Why r folks so afraid of healthy debate?
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Because people can't talk about issues without separating the issue from the person. Especially online, apparently. I think the anonymity gives people an illusion of power, and they take EVERYTHING personally.0
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Might have something to do with your approach. When someone posted a "date my daughter application" as a joke you turned it into an attack on the boy scouts accusing them to be homophobic. That was meant to be a fun post not a debate. If other people are getting a laugh out of something that doesn't harm you, do you really need to be a party pooper and spoil that by creating a debate?
Time and place is everything.
Well 1st, be accurate. I was by far not the 1st to oppose the post. I was just the one people decided to focus on. And, I didn't turn it into anything. I shared information. It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. And the fatal flaw of your argument is that "the post wasn't causing harm." I have studied for years about the ill effects that discrimination causes in our society and words and jokes perpetuate attitudes. Lastly, this post is not only referring to the date application post. This post is a response to several previous personal experience in these forums as well as the way I see people treat others.
Well I personally think that your "several previous personal experience in the forum" cannt be THAT much you just joined and we are only 9 days into the month, and I assume you sleep and leave MFP once and a while.
Secondly welcome to the internet... not everyone is going to be nice... and personal attacks happen - especially if you say something that someone doesn't agree with - you may call it a personal attack, others may call it educating the masses, and some people are just down right horrible. Sarcasm does not have a font, nor does humor. So what you think if funny or sarcastic someone else may take as a horribly honest answer - NOT everyone gets sarcasm, and NOT everyone has a sense of humor.
Not all of us want a debate.0 -
Might have something to do with your approach. When someone posted a "date my daughter application" as a joke you turned it into an attack on the boy scouts accusing them to be homophobic. That was meant to be a fun post not a debate. If other people are getting a laugh out of something that doesn't harm you, do you really need to be a party pooper and spoil that by creating a debate?
Time and place is everything.
Well 1st, be accurate. I was by far not the 1st to oppose the post. I was just the one people decided to focus on. And, I didn't turn it into anything. I shared information. It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. And the fatal flaw of your argument is that "the post wasn't causing harm." I have studied for years about the ill effects that discrimination causes in our society and words and jokes perpetuate attitudes. Lastly, this post is not only referring to the date application post. This post is a response to several previous personal experience in these forums as well as the way I see people treat others.
So the mere mention of boy scouts throws you into a tantrum on homophobia? That seems a bit extreme. And how exactly does the mention of the boy scouts become discrimination in the first place?
I didn;t have a tantrum. I shared some information about the Boy Scouts.0 -
It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic.
A fact you say? What a broad brush to paint a 100 year organization.
We're a Boy Scout Family and very non-homophobic.
I didn't call your family homophobic. It is well documented that the ORGANIZATION of the Boy Scouts is.
And THIS.. is exactly why we have a debate group! Sign up now folks! Get your argue on where everyone can't click REPORT just 'cause.0 -
But just because someone doesn't agree with a lifestyle does not make them homophobic. I think you threw that term around pretty freely a few minutes ago.
Calling someone or a group associated with a large group of people Homophobic is not only a personal attack but its not even definitively correct.
Please see the definition....http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homophobia.... without resorting to nasty personal attacks on the poster.
I am sorry you can't come to terms with the fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. We will just have to agree to disagree about that and about what constitutes a personal attack because we obviously think differently.
Please stop calling my gay best friend a homophobe, lady. And an ORGANIZATION is incapable of having a phobia.....
(sriously wtf is happening here?)0 -
Stating an opinion as fact often gets people's feathers ruffled.0
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But just because someone doesn't agree with a lifestyle does not make them homophobic. I think you threw that term around pretty freely a few minutes ago.
Calling someone or a group associated with a large group of people Homophobic is not only a personal attack but its not even definitively correct.
Please see the definition....http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homophobia.... without resorting to nasty personal attacks on the poster.
I am sorry you can't come to terms with the fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. We will just have to agree to disagree about that and about what constitutes a personal attack because we obviously think differently.
So you dont understand the definition? What part?0 -
It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic.
A fact you say? What a broad brush to paint a 100 year organization.
Can I see the support for this fact? I'm trying to understand why you believe its a homophobic organization.0 -
the only thing to fear is fear itself.
oh, and Jason standing outside my bedroom window0 -
Might have something to do with your approach. When someone posted a "date my daughter application" as a joke you turned it into an attack on the boy scouts accusing them to be homophobic. That was meant to be a fun post not a debate. If other people are getting a laugh out of something that doesn't harm you, do you really need to be a party pooper and spoil that by creating a debate?
Time and place is everything.
Well 1st, be accurate. I was by far not the 1st to oppose the post. I was just the one people decided to focus on. And, I didn't turn it into anything. I shared information. It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. And the fatal flaw of your argument is that "the post wasn't causing harm." I have studied for years about the ill effects that discrimination causes in our society and words and jokes perpetuate attitudes. Lastly, this post is not only referring to the date application post. This post is a response to several previous personal experience in these forums as well as the way I see people treat others.
My roommate is an Eagle Scout and he's been out of the closet since about 1994. It may be that there are members of the board of directors that have homohobic characteristics, maybe.... but "THE BOYSCOUTS' are not an organized group of homophobic individuals- and to say that - is so generalizing and pitted against logic... I mean seriously... how can a 7 year old boy be a homophobe unless he understands what they really even means?
It is also extremely dangerous to cultivate the idea that you have 'the right to not be offended' as that has NOTHING to do with being American at all.
I have also studied the effects of what happens when people decide to give too much power to sticks and stones and not enough emphasis on emotional responsibilty, thickening their skin or choosing their battles but most importantly- understanding and teaching the next generation that Not everyone is going to like you, Not everyone is Nice and You need to learn to deal with it now... otherwise you will embrace a victim mentality and grow up to be someone that does nothing with their life because
I got picked on as a kid.
MAN UP. Take the teasing like every other generation in the past has had to do- its part of becoming socially well-rounded and self-preserving. Mama wont always be there to wipe tears when we are picked on, so we have to learn to deal with it instead of trying to stop it. It will never stop.
Guys, seriously, LOOK IT UP, the Boy Scouts discriminate. It doesn't mean that all Boy Scouts do...but it is in the organization's rules.0 -
The girl scouts wouldn't let me join when I was a younger. They are anti-men. Boycott girl scout cookies!0
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People often have very strong opinions and think their view is the only one that counts. Witness the press and outrage when Kurt Cameron said he was against same sex marriage. Was anyone surpised? The man has never hidden his stong, straight line, Christian beliefs. Piers asked the question knowing what the answer would be because he wanted to stir things up. I'm more tolerant than Mr. Cameron but I think he is entitled to his opinion and you are entitled to yours.0
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It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic.
A fact you say? What a broad brush to paint a 100 year organization.
We're a Boy Scout Family and very non-homophobic.
I didn't call your family homophobic. It is well documented that the ORGANIZATION of the Boy Scouts is.
Also since I have ties to the scouting organization and I know a few Scout executives I did a little research please link directly to the BSA current website stating what you are propagating. Direct links please not reference.0 -
People don't like to have their beliefs or ideas challenged. I'd say it's pretty much that simple.0
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except for the thin mints!!!0
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Also, just thought I should add:
There is a big difference between debating and arguing for the sake of arguing.
Debating submits facts and accepts other beliefs even if the debater disagrees.
It is not snobby or hateful.
Not to be rude, but I feel if someone is going to say
"I'm sorry /you/ can't come to terms with..."
It comes off as condescending and arguing for the sake of arguing.
And, yes, some of this can be because of a lack of vocal inflections over the internet.
However, if something can/will possibly be taken wrong (which is almost always is), it should be in one's utmost interest to make the debate as neutral sounding as possible by choosing the wording carefully.0 -
It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic.Guys, seriously, LOOK IT UP, the Boy Scouts discriminate. It doesn't mean that all Boy Scouts do...but it is in the organization's rules.
please be more consistent in your accusation of these poor little boys. They ARE. But not all of them. But its a fact that boy scouts hate gays. but not all of them. but all of them as a group. well maybe one doesnt....0 -
Might have something to do with your approach. When someone posted a "date my daughter application" as a joke you turned it into an attack on the boy scouts accusing them to be homophobic. That was meant to be a fun post not a debate. If other people are getting a laugh out of something that doesn't harm you, do you really need to be a party pooper and spoil that by creating a debate?
Time and place is everything.
Well 1st, be accurate. I was by far not the 1st to oppose the post. I was just the one people decided to focus on. And, I didn't turn it into anything. I shared information. It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. And the fatal flaw of your argument is that "the post wasn't causing harm." I have studied for years about the ill effects that discrimination causes in our society and words and jokes perpetuate attitudes. Lastly, this post is not only referring to the date application post. This post is a response to several previous personal experience in these forums as well as the way I see people treat others.
So the mere mention of boy scouts throws you into a tantrum on homophobia? That seems a bit extreme. And how exactly does the mention of the boy scouts become discrimination in the first place?
I didn;t have a tantrum. I shared some information about the Boy Scouts.
More like you shared your opinions and views on a thread that was meant to be fun. Goes back to my original point of right place and righ time. Not everyone wants to hear Keith Olbermann's Talking Points. If you want to debate the boy scouts the courteous thing to do would be for you to create your own thread instead of highjacking someone else's. Fair enough?0 -
except for the thin mints!!!
Ok. We can keep thin mints on the table... and samoas!0 -
Also, just thought I should add:
There is a big difference between debating and arguing for the sake of arguing.
Debating submits facts and accepts other beliefs even if the debater disagrees.
It is not snobby or hateful.
Not to be rude, but I feel if someone is going to say
"I'm sorry /you/ can't come to terms with..."
It comes off as condescending and arguing for the sake of arguing.
And, yes, some of this can be because of a lack of vocal inflections over the internet.
However, if something can/will possibly be taken wrong (which is almost always is), it should be in one's utmost interest to make the debate as neutral sounding as possible by choosing the wording carefully.
Are you mocking my lack of internet vocal inflection? ...No wait that was her not me.0 -
They are a private organization and have every right to disallow gays being leaders if they want to. You call it being anti-gay, I call it sticking to their principles. If they can have minority only colleges, women only gyms and male only golf clubs then BSA can say they don't want gay leaders. I don't have a problem with women having exclussive gyms or minorities having private colleges. Perhaps people who are not included in these groups should organize their own group that goes by their prefered set of moral stanandards.Might have something to do with your approach. When someone posted a "date my daughter application" as a joke you turned it into an attack on the boy scouts accusing them to be homophobic. That was meant to be a fun post not a debate. If other people are getting a laugh out of something that doesn't harm you, do you really need to be a party pooper and spoil that by creating a debate?
Time and place is everything.
Well 1st, be accurate. I was by far not the 1st to oppose the post. I was just the one people decided to focus on. And, I didn't turn it into anything. I shared information. It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. And the fatal flaw of your argument is that "the post wasn't causing harm." I have studied for years about the ill effects that discrimination causes in our society and words and jokes perpetuate attitudes. Lastly, this post is not only referring to the date application post. This post is a response to several previous personal experience in these forums as well as the way I see people treat others.
My roommate is an Eagle Scout and he's been out of the closet since about 1994. It may be that there are members of the board of directors that have homohobic characteristics, maybe.... but "THE BOYSCOUTS' are not an organized group of homophobic individuals- and to say that - is so generalizing and pitted against logic... I mean seriously... how can a 7 year old boy be a homophobe unless he understands what they really even means?
It is also extremely dangerous to cultivate the idea that you have 'the right to not be offended' as that has NOTHING to do with being American at all.
I have also studied the effects of what happens when people decide to give too much power to sticks and stones and not enough emphasis on emotional responsibilty, thickening their skin or choosing their battles but most importantly- understanding and teaching the next generation that Not everyone is going to like you, Not everyone is Nice and You need to learn to deal with it now... otherwise you will embrace a victim mentality and grow up to be someone that does nothing with their life because I got picked on as a kid.
MAN UP. Take the teasing like every other generation in the past has had to do- its part of becoming socially well-rounded and self-preserving. Mama wont always be there to wipe tears when we are picked on, so we have to learn to deal with it instead of trying to stop it. It will never stop.
Guys, seriously, LOOK IT UP, the Boy Scouts discriminate. It doesn't mean that all Boy Scouts do...but it is in the organization's rules.0 -
Fragile egos. Some people can't handle being wrong.
I make a good point here.0 -
You could simply choose to ignore those that hurl personal insults at you. Healthy debate can still happen amidst name-calling and thread derailing. Stay on point, don't get ruffled, ignore the nonsense.Why are people so afraid of healthy debate?
It is possible to debate issues without resorting to nasty personal attacks on the poster. When something really strikes me I will often share my disagreement. Sometimes with humor, sometimes with sarcasm, sometimes gently. Often, I get angry responses and I have had people then call me ugly (I now don't have a personal picture), read my bio and make fun of me for it (I no longer have a bio) and continue to attack me personally. I think it shows a lack of intelligence. Quote me all you want and disagree vehemently with the content of my ideas if you wish. It makes for interesting dialogue. However, getting irate indicates you have personal issues and character assasination is not only unproductive but also mean.
I also get amused by the scads of people who tell me I am angry because I have posted that I disagree with something. No matter how often you tell me I am angry and miserable (and all the silly things I have had said) doesn't make it true. If you are angry own it but quit accusing me. I am actually able to function in this world simultaneously holding and fighting for an array of very strong ethics, morals, and beliefs AND remain calm and be ok with the knowledge that many people disagree with me. Being "ok" doesn't mean being silent. And silent I rarely am.
I even read other people's arguments, think about them and *gasp* sometimes change my mind because I learn something. Other times, I keep my belief and I respond to discredit the argument or the idea - but not to verbally abuse the person with the idea.
Or, post a topic about your grievances in a very general way, alluding to previous posts and casting judgment on others' behavior.
I've done both. At the end of the day, one feels better than the other.0 -
Might have something to do with your approach. When someone posted a "date my daughter application" as a joke you turned it into an attack on the boy scouts accusing them to be homophobic. That was meant to be a fun post not a debate. If other people are getting a laugh out of something that doesn't harm you, do you really need to be a party pooper and spoil that by creating a debate?
Time and place is everything.
Well 1st, be accurate. I was by far not the 1st to oppose the post. I was just the one people decided to focus on. And, I didn't turn it into anything. I shared information. It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. And the fatal flaw of your argument is that "the post wasn't causing harm." I have studied for years about the ill effects that discrimination causes in our society and words and jokes perpetuate attitudes. Lastly, this post is not only referring to the date application post. This post is a response to several previous personal experience in these forums as well as the way I see people treat others.
Well I personally think that your "several previous personal experience in the forum" cannt be THAT much you just joined and we are only 9 days into the month, and I assume you sleep and leave MFP once and a while.
Secondly welcome to the internet... not everyone is going to be nice... and personal attacks happen - especially if you say something that someone doesn't agree with - you may call it a personal attack, others may call it educating the masses, and some people are just down right horrible. Sarcasm does not have a font, nor does humor. So what you think if funny or sarcastic someone else may take as a horribly honest answer - NOT everyone gets sarcasm, and NOT everyone has a sense of humor.
Not all of us want a debate.
Actually, I was so bullied in a forum that I deleted my previous account pictures and personal information so no, I have not only been here 9 days. And, I have severe and chronic insomnia and am unemployed so I am on here reading almost 24/7. Pathetic? Yes. True? Yes.0 -
Again, just because YOU believe something does not make it an unassailable FACT.
I strongly believe that unicorn farts and glitter rainbows exist, therefore, this is a FACT. Prove me wrong! Let's "debate" it!! :laugh:0 -
Guess as a Scout Leader, being privy to some negative information about Scouting, I have a different perspective.....or what I like to call, behind he headlines information.
What you read in the headlines isn't always (ok is NEVER) the whole story.
So, Guess I'm gonna need to see your "well documented facts" About 100 years worth. Not a couple of pages ripped from the paper.
Have there been some instances of negativity, absolutely. That doesn't make a Private Organization Homophobic. Yet Private Organizations are able to make their own rules. The Boy Scouts of America isn't a publicly traded company. Its a Private, Non Profit Organization, run primarily by volunteers.It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic.
A fact you say? What a broad brush to paint a 100 year organization.
We're a Boy Scout Family and very non-homophobic.
I didn't call your family homophobic. It is well documented that the ORGANIZATION of the Boy Scouts is.0 -
Might have something to do with your approach. When someone posted a "date my daughter application" as a joke you turned it into an attack on the boy scouts accusing them to be homophobic. That was meant to be a fun post not a debate. If other people are getting a laugh out of something that doesn't harm you, do you really need to be a party pooper and spoil that by creating a debate?
Time and place is everything.
Well 1st, be accurate. I was by far not the 1st to oppose the post. I was just the one people decided to focus on. And, I didn't turn it into anything. I shared information. It is a fact that the Boy Scouts are homophobic. And the fatal flaw of your argument is that "the post wasn't causing harm." I have studied for years about the ill effects that discrimination causes in our society and words and jokes perpetuate attitudes. Lastly, this post is not only referring to the date application post. This post is a response to several previous personal experience in these forums as well as the way I see people treat others.
This post is an excellent example of why "healthy debates" aren't possible on a message board. Tone is everything. Nobody said you were the first to oppose the post, so there was nothing that was inaccurate. The topic he was commenting about was from his frame of reference. It just makes you sound holier than thou. That, and what you call "facts" are anything but factual.0 -
I strongly believe that unicorn farts and glitter rainbows exist, therefore, this is a FACT. Prove me wrong! Let's "debate" it!! :laugh:
I trust you.0 -
I don't like to debate. But I had an abusive father who played devil's advocate at every turn and wouldn't let me out of the argument. It colors my view on debate.
So I resort to humor and/or sarcasm...not debate. And just agree to disagree. *shrug*0
This discussion has been closed.
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