An easier way to setup goal calories - eating for who you wi

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  • KaySera
    KaySera Posts: 45 Member
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    bump! been fighting with my last 5lbs for the past 2months
  • mocorbin
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    Bump
  • slimmerchick
    slimmerchick Posts: 189 Member
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    I've started eating more (had lovely beans on toast for lunch with an egg on top) at least 200 calories more than my usual lunch of salad and now at 5.30 pm my tummy is rumbling - is that normal?
  • Pkiddy
    Pkiddy Posts: 145 Member
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    bump... need to be able to read when i can understand it all. :)
  • jsokolow3
    jsokolow3 Posts: 16 Member
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    Bump
  • jutymo
    jutymo Posts: 162 Member
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    bump
  • concealedpearl
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    Interesting, will definitely give it a try.
  • MacMadame
    MacMadame Posts: 1,893 Member
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    ]It has been proven that the slower you lose the weight the more likely you are to keep it off.
    I've never seen any proof of that. What studies have you read that show this?
    If you provide less than BMR in net calories, your body can NOT get this from itself, it will slow it down to require less.
    This is completely not true. All dieting will cause your metabolism to slow down eventually. There is no magic number of calories you can stay under and not see this effect. The longer you diet and the greater your calorie deficit, the bigger the slow down but everyone experiences a slow down especially once they lose around 10-20 pounds and have been dieting for more than a few weeks.

    That said, I agree that people with 30 pounds or less to lose should just eat the way they plan to eat for the rest of their life at the weight they want to be. It's the most sustainable way to lose weight because it teaches you how to eat and doesn't have you doing special things that you aren't willing to do forever -- like eating very low calorie and never having treats.

    However, people who are obese generally need to lose weight faster both for health reasons and because losing weight faster is more motivating (according to a recent study). They are also less likely to burn muscles instead of fat when eating at large deficits.
  • korygilliam
    korygilliam Posts: 594 Member
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    Bump to read later--thanks
  • beancurdie
    beancurdie Posts: 85 Member
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    bump
  • cptkerowyn
    cptkerowyn Posts: 6 Member
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    bump
  • Venus2011
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    bump

    thanks
  • becjerami
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    I've started eating more (had lovely beans on toast for lunch with an egg on top) at least 200 calories more than my usual lunch of salad and now at 5.30 pm my tummy is rumbling - is that normal?

    I'm not an expert but I'd guess that is completely normal. I suppose because you are eating more you've increased your metabolism and therefore more likely to feel hungry. I am doing the same thing with the same result - hungrier! But I think it's a good sign and hopefully will settle down after a few days. I've often noticed that if I go out for dinner and eat more than normal I find myself really hungry at breakfast, whereas when I'm not eating much I feel hungry for the first few days and then it settles down, I suppose because my metabolism drops. I think the eating more method is a good thing in so many ways - the trick is not to let the new hunger encourage you to completely stuff your face over your new calorie limit!
  • slimmerchick
    slimmerchick Posts: 189 Member
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    Thank you becjerami - I'm trying to be diligent with my diary and keep to my new calories so I can really test this out - it was just so weird how hungry I felt after such a substantial lunch! I'm pleased it's not just me. I remember that feeling in the morning following a big meal the night before but I always put that down to having stretched my stomach!
  • DiyyahBloom
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    Im so excited to try something new, i haven't lost wait in a couple months. At this point i will try anything!!!
  • NewTeena
    NewTeena Posts: 154 Member
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    i'm another bumper, need to read this several times to fully understand it
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    Can you just check my figures please?

    I'm 41 but 42 in April so used 42 for calc. Female
    I'm 158lbs and want to be 138lbs (Started at 190 on MFP but have got complacent since before Xmas and stayed the same weight)
    I sleep for 8 hours but watch tv for about 2-3 hours
    I work 5 days in an office
    I have 3 children under 8 years
    I run about 20-25 miles per week at approx 11 min miles (4 hours approximately per week)
    I do about 2 hours housework per week
    I am always active at the weekend, probably walk for an hour/housework for an hour/cooking/playing with kids etc. rarely sit down except when the kids go to bed.

    I used:
    Rest 10 hours
    Very light 13 hours
    Light .5
    Heavy .5

    This gave me at my current weight BMR 1453, exc cals 621 and total cals 2074. At my goal weight of 138 it gave me BMR 1367, exc cals 584 and total cals 1951.

    Compared to MFP - if I put in my current weight and click maintain weight, it gives me 2050 cals so very similar, but I have to be on ACTIVE setting to get that much. From my description above would I really be active? I would never have set myself to that on MFP, I was on sedentary at first then changed it to lightly active because I was starving!

    My new weight on MFP - gives me 1920 cals to maintain with activity level set at active.

    Is this just because MFP activity calculator isn't accurate? What cals per day do you suggest I use? Thanks a lot!!

    Also, when setting up MFP do I put my weight at what it is now or what I want it to be? If I put 158 current and 138 goal weight and set up at maintenance and cals at 1951 (as per the other website) and exercise sedentary it says I will lose minus 0.4 per week, so gain........ do I change activity level to active? If I do that then it says a loss of 0.2 lbs per week.

    Sorry, another thing! I can't seem to add exercise without adding calories on MFP it just won't do it.

    Taking this in reverse order. Oh, excellent job already on loss!

    Correct on the exercise calories. I thought I tested that out, you have to enter the big 1 calorie for it to record.

    So that you can still use the loss tracker, always keep track of your current weight. In fact, when you Check-in you can manually add other items to check, like the hrs you put at the different activity levels.
    But you can forget MFP's other automatic calculations now - they will be off.
    Because even if you set a high activity level so maintenance calories is the same, and set to maintain weight, they will be subtracting your daily calorie goal, which now contains activity in it already. So those calcs should come close to 0.
    I also think when you mess with that area, it resets your Daily Goals, I only tried once and it pissed me off after already changing a bunch of stuff. Maybe it was using their BMR calc that did it.

    This method is exactly because 4 broad levels seems to scare most folks from using anything but sedentary, and then you must record your exercise calories, hopefully accurately. Well, that is the way it suggests actually. But how close is just 4 levels, as you proved to yourself was scary.
    Plus, MFP is more than willing to take your too aggressive goal and push you a little or a lot under your BMR it calculated. Which is not good for long term weight loss.

    You didn't mention height, but I backed into 5'7" it appears, and you did a very honest evaluation, and got the math right too for weekly hrs divided by 7. You have a very nice regular probably sustainable routine.

    Using this method, you got the correct future maintenance calories of 1951, to record as your MFP manually entered Goal calories.
    Which you are probably thinking looks scary high, and not far below current maintenance estimate.
    True.
    But that site underestimates calorie burned for activities, plus you put in true Rest time, not BMR x 1.2 for everything.
    So I wouldn't be surprised if those runs burn 600-800 calories easy in reality.
    So on those days, net is now 1351 on low side, plus take out all the other activity you really do. You are likely under your future and current BMR by just a small amount, hopefully small if you were honest with levels and times.
    But a couple other days you'll safely be above it for recovery.

    So you are never riding the line below your hopeful healthy BMR, allowing it to burn as much as it can.
    And this calorie cycling, above and below BMR keeps it from settling way down for many people. So much so I've seen the calorie cycling goals. Not sure how that works easily on MFP.

    Now the only thing you have to change is your Current weight whenever.
    Your goal calories stay the same.
    You don't record exercise calories (well, 1), just time and activity, to confirm you are hitting your exercise goals you used.
    And you don't have to change the goal calories until such time as the routine really changes.
    Any little sessions of exercise thrown in every few weeks won't be bad effect.

    And when you get closer to goal weight, you'll find out if the estimated BMR figure was below or above your real healthy BMR figure. If estimate is above real, you'll stall a few lbs out. If below, you'll keep losing. Since a healthy BMR then, you can adjust safely to finish it off.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    If you provide less than BMR in net calories, your body can NOT get this from itself, it will slow it down to require less.
    This is completely not true. All dieting will cause your metabolism to slow down eventually. There is no magic number of calories you can stay under and not see this effect. The longer you diet and the greater your calorie deficit, the bigger the slow down but everyone experiences a slow down especially once they lose around 10-20 pounds and have been dieting for more than a few weeks.

    Which part not true, that your BMR will not slow down, or you can't get that energy for BMR from the body itself, or if you provide less than the BMR? I'm thinking the last by your comments.

    At the start of dieting your metabolism will slow down a tad, as you comment the amount depends on the level of constant deficit, it takes a bit to respond, so for awhile your BMR is high, you are eating lower than maintenance calorie and BMR by a little or lot. What comes next sets the stage for how it's going to keep going.
    As you verify, the BMR does lower, because it cannot get the energy needs from itself. Part of the BMR is actually feeding the muscle and fat, and moving water around through all the cells.

    There is a magic number you can stay under to not cause the BMR to lower permanently. Allowing it to pop back up to where it was once it recovers from constant shock. The amount you undercut it, as you state, determines the amount of drop. Not seen any study that nailed how long it takes. That seems to be genetic, or perhaps depending on how screwed up your metabolism is already, the observed yo-yo dieting syndrome.

    What is the magic number - Your normal daily non-exercise activity calories.

    Those type of activities that are mainly fat burning. If you don't feed that activity, it was already pulling from fat energy probably 60% of the calories needed. At that slow level, 39% glucose, rest muscle.
    You next meal just slightly over BMR will easily top off the glucose stores for the next stretch, provide some protein for repair, and some fat for immediate energy use along with excess carbs/protein.
    So not feeding that activity is not that bad.

    Sadly most people only have 300-500 of that type of activity.

    But not feeding your BMR is bad. So if it drops 200 calories worth of daily burning. Is that good or bad when your non-exercise daily activity only had 300-500? About 50%.
    And lets say you exercise on avg 500 calories a day. That 200 is almost half of your exercise, free burning all day long, every day.

    Now lets really throw a monkey wrench in and not feed that exercise. If diet alone dropped you 200 below, and now exercise unfed drops you another 500, the BMR is now making out with 700 less calories than what it could be burning. And if you keep that routine up long enough, you will lose some at first for a while, but how long until the BMR drops again for what you are constantly feeding it?

    700 calories a day lost compared to what it was burning at a healthy level. 4900 calories a week not being burned. 1.4 lbs a week.
    And since your exercise is just taking away from your body the calories for life, you aren't really burning that weight off after the BMR lowers.

    So you can keep jack-knifing that routine. Lower, lose, lower, lose, lower, lose, stall, motivation failed, eat a tad normal, big gain, aggravation, disappointment, failure, try again.

    Ugh.

    Sorry about the spiel in return to your post, it was definitely not about your post. Just read a bunch of other topics where all these misconstrued ideas just don't cause some to wake up. One poster said she was now eating 1000 daily and burned 200-300 and no eat-back, and had stopped losing about 3 weeks ago. Several follow up posters said you need to exercise more or cut a tad more out.

    Why not accomplish the same thing with as healthy a BMR as possible for as long as possible.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    I have to put a correction in.

    I thought the MFP site used the same Harris-Benedict calculation most other sites and http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/CalRequire.html uses, but I was wrong.

    Perhaps it was from the start, perhaps the changed, but I was curious in many posts where the BMR value was just slightly off by a few calories. I thought mistype was all.

    MFP uses the Mifflin calculation, which has been figured to be about 5% more accurate than the Harris method.

    So I'd suggest that when you get close to goal weight, if you seem to stall, use the MFP calculation for BMR, and ExRx for daily activity, and adjust the goal.

    Another item for figuring out those times to go in the activity levels.

    Really is easiest to add up the weeks activity and then divide by 7.
    Hours of course can be decimals for better accuracy, but when figuring it out, decimal days is valid too.
    I've been doing a few of these and wanted to throw out I thought easy method to calculate it.
    Hrs for the activity x days done, add in others of the same level. Divide by 7.

    Say you literally exercise every other day for a 90 min walk at 4mph, so the days change every other week. But that is 3.5 days a week.
    Moderate = 1.5 hrs x 3.5 days = 5.25 weekly / 7 = 0.75 daily.

    Same goes if you always do 2 long endurance cardio's a month. But that is 0.5 days a week.
    Heavy = 3 hrs x 0.5 days = 1.5 / 7 = 0.2 daily.

    Just wanted to show it's pretty easy to get pretty accurate. And if one of those long cardio's is cut to an hour. No big deal spread over 2 weeks.

    I'd suggest starting with placing the easy items first, throwing any remaining time under Very Light. This order seems easiest to me.
    The site already mentions some job types that fall in levels.

    Resting - sleeping, watching TV and movies, reading. And have to add in the weekend difference. CSI marathon junkie on Sat?

    Heavy - specific workout classes, DVD's, spin bike, treadmill, elliptical, biking, running, things harder than walking 4mph.

    Moderate - Weight training (circuit is fast paced for Heavy probably), walking fast for exercise.

    Light - walking to/from parking to work, perhaps regular time during lunch, with kids, some jobs. House chores, stores.

    Very Light - Work and commute. Doing MFP, games, poker night, and any unused hours end up here. So basically the rest first.
  • SteveTries
    SteveTries Posts: 723 Member
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    Interesting reading and the way you expain your hypothesis does seem logical. I would like to throw out a couple of challenges and see how they fare if I may.

    I'd particularly like to focus on the assertion that your body can not recover stored calories to use for BMR functions of maintaining your organs etc.

    Lets use some round numbers to make it easy.

    My maintenance level caloric need is 2500 and my BMR is 2200 and I embark on a caloric intake of 1800 over the course of say, 1 month.

    Following your theory the maximum fatloss I can expect per day is 300 calories worth (the difference between maintenance and BMR). By going 600 below maintenance I am depriving my BMR by 400 and my body is now under resourced for maintaining my internal organs by c. 20% since it cannot recover that defecit from my fat stores.

    So when I dilligently record my progress over that 1 month I should expect to see a total fat loss equivalent to 300 cals multiplied by the number of days. So 300cals X 30 days is 9000 cals total. There are 3500 cals in a pound of fat so 2.6 pounds is the maximum I can expect.

    As I would have been depriving my BMR of 20% of it's fuel for a month I should probably also expect to be feeling a little under the weather I imagine.


    So I have actually been doing the above and those figures I used aren't far off my own. The only variations are that I take one day off dieting where I eat maintenance level or above and I'm actually exercising a bit more and not eating back those calories. However my observed weight loss is 11.5 pounds. I follow a low-moderate carb regime and I know from my off-diet days (and past experience) that this type of diet causes me to drop up to 4 pounds of water. But that still leaves me with 7.5 pounds of genuine weight loss. Almost 3 times the amount I would expect following your hypothesis (if I have understood you correctly).

    I also feel very healthy, haven't been unwell during that period, have plenty of energy and are sleeping well.

    Clearly one persons experiences do not make scientific fact, but I'd be interested in your thoughts of how my observations challenge your hypothesis, or not.

    Thanks.