"starvation mode".....

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  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    5) i know that your metabolism slows when you arent eating anything (ex... skipping breakfast and fasting til dinner).... but what if you eat/snack consistently (like 8, 100 calorie meals paced out through the day) wouldnt that keep your metabolism strong even if you might be cutting below 1200 total?

    Increased meal frequency does not increase metabolism and metabolic slowdown will occur somewhere around the 48-72 hr mark, not simply skipping breakfast

    As for "starvation mode"

    from lyle mcdonald
    Quite in fact, most studies don’t examine lean individuals at all but there is one study that is possibly relevant which is the seminal Minnesota Semi-Starvation Study.

    I’ve talked about this study before and it represents one of the most massively well-controlled studies on the topic ever done (or that will ever be done). In it, war objectors were placed on approximately a 50% reduction from maintenance calories (which only put them around 1500 calories/day or thereabouts in the first place) and were held there for 6 straight months. Activity (walking) was enforced and most men reached the lower limits of body fat percentage by the end of it. I’d note that only men were studied so it’s possible that women, who are prone to showing more resistance to fat loss, could show a differential response.
    And the total reduction in daily energy expenditure only amounted to 40% (of which the majority of that was due to the weight loss). Weight and fat loss had basically stopped at the end of the study which makes sense; the original 50% deficit had been reduced to at most 10% due to the 40% reduction in metabolic rate.

    The bottom line is that no study I’ve ever seen has suggested that total daily energy expenditure could be reduced to the levels that are implied by ‘gaining fat rapidly at 700-900 calories/day’.

    So what’s going on? Certainly some bad hormonal things go on when you combine heavy activity with heavy deficits for extended periods to low body fat levels (I’d note that various types of cylical dieting such as my own Ultimate Diet 2.0 and Martin Berkhan’s Intermittent Fasting approach seem to side-step at least some of this). Thyroid levels drops, nervous system output drops, testosterone levels crater, cortisol goes through the roof.

    And I would suspect/suggest that it is this last effect that is being observed and taken as evidence of ‘metabolic damage’. In a water depleted, glycogen depleted bodybuilder coming out of a contest diet, water balance is going to go absolutely crazy and cortisol is one mediator of this. Water retention secondary to glycogen storage will also contribute.

    So you have a situation where a post-contest bodybuilder may be seeing just massive swings in water weight (which can appear like rapid fat gain) following the contest; especially when you consider the normal runaway hunger that tends to occur at that point.
    Between glycogen storage and simple cortisol mediated water retention, I can’t see any other reason to explain the observation. Even one day of overeating carbs can cause massive water retention (for example, shifts in water weight of 7-10 pounds over a day or two are not uncommon on cyclical diets) and I suspect that’s what is being observed.

    Which is all a long way of saying the following: certainly there is evidence of metabolic derangement when you diet people down to low levels of body fat, this can probably be made worse if you undergo the normal severe overtraining cycle that most dieters go through at that point. But I don’t see any physiological way that true rapid FAT gain can occur at such low calorie levels. I’d suspect that water retention (and a bit of neurosis equating water weight gain with true fat gain) is the primary culprit here.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/permanent-metabolic-damage-qa.html
  • kluvsj
    kluvsj Posts: 9
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    for the last 20 years atleast starting back in highschool ive always been taught to eat 1200 calories a day, eating any less than that starves your body of the proper nutrients it needs to function, and i agree with allot of other peoples post im sure on a daily basis without even knowing it i was probably eating less than 1200 calories, and it made it so my body went into starvation mode and i held on to the weight, i also read that if you are not losing any weight than you are eating too many calories but it is also the same for eating way less, the norm is 1200 for a woman....its way different for a man, i strongly believe that you should never eat less than 1200 calories and curious if maybe something else is going on in your day to day schedule that is making it so you are not hungry are the choices you are making in food selection all healthy ones???
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    for the last 20 years atleast starting back in highschool ive always been taught to eat 1200 calories a day, eating any less than that starves your body of the proper nutrients it needs to function, and i agree with allot of other peoples post im sure on a daily basis without even knowing it i was probably eating less than 1200 calories, and it made it so my body went into starvation mode and i held on to the weight, i also read that if you are not losing any weight than you are eating too many calories but it is also the same for eating way less, the norm is 1200 for a woman....its way different for a man, i strongly believe that you should never eat less than 1200 calories and curious if maybe something else is going on in your day to day schedule that is making it so you are not hungry are the choices you are making in food selection all healthy ones???

    While i agree that the 1200 number is often thrown around since it's harder to get in adequate nutrition at lower levels of cals, it is entirely dependent on ht/wt/activity. A women who is very petite has different caloric needs then someone who is taller and heavier, that should go without saying though
  • jenifer7teen
    jenifer7teen Posts: 205 Member
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    5) i know that your metabolism slows when you arent eating anything (ex... skipping breakfast and fasting til dinner).... but what if you eat/snack consistently (like 8, 100 calorie meals paced out through the day) wouldnt that keep your metabolism strong even if you might be cutting below 1200 total?

    Increased meal frequency does not increase metabolism and metabolic slowdown will occur somewhere around the 48-72 hr mark, not simply skipping breakfast

    As for "starvation mode"

    from lyle mcdonald
    Quite in fact, most studies don’t examine lean individuals at all but there is one study that is possibly relevant which is the seminal Minnesota Semi-Starvation Study.

    I’ve talked about this study before and it represents one of the most massively well-controlled studies on the topic ever done (or that will ever be done). In it, war objectors were placed on approximately a 50% reduction from maintenance calories (which only put them around 1500 calories/day or thereabouts in the first place) and were held there for 6 straight months. Activity (walking) was enforced and most men reached the lower limits of body fat percentage by the end of it. I’d note that only men were studied so it’s possible that women, who are prone to showing more resistance to fat loss, could show a differential response.
    And the total reduction in daily energy expenditure only amounted to 40% (of which the majority of that was due to the weight loss). Weight and fat loss had basically stopped at the end of the study which makes sense; the original 50% deficit had been reduced to at most 10% due to the 40% reduction in metabolic rate.

    The bottom line is that no study I’ve ever seen has suggested that total daily energy expenditure could be reduced to the levels that are implied by ‘gaining fat rapidly at 700-900 calories/day’.

    So what’s going on? Certainly some bad hormonal things go on when you combine heavy activity with heavy deficits for extended periods to low body fat levels (I’d note that various types of cylical dieting such as my own Ultimate Diet 2.0 and Martin Berkhan’s Intermittent Fasting approach seem to side-step at least some of this). Thyroid levels drops, nervous system output drops, testosterone levels crater, cortisol goes through the roof.

    And I would suspect/suggest that it is this last effect that is being observed and taken as evidence of ‘metabolic damage’. In a water depleted, glycogen depleted bodybuilder coming out of a contest diet, water balance is going to go absolutely crazy and cortisol is one mediator of this. Water retention secondary to glycogen storage will also contribute.

    So you have a situation where a post-contest bodybuilder may be seeing just massive swings in water weight (which can appear like rapid fat gain) following the contest; especially when you consider the normal runaway hunger that tends to occur at that point.
    Between glycogen storage and simple cortisol mediated water retention, I can’t see any other reason to explain the observation. Even one day of overeating carbs can cause massive water retention (for example, shifts in water weight of 7-10 pounds over a day or two are not uncommon on cyclical diets) and I suspect that’s what is being observed.

    Which is all a long way of saying the following: certainly there is evidence of metabolic derangement when you diet people down to low levels of body fat, this can probably be made worse if you undergo the normal severe overtraining cycle that most dieters go through at that point. But I don’t see any physiological way that true rapid FAT gain can occur at such low calorie levels. I’d suspect that water retention (and a bit of neurosis equating water weight gain with true fat gain) is the primary culprit here.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/permanent-metabolic-damage-qa.html

    now that makes some sense to me....
  • Rae6503
    Rae6503 Posts: 6,294 Member
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  • ILiftHeavyAcrylics
    ILiftHeavyAcrylics Posts: 27,732 Member
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    I would like to see some more recent studies done on this-- the 1950s study is quoted in all the links I read, but nothing more current.


    good point. regardless- there may be more recent studies, but how thorough/relevant/unbiased/or extensive? it has always felt a bit like a myth to me. i mean if you're talking 1950's studies think of the inane ideas that were generally accepted facts around that time?!!! black people are less human; woman don't really have sexual needs or orgasmic possibilities.

    I guess it's not just the time period but also the fact that there's only one study.

    If you ARE looking at that study-- read the side effects that those men suffered as a result of the study. They actually began to develop anorexia-type psychological problems because of their starvation. When I first read that part of the results I was absolutely shocked. There are more problems with way under-eating than "starvation mode" whether it exists or not.

    edited for grammar *blush*
  • jenifer7teen
    jenifer7teen Posts: 205 Member
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    for the last 20 years atleast starting back in highschool ive always been taught to eat 1200 calories a day, eating any less than that starves your body of the proper nutrients it needs to function, and i agree with allot of other peoples post im sure on a daily basis without even knowing it i was probably eating less than 1200 calories, and it made it so my body went into starvation mode and i held on to the weight, i also read that if you are not losing any weight than you are eating too many calories but it is also the same for eating way less, the norm is 1200 for a woman....its way different for a man, i strongly believe that you should never eat less than 1200 calories and curious if maybe something else is going on in your day to day schedule that is making it so you are not hungry are the choices you are making in food selection all healthy ones???

    you could read my diary... but in summary i am a vegetarian, still prioritizing protein, eat virtually no sweets (unless you count alcohol), and very limited processed foods since i cook all my food and eat primarily vegetables/legumes/soy-based products. i don't drink diet soda's or something to make myself FEEL full. i guess the thing i am worried about is the idea that 'starvation' mode is something "i've always been taught..." like you said. it MIGHT be true, but is it REALLY? especially at moderate levels like 700-1000 calories (as opposed to eating 0-300).
  • IvoryParchment
    IvoryParchment Posts: 651 Member
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    The 1200 calories is an arbitrary number chosen for safety. Below that, it is difficult to get all the vitamins, minerals, and protein you need for minimal health. But logic should tell you that starvation mode for a 6'4" man and a 5'1" woman will be at different calorie levels. And if you don't eat sufficient nourishment, you can still have problems at higher calorie levels (eg, if you drink soda instead of having meals).

    One important thing is that to build and maintain your lean body tissues, you need enough protein, calories, vitamins and minerals. And you need all of them all at the same time. To build fat, all you need is excess calories. It's like building a house: You need all the building materials to make anything, or else all you get is a pile of junk in the front yard.

    The body does function differently at lower calorie levels. If you eat nothing but water, you will lose weight more slowly as time goes on, but you certainly won't gain any weight. Your body reduces your calorie needs by making less cholesterol, less protein, less blood hemoglobin, etc. You become less active. Look at the videos of people in refugee camps, too weak to brush away the flies. They aren't consuming many calories like that. They aren't losing weight as fast as you would predict from the calorie calculators. But they're still losing, not gaining.

    If you feel good, if you have energy, if you're not bruising or getting short of breath or losing your hair or getting puffy ankles, your metabolism is probably working normally.
  • gayatrik
    gayatrik Posts: 173
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    ok. i understand that a person's metabolism is influenced by their overall intake, but i am really confused about the whole concept of starvation mode. it seems like whenever the topic is brought up people bring up anecdotal evidence which is not helpful to me... ex) 'when i was eating less than 1200 caloreis a day, i gained weight". without knowing this person's ability to correctly calculate their intake vs exercise (etc) there are just too many variables; i dont want to base my diet around anecdotes. so if anyone is really educated on the subject i'd love some help with these questions:

    1) does starvation mode exist (where your body suddenly holds onto everything you eat and can cause you to stop losing weight/or start gaining inspite of a low calorie intake)?
    2) how low of an intake are we talking about... is it really anything below 1200?
    3) how does it work if you, say, eat 1300 calories one day, then 900 for 2 days, then 1200 the next..... how long does it take to "kick in"?
    4) is this a short term reality, or more of a concern for someone who consistently and in a long term way has maintained a very low calorie diet?
    5) i know that your metabolism slows when you arent eating anything (ex... skipping breakfast and fasting til dinner).... but what if you eat/snack consistently (like 8, 100 calorie meals paced out through the day) wouldnt that keep your metabolism strong even if you might be cutting below 1200 total?

    ok... that's it for now. I am just really confused.... i don't eat my exercise calories back.... and somedays i eat closer to 800 calories than 1200, and the whole red "starvation mode" thing makes me worry. but i ALWAYS eat if i feel hungry. i believe strongly in listening to your body--- not making it feel deprived! but do i really need to FORCE myself to add more calories when i am trying to lose weight if i am not hungry?!

    I join ur confusion club. when i diet ... I lose weight but gain equally n more faster. So even I am confused :(
  • Saffyra
    Saffyra Posts: 607 Member
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    I would like to see some more recent studies done on this-- the 1950s study is quoted in all the links I read, but nothing more current.


    good point. regardless- there may be more recent studies, but how thorough/relevant/unbiased/or extensive? it has always felt a bit like a myth to me. i mean if you're talking 1950's studies think of the inane ideas that were generally accepted facts around that time?!!! black people are less human; woman don't really have sexual needs or orgasmic possibilities.

    I guess it's not just the time period but also the fact that there's only one study.

    If you ARE looking at that study-- read the side effects that those men suffered as a result of the study. They actually began to develop anorexia-type psychological problems because of their starvation. When I first read that part of the results I was absolutely shocked. There are more problems with way under-eating than "starvation mode" whether it exists or not.

    edited for grammar *blush*

    I believe the reason there has been no subsequent starvation studies (at least in the US) is because nowdays that would be considered torture.

    I think there might have been a more recent Russian study but it was not as in depth as the 1950's one.
  • jenifer7teen
    jenifer7teen Posts: 205 Member
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    wow. that was great advice on so many levels. thanks!
  • jenifer7teen
    jenifer7teen Posts: 205 Member
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    The 1200 calories is an arbitrary number chosen for safety. Below that, it is difficult to get all the vitamins, minerals, and protein you need for minimal health. But logic should tell you that starvation mode for a 6'4" man and a 5'1" woman will be at different calorie levels. And if you don't eat sufficient nourishment, you can still have problems at higher calorie levels (eg, if you drink soda instead of having meals).

    One important thing is that to build and maintain your lean body tissues, you need enough protein, calories, vitamins and minerals. And you need all of them all at the same time. To build fat, all you need is excess calories. It's like building a house: You need all the building materials to make anything, or else all you get is a pile of junk in the front yard.

    The body does function differently at lower calorie levels. If you eat nothing but water, you will lose weight more slowly as time goes on, but you certainly won't gain any weight. Your body reduces your calorie needs by making less cholesterol, less protein, less blood hemoglobin, etc. You become less active. Look at the videos of people in refugee camps, too weak to brush away the flies. They aren't consuming many calories like that. They aren't losing weight as fast as you would predict from the calorie calculators. But they're still losing, not gaining.

    If you feel good, if you have energy, if you're not bruising or getting short of breath or losing your hair or getting puffy ankles, your metabolism is probably working normally.

    thanks!.... in summary, this is helpful. there are also more detailed articles in many of the posts throughout this thread.
  • MrsCon40
    MrsCon40 Posts: 2,351 Member
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    The truth is i am measurably getting stronger and faster and GAINING muscles, and my body still has plenty of fat to burn even if my calories are under the MFP recommendation sometimes. and once i reach my healthy goal i know i will have to slowly increase my daily intake as to not regain. ok.... i will go read some more. :)

    This is NOT the truth. you may be getting stronger but you absolutely are not gaining muscle eating at a deficit - most certainly when you are netting 800 calories.
  • thelassiemickyjames
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    I stopped losing after 2 weeks on 1200, and it was a 2 week long plateau, untill somone on here told me to eat back at least 2/3 of my exercise calories because my body was in "starvation mode". I was very skeptical but I started eating them back and immediately started losing weight again.
  • alisha232
    alisha232 Posts: 43 Member
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    This is all great information. I struggled with making my 1200 cal a day goal at first. I say the best bet is to make sure your body has the fuel it needs especially if your incorporating physical activity to your plan.
  • WonderKP
    WonderKP Posts: 146 Member
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    I don't believe there's any hard evidence of it and there's certainly no set number of minimum calories that would cause it across the board. Everyone has different bodies and metabolisms. My minimum can't possibly be the same as a man's, for example.

    That said, I like to eat. The less you eat, the less you can eat because your body will adjust to getting that number of calories. So if you under-eat to lose weight, you are likely putting yourself at risk for quick regain if/when you start to eat "normal" again.

    Further, when you under-eat, you aren't just losing fat and water. You're also losing muscle. The more muscle you lose, the slower your metabolism becomes. If you work out, you need to feed the muscles. They are what will keep your metabolism up.

    I agree completely with this!
  • lodro
    lodro Posts: 982 Member
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    http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/17/3/313.full.pdf

    however, CR puts you at 20%-30% of TDEE: usually that is well above 1200 calories/day
  • kaydensmom12
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    I don't believe there's any hard evidence of it and there's certainly no set number of minimum calories that would cause it across the board. Everyone has different bodies and metabolisms. My minimum can't possibly be the same as a man's, for example.

    That said, I like to eat. The less you eat, the less you can eat because your body will adjust to getting that number of calories. So if you under-eat to lose weight, you are likely putting yourself at risk for quick regain if/when you start to eat "normal" again.

    Further, when you under-eat, you aren't just losing fat and water. You're also losing muscle. The more muscle you lose, the slower your metabolism becomes. If you work out, you need to feed the muscles. They are what will keep your metabolism up.

    I agree with this. Of course you feel full and strong, you are used that that amount of calories.
    How are you getting all of your nutrients? Do you take a supplement that you are not logging or that I missed? With 800 calories I do not see how you are getting all of them.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    It means cutting the total caloric intake to less than 50% of what the body requires. Using myself as an example, my current weight is 178 lbs. and my bmr is 1450. So, I would have to cut my calories to below 725 per day. However, if I were at my goal weight of 150 lbs., my bmr would be 1129, and so I would have to cut my calories to below 565 calories.

    This is not borne out by the infamous Minnesota Semistarvation Study (1950), 36 young, healthy, psychologically normal men while restricting their caloric intake for 6 months. Their calories were restricted in various phases, but the least amount of calories they were allowed was 50% of the "normal" maintenance calories.

    Wish I could underline to emphasis points.

    Here is what always seems to be missed when this is brought up, and they did it exactly as it is usually done, so thank you for providing that link.

    They looked at their BMR estimates, and what 50% of that would be.

    The study had the guys reach at their lowest points 50% of their maintenance calories - you are exactly correct.

    BMR and maintenance are two entirely different things. They would be close if you were sick and bedridden.

    But these guys with known workout routines and activity levels had very tight maintenance estimates, based on very tight BMR estimates.

    To emphasis that part again, their maintenance included their exercise calories, since that is not what MFP would do here.

    And they ate 50% of those calories. And still had problems.

    So let's take this 1450 BMR and assume that is accurate. Lets say sedentary activity level, so 1.2x 1450 = 1740 maintenance.
    Now lets assume you exercise on an avg daily basis equals 500 calories, so now we have 2240 calories on what the study would call maintenance.

    Now you can compare.

    Does 50% of 2240 - 1120 calories with exercise going on sound that severe now? Remember, the exercise calories already included, unlike MFP where you must add them in and many don't.

    I know there are folks on here doing a whole lot worse than that.

    But there are a lot of folks wondering either why their weight loss stopped, they feel flabby, they gain weight with the smallest of binges, they are tired, they can't eat after working out, ect.
    And they eat 1200 calories, and they burn 500 calories, and don't eat them back.

    Big difference to that study, and yet they still had negative effects.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    The truth is i am measurably getting stronger and faster and GAINING muscles, and my body still has plenty of fat to burn even if my calories are under the MFP recommendation sometimes. and once i reach my healthy goal i know i will have to slowly increase my daily intake as to not regain. ok.... i will go read some more. :)

    This is NOT the truth. you may be getting stronger but you absolutely are not gaining muscle eating at a deficit - most certainly when you are netting 800 calories.

    Actually, you are incorrect, their observation could indeed be truth. Could be what you said too.

    You can gain muscle eating at a deficit - unless you are already trim and ripped.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447514-athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet