Dying from protein?

I'll tell my mom to check this out. Shes raves about the Dukan. But is unable to stay on it for long. She also did the Adkins. I wasn't able to myself. I want to include all food groups in my plan. Thanks for the info

i am not a fan at all of high protein and virtually carb free diets. You need carbs to help produce insulin.
They also make people incredibly miserable. Every seen an ecstatic bodybuilder??
Everything in moderation. I eat at least 2 slices of wholemeal bread every day and i am still losing the Ibs.

I didnt realise just how dangerous they could be until looking at this post

Posting this since it intrigued me, I myself don't eat tonnes of protein but I try to aim for around 100g of it (rarely hit that lol) but I read this the other day at I was shocked, I mean as the article itself says it mainly affects males but females can suffer some symptoms since they are the carries of it. Just pointing out I still like my protein regardless of this article I just think it's interesting.

So this man followed a high protein diet (link to article below) and nearly died because of it. He has OTC (ornithine transcarbamylase) deficiency, which basically means he doesn't have the enzyme needed to remove nitrogen from the body (nitrogen is a by-product of protein breaking down) and if the nitrogen isn't removed it accumulates into the form of ammonia. Ammonia is good for cleaning the skin but toxic to your brain and causes it to swell. This leads to you getting lethargic, vomiting, coma and death.

I find this so bizarre I mean it makes me wonder how many people actually have this problem and will never know unless somehow a doctor figures it out or because they themselves get very ill from eating protein. Don't mean to scare anyone off protein by posting this by the way, sorry!

Here's the article anyway if anyone is interested in reading it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/dietandfitness/9013566/The-man-who-nearly-died-on-the-Dukan-diet.html

Hey! Glad you posted this I was thinking about excess protein anyway. Just heard about this very thing in Ecology lecture, lol, so here is the summary: everyone (mammals) has excess nitrogen in the body that must be disposed of. That's what pee is. But, rather than being in the form of ammonia (NH3), excess nitrogen (N) is converted to urea (CO(NH2)2) in mammals. Normally, anyway. I was under the impression that anyone can suffer a toxic buildup of ammonia, not just people lacking OTC. It would take a lot of protein to do that, I am sure, which may be why it isn't common to hear of these things. Now I'm curious and I will ask my prof.

I'll tell my mom to check this out. Shes raves about the Dukan. But is unable to stay on it for long. She also did the Adkins. I wasn't able to myself. I want to include all food groups in my plan. Thanks for the info

I read a journal article yesterday (peer reviewed for uni) that discussed the risks of very low calorie, high protein diets for recreational weight loss. The article reviewed a cardiac arrest in a very young (~16 y/o) patient who was reportedly living off of protein for ~2 weeks. Her mom had also been on the diet.

I didn't save the article because I didn't think I would need it again (darn!) but I'll explain as well as I can (thank goodness I've had organic chemistry, lol): nitrogen (N) from proteins is unstable by itself and must bond with other elements to become a stable molecule. "Stable" meaning it is not highly reactive. (As a side note, many highly-reactive molecules are explosive. Sometimes a reactive molecule isn't bad but in this case, reactive nitrogen in the body is not good). Nitrogen has 5 electrons to share but frequently keeps 2 electrons and shares 3 with positively-charged elements ("cations"). A good example is ammonia, NH3, which the OP was talking about. However, nitrogen can also bond with potassium ions (Ka+) and calcium ions (Ca+) before leaving the body. This poor girl developed a severe deficiency in potassium (a condition called hypokalemia) which lead to heart attack.

Definitely warn your mom about too much protein but make sure you don't correlate "low carb" with "high protein"! The two are very different. A proper low carb diet (like Atkins) should have adequate protein, not high protein. If you haven't fallen asleep yet, I'll use myself as an example: I am ~121 lbs. Based on the recommended daily values of protein (which I found on the Atkins site, btw) I need ~44 grams of protein (0.36/lb). 44 grams of protein is only 176 calories. I could probably "fast" by drinking two protein shakes a day and I would live (pathetic and hungry). BUT, if I chose to eat, say, 600 calories - ALL from protein because it is satiating - I would be eating a whopping 150 grams. See the trouble? My body would have to get rid of an excess of 106 grams of protein.

People fast all the time - going without food is not usually harmful. Eating too much of something usually is.

Definitely warn your mom about too much protein but make sure you don't correlate "low carb" with "high protein"! The two are very different. A proper low carb diet (like Atkins) should have adequate protein, not high protein. If you haven't fallen asleep yet, I'll use myself as an example: I am ~121 lbs. Based on the recommended daily values of protein (which I found on the Atkins site, btw) I need ~44 grams of protein (0.36/lb). 44 grams of protein is only 176 calories. I could probably "fast" by drinking two protein shakes a day and I would live (pathetic and hungry). BUT, if I chose to eat, say, 600 calories - ALL from protein because it is satiating - I would be eating a whopping 150 grams. See the trouble? My body would have to get rid of an excess of 106 grams of protein.

I just popped over to the Atkins site to calculate myself and found a recommended protein intake of .7 grams/lb according to "conventional wisdom" which for you would be approximately 88 grams instead of 44. I then went to the University of Maryland whose calculator does not use weight (age, frame size, height, activity level). The result I got back was right in the middle of the two calculations I made using my own weight (.36 versus .7 Atkins suggestions). The CDC simply shows a table which says you and I need the same amount of protein roughly (46 grams per day) or 10-35% of dietary intake.

Go figure.

http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
http://www.healthcalculators.org/calculators/protein.asp
http://www.atkins.com/Science/Nutrition-and-Exercise/Protein.aspx

(edit to fix quote tag)

Ha! I can't believe the different protein values (ok, actually I can) - thanks for bringing that up. I'm really glad you went to three different sites. Doctors and patients alike have been arguing over RDA values for protein for a while now. The consensus, I think, is that they are too low, but by how much is still a hot topic. I prefer to compute my protein based on my lean mass (~90 lbs). I use 0.5g/lb when I am sedentary (45 grams) and 0.7 when I am very active (63 grams). I don't like "total body weight" calculations because I was waaay overfat for a while (normal weight but 31% body fat, geez!) and obviously obese people are. It doesn't make sense.

I hope I didn't sound like I was picking on the OP about protein! I don't think your levels are excessive. I'm a big nerd (duh) so I got excited when I saw your post 'cause I just had that in lecture!

i am not a fan at all of high protein and virtually carb free diets. You need carbs to help produce insulin.
They also make people incredibly miserable. Every seen an ecstatic bodybuilder??
Everything in moderation. I eat at least 2 slices of wholemeal bread every day and i am still losing the Ibs.

I didnt realise just how dangerous they could be until looking at this post

Of course you need carbs to produce insulin. Insulin is produced to utilize sugars in our blood, but it also puts your body into fat storage mode. Your body can live off of fat and protein as well as carbs and in the absence of carbs your body converts fats and proteins into glucose (well pyruvic acic which is a glucose molecule split it two). The long and short of it is that most people have no problem with this and it is rarely a problem. I think that a balanced diet is the healthiest thing, but it isn't really unhealthy to eat low carb diets.

Ha! I can't believe the different protein values (ok, actually I can) - thanks for bringing that up. I'm really glad you went to three different sites. Doctors and patients alike have been arguing over RDA values for protein for a while now. The consensus, I think, is that they are too low, but by how much is still a hot topic. I prefer to compute my protein based on my lean mass (~90 lbs). I use 0.5g/lb when I am sedentary (45 grams) and 0.7 when I am very active (63 grams). I don't like "total body weight" calculations because I was waaay overfat for a while (normal weight but 31% body fat, geez!) and obviously obese people are. It doesn't make sense.

I hope I didn't sound like I was picking on the OP about protein! I don't think your levels are excessive. I'm a big nerd (duh) so I got excited when I saw your post 'cause I just had that in lecture!

I did not read you that way at all! Who can think badly about someone excited for their college lectures!

Slightly off-topic but had to be said:
When Ron Swanson eats, it is the food that is scared.

i am not a fan at all of high protein and virtually carb free diets. You need carbs to help produce insulin.
They also make people incredibly miserable. Every seen an ecstatic bodybuilder??
Everything in moderation. I eat at least 2 slices of wholemeal bread every day and i am still losing the Ibs.

I didnt realise just how dangerous they could be until looking at this post

We don't biologically need carbs for anything...........

The whole point of higher fat, moderate protein and low carb is too keep the body from producing too much insulin. You want steady insulin, not producing insulin to address the excess carbs (sugar) in the blood stream.

Yes, I see many estatic body builders everyday.

Personally, I don't believe in moderation as our bodies are not designed to handle processed, refined and chemical filled foods.

Natural foods in the form of fat, protein, vegetables, nuts, seeds and fruit - in that order is how we are designed to eat.

i am not a fan at all of high protein and virtually carb free diets. You need carbs to help produce insulin.
They also make people incredibly miserable. Every seen an ecstatic bodybuilder??
Everything in moderation. I eat at least 2 slices of wholemeal bread every day and i am still losing the Ibs.

I didnt realise just how dangerous they could be until looking at this post

We don't biologically need carbs for anything...........

The whole point of higher fat, moderate protein and low carb is too keep the body from producing too much insulin. You want steady insulin, not producing insulin to address the excess carbs (sugar) in the blood stream.

Yes, I see many estatic body builders everyday.

Personally, I don't believe in moderation as our bodies are not designed to handle processed, refined and chemical filled foods.

Natural foods in the form of fat, protein, vegetables, nuts, seeds and fruit - in that order is how we are designed to eat.

Naturally we need Carbs for our Kidneys to function properly. Not saying you need high amounts but everything in moderation! My sister had one kidney removed as an infant. She has to have a diet high in carbs to keep the other functioning.

This is really interesting! for a long time now I have dealt with this feeling that will come and go it feels like my brain is swelling, and I can't eat resterunt humbergers cause it makes my brain feel smoshy, I know that sounds weird but its the best way I can explain it,

And recently I am looking at meat completly different, like it grosses me out, sometimes the thought of eating it grosses me out, you know how pregnant woman who are deffecaint in Vitamins will crave dirt cause they lack minerals, well I think I am getting grossed out by meat as a way my body is telling me its not good for me,

ALSO I have been having heart problems lately, sooo this is very interesting I will have to ask my doc about this, thanks for sharing

i am not a fan at all of high protein and virtually carb free diets. You need carbs to help produce insulin.
They also make people incredibly miserable. Every seen an ecstatic bodybuilder??
Everything in moderation. I eat at least 2 slices of wholemeal bread every day and i am still losing the Ibs.

I didnt realise just how dangerous they could be until looking at this post

We don't biologically need carbs for anything...........

The whole point of higher fat, moderate protein and low carb is too keep the body from producing too much insulin. You want steady insulin, not producing insulin to address the excess carbs (sugar) in the blood stream.

Yes, I see many estatic body builders everyday.

Personally, I don't believe in moderation as our bodies are not designed to handle processed, refined and chemical filled foods.

Natural foods in the form of fat, protein, vegetables, nuts, seeds and fruit - in that order is how we are designed to eat.

Naturally we need Carbs for our Kidneys to function properly. Not saying you need high amounts but everything in moderation! My sister had one kidney removed as an infant. She has to have a diet high in carbs to keep the other functioning.

There is no human biological need for carbs what so ever.

Most people I know with kidney disease and / or 1 kidney are on high fat, moderate protein, low carb (all natural foods) eating plans.

And my mom was one of those people. It is just she developed Anorexia and stopped eating all together.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110420184429.htm

I can't agree 100% about having no biological need for carbohydrates because I don't know enough about the biochemistry and physiology of metabolism - BUT - I know enough to be able to agree that carbs can be reduced in our population among certain individuals, especially diabetics. Obviously, a lot of people live with carbs in their diet, whether or not we need them.

I think it's more like, "we can obtain the glucose we need from sources other than carbohydrates and therefore may have no/reduced dependency on them".

And about what MaximalLife and others are saying about moderation, it does have truth to it and actually agrees with LC approach in this example:
2000 calories with a 50/35/15 ratio that is 250g carbs (is that still the standard recommended values/ratio?) but if calories are reduced to 1300 with the same ratio, carbs become ~163g. To go from one calorie level to another with the same ratio means reducing carbs by 87 grams, which is pretty big. For a careful dieter, reducing calories reduces carbs just like everything else. And exercise reduces effective carbohydrates even more by using glycogen more intensely. Everyone is responsible for doing their own research. If the gvmt tells me to eat carbs, I am free (thank goodness) to look into the methods of experiment on which certain recommendations are based. From there I can form my own conclusion.

Although it is possible to get one's carbs from protein - since protein is what this whole post was about - it is also possible to get too much and that raises concern for a lot of people.

Thanks for sharing, very interesting! I don't advocate any particular diet one way or the other, but I tend to eat pretty high protein and moderate carbs.

It seems like one of those strange anomalies - like people dying from swimming in freshwater lakes because an amoeba ate their brain. It happens. I guess in life you just never know

If it makes you feel any better, OTC is really quite rare. Yes dangerous but not many people would have it.