) it is POSSIBLE. However, it is unlikely, and the most practical approach for lean gains is to eat at a small surplus.
That being said, you should engage in weight training immediately. Failure to do so will increase the likelihood that you will lose lean mass while you are dieting. Lifting will help to counteract this and you will likely end up with a much better looking physique.
An athlete or person who used to train hard returning to lifting after a long, long layoff
A very overweight or obese person who has started to incorporate lifting into their program
A person who has NEVER lifted or never lifted with any consistency at all taking on lifting in their program
Simple point is, to build muscle, you will GAIN weight. To gain weight you will be in calorie surplus. NOT ALL PROTEIN you consume will be converted to muscle. Some of it will be used as energy and some of it will end up being stored as fat. That's why usually to gain a pound of muscle, you will inadvertently add about .3lbs or more of fat with it.
Some very wise advice here. While you may not be able to gain muscle on a caloric deficit, you can slow down the lean muscle loss. So instead of say 20% lean mass per pound you may lose 10% or 15% of lean mass per pound. When we're talking in terms of large weight loss that's a big deal. For example a person with 100 pounds to lose may low up to 20 pounds or more of lean mass in the process, or as little as 10 pounds. if it were me I'd rather be in the 10 pound category. So, do both, just make sure that you're lifitng heavy.0 -
I would concur. There have been several studies on it and the 3 main types to gain muscle on a calorie deficit would likely be:First, I'll probably start a flame war but I'm sticking to my guns on this. I believe Lyle McDonald has some info on this but I'd have to check as I'm going off of memory.
It is very, very difficult to gain lean mass while cutting. Under specific circumstances ( someone who was jacked, got out of shape, and is now returning to lifting, and sometimes with very overweight people who are first-time weightlifters) it is POSSIBLE. However, it is unlikely, and the most practical approach for lean gains is to eat at a small surplus.
That being said, you should engage in weight training immediately. Failure to do so will increase the likelihood that you will lose lean mass while you are dieting. Lifting will help to counteract this and you will likely end up with a much better looking physique.
An athlete or person who used to train hard returning to lifting after a long, long layoff
A very overweight or obese person who has started to incorporate lifting into their program
A person who has NEVER lifted or never lifted with any consistency at all taking on lifting in their program
Simple point is, to build muscle, you will GAIN weight. To gain weight you will be in calorie surplus. NOT ALL PROTEIN you consume will be converted to muscle. Some of it will be used as energy and some of it will end up being stored as fat. That's why usually to gain a pound of muscle, you will inadvertently add about .3lbs or more of fat with it.
I agree with what you guys to a point BUT I have recently been losing weight and cutting up which means if i am losing fat i am gaining muscle. I . Today at work a guy was talking about how shredded i looked. I told him it was from cardio and eating healthy over the years. I don't lift a lot but I look like I lift.
My average daily goal is about 1570 cals but I normally end up with a -1200 deficit especially on my cycling days (typically 5 days a week or more). I also do circuit training instead of heavy lifting. I haven't weighed myself in a while but I even can tell how much smaller I have gotten and how much more defined my body is even though i have lost weight.0 -
I am a big fan of weight training especially for women who are losing weight.
I weight train 3-4 days per week with heavy weights and try to maintain between a 250 and 500 calorie defecit (had a month or so where I kinda fell off the wagon with my food but kept up with the weights). In 10 months, my body fat percentage has dropped from 47% to 28% along with 22 lbs of weight lost. It's a slower weight loss than when I was not lifting, but I look a lot better. I'm stronger, leaner and much fitter. To me, this is much more important than what I see on the scale.
I have put on about 12 lbs of lean mass in ten months. However, I am a former athlete and was well into the obese range when I began lifting. Most conventional information about lifting is geared towards people who are healthy BMI or overweight when they start lifting, not those of us who are obese, and I have no idea what difference that makes other than my own experience. My trainer thinks that this is why I put on so much muscle while weight training which doesn't happen nearly so fast for people of healthy weight. Honestly, I don't understand it very well and haven't found much research out there, so I can't say more than that, unfortunately. The only article I found that addresses this is this one: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html0 -
I see another point of confusion here. Adding "strength" is not the same as "adding muscle". You can get stronger without your muscles growing.0
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It's very hard to gain any muscle on a calorie deficit, but I think it is possible to gain a little if you've just started out.
Even if you can't though, it's still important to include weight training into your routine. It helps you maintain what you do have / slows down the rate at which you lose it - also, you can still get stronger
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There are circumstance that both can happen at the same time but it's short lived and rely's on the adaptability of the body to combat 2 metabolic functions that are polar opposites. Generally speaking in a thermodynamic sense as it pertains to all living things if it doesn't get the proper energy and nutrients required to grow then that growing will stop or decline, this is basic physiology.
Getting back to those two opposing metabolic functions, fat loss and muscle building. When someone takes the body out of it's usual comfort zone the body will react, and in the case of calorie deficit, it will rely on stored body fat to make up the calories it requires to continue to supply the body with the correct amount of calories for that stable equilibrium it has been use to......and it will also take those nutrients from muscle and bone when and if required as well. Building muscle requires extra nutrients over and above the amount needed for that stable environement.....basically we need to supply additional energy for anything that gets built including muscle.....
Here's where that adaption can happen for some, but not in all circumstances. Our defence mechanisms that help us to survive kick in immediately and if someone that has never exercised before or lifted extra weight over and above their normal daily activity will cause a degree of stress on their centra nervous system and in defence of this activity (extra weight lode) the body reacts by increasing lean mass so that future effort to do that particular job will need less energy allowing more nutrients overall to be conserved for other bodily functions......trying to find a new stable environement. The body decides what's more important. Either be crushed or injured by the extra weight lode and not build muscle and accept that the calorie deficit that is detected be the priority, or build muscle in the face of nutrient deprevation. Because the body has never faced these two circumstance before the imminant danger of being crushed or insured is more important than the possibility of dying of starvation eventually........this is the adaptive phase........eventually starvation become more of a threat and that adaptive phase stops and the body stops building and starts using muscle as well as body fat for it's daily requirements. The bottom line is this adaptive phase is very short (months, maybe) and where all the conflict about this subject originates from, but the basic principle of you can't build muscle in a deficit is not in jeopardy. imo of course.0 -
I would concur. There have been several studies on it and the 3 main types to gain muscle on a calorie deficit would likely be:First, I'll probably start a flame war but I'm sticking to my guns on this. I believe Lyle McDonald has some info on this but I'd have to check as I'm going off of memory.
It is very, very difficult to gain lean mass while cutting. Under specific circumstances ( someone who was jacked, got out of shape, and is now returning to lifting, and sometimes with very overweight people who are first-time weightlifters) it is POSSIBLE. However, it is unlikely, and the most practical approach for lean gains is to eat at a small surplus.
That being said, you should engage in weight training immediately. Failure to do so will increase the likelihood that you will lose lean mass while you are dieting. Lifting will help to counteract this and you will likely end up with a much better looking physique.
An athlete or person who used to train hard returning to lifting after a long, long layoff
A very overweight or obese person who has started to incorporate lifting into their program
A person who has NEVER lifted or never lifted with any consistency at all taking on lifting in their program
Simple point is, to build muscle, you will GAIN weight. To gain weight you will be in calorie surplus. NOT ALL PROTEIN you consume will be converted to muscle. Some of it will be used as energy and some of it will end up being stored as fat. That's why usually to gain a pound of muscle, you will inadvertently add about .3lbs or more of fat with it.
I agree with what you guys to a point BUT I have recently been losing weight and cutting up which means if i am losing fat i am gaining muscle. I . Today at work a guy was talking about how shredded i looked. I told him it was from cardio and eating healthy over the years. I don't lift a lot but I look like I lift.
My average daily goal is about 1570 cals but I normally end up with a -1200 deficit especially on my cycling days (typically 5 days a week or more). I also do circuit training instead of heavy lifting. I haven't weighed myself in a while but I even can tell how much smaller I have gotten and how much more defined my body is even though i have lost weight.
I see what you're saying, but decreasing your overall bf% will make your muscles more defined because you don't have the fat deposits, so it's partially an optical illusion.0 -
It is true, you can't build up if you are on a calorie deficit. However....take a look at my pic - and that was all from strength training AND calorie deficit (more clean eating, really).
Now that I am at the point, I have been steadily increasing my caloric intake, b/c 1) my body burns more, and needs it and 2) I'm trying to build a little.
At the point that you're at right now, I would just worry about eating healthy, and getting strength training in. When you lose enough body fat, your muscle definition will begin to show. Then you can kind of tweak things, depending on where you want to take it.0 -
There are circumstance that both can happen at the same time but it's short lived and rely's on the adaptability of the body to combat 2 metabolic functions that are polar opposites. Generally speaking in a thermodynamic sense as it pertains to all living things if it doesn't get the proper energy and nutrients required to grow then that growing will stop or decline, this is basic physiology.
Getting back to those two opposing metabolic functions, fat loss and muscle building. When someone takes the body out of it's usual comfort zone the body will react, and in the case of calorie deficit, it will rely on stored body fat to make up the calories it requires to continue to supply the body with the correct amount of calories for that stable equilibrium it has been use to......and it will also take those nutrients from muscle and bone when and if required as well. Building muscle requires extra nutrients over and above the amount needed for that stable environement.....basically we need to supply additional energy for anything that gets built including muscle.....
Here's where that adaption can happen for some, but not in all circumstances. Our defence mechanisms that help us to survive kick in immediately and if someone that has never exercised before or lifted extra weight over and above their normal daily activity will cause a degree of stress on their centra nervous system and in defence of this activity (extra weight lode) the body reacts by increasing lean mass so that future effort to do that particular job will need less energy allowing more nutrients overall to be conserved for other bodily functions......trying to find a new stable environement. The body decides what's more important. Either be crushed or injured by the extra weight lode and not build muscle and accept that the calorie deficit that is detected be the priority, or build muscle in the face of nutrient deprevation. Because the body has never faced these two circumstance before the imminant danger of being crushed or insured is more important than the possibility of dying of starvation eventually........this is the adaptive phase........eventually starvation become more of a threat and that adaptive phase stops and the body stops building and starts using muscle as well as body fat for it's daily requirements. The bottom line is this adaptive phase is very short (months, maybe) and where all the conflict about this subject originates from, but the basic principle of you can't build muscle in a deficit is not in jeopardy. imo of course.
This makes sense, and I think this is what is going on with me (see above post).
Do you have more articles on this preferably studies?0 -
iplayoutside.... i basically wanted to know if i should continue the strength/weight training, or if i should switch up to straight cardio until i reached goal weight (at which point i would be @maintenance calories and not a deficit), But the info i'm getting is not that far off of what i previously believed: weight training will help you hold onto the muscle you have, but you wont gain significant muscle without a calorie surplus.............. SO, keep doing the weight training is the verdict......0
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So i thought i knew more than the average joe about what i needed to do to get in shape. i read lots of articles online, in magazines, and here on the forums. but i was just reading here (yes, i used the search function) that in order to gain muscle you have to have a calorie surplus. Obviously, i'm trying to lose weight and i'm on a calorie deficit.......Sooooooo.......??? Should i not do strength training till i've lost more weight?? I'm 5'2 and currently weigh around 155, with my ultimate goal being 125-130 or a size 6 (less concerned with the scale)....i workout 3-5x per week doing light cardio and light strength training..... OPINIONS PLEASE!!
You'd have to tell us exactly what you are doing in terms of your "lifting" routine.
I'd make strength traning part of any exercise routine.0 -
The average male doing everything right from a nutrition and training point of view can gain maybe a quarter of a pound of muscle per week. New lifters can perhaps double or triple that over the first couple months. The problem is I doubt more than a few if any on this site are doing 100% everything correct and are also at a metabolically ideal age. I would be surprised if the average male here gains more than a quarter of a pound a week. So, if you’re maintaining weight it's probably not from gaining muscle. Females will probably see half the gains men will.
Gaining strength isn't a good indicator of gain muscle. The body has fast twitch muscle fibers and this is the type of muscle that is responsible for lifting ability. Everyone has some amount of fast twitch muscle based on genetics. However, no matter how much muscle and fast twitch muscle you have if can't recruit those fiber proficiently then it doesn't matter much how much muscle you have.
When a person starts lifting they generally are not able to recruit fast twitch muscle fibers efficiently. So, a relatively low percentage of their fast twitch muscle fibers can be recruited for lifting.
The kicker here is when you train your body becomes more efficient at recruiting FT fibers, the fibers you already had but were unable to recruit well enough.
Just by training alone you will make gains in strength just for being more efficient. In fact, most strength gains made by newbie lifters are from increased efficiency in fast twitch muscle fibers of preexisting muscle.
If you add into it that it's pretty difficult to gain muscle on a calorie deficit, the vast majority of strength gains early on are not due to gaining muscle.
New lifters that are obese will put on some new muscle the first couple of months if the deficit isn't too big, but it's not that big of a gain. Most of the strength gained by newbies is just increased efficiencey in recruiting fast twich fibers.0 -
To gain new muscle tissue you need to eat a calorie surplus. The only circumstance where you can eat a deficit and gain some muscle is if you are morbidly obese that your body is using your fat stores as energy (calories) to add some new tissue. Lyle McDonald explains this much better as he goes into good detail about it, but it's possible.
Also like the other posters above have said, women don't gain muscle mass at anywhere close to the rate that men do unless they are on the juice.0
This discussion has been closed.
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