Confused!

I didn't read it as a BMR calculation. It was stated that it was your daily requirement, then use exercise to create a deficit - there was no mention of applying a daily activity multiplier.

Maybe the original poster could clarify it for us.

I was referring to your quote when you said

That is so funny, you say BMR isn't accurate as it doesn't take many factors, such as Lean Body Mass into consideration, and then you come up with a standard one-size-fits-all calorie equation.

our weightlifting ladies who weigh around 130lbs would never survive on this - it would give them less than 1200 calories a day!

and

yes, and this one is hardly any different to the *multiply your weight in lbs by 10*.

These have to be the most innaccurate as they ignore activity levels completely.

Right, because as I said it does not figure exercise into the equation.

BMR calculators are not supposed to account for activity levels. BMR is your basal metabolic rate, the basic amount of calories your body burns to survive, with no activity included.
A TDEE, total daily energy expenditure calculator accounts for your daily activity.


Precisely.

Right. As I said, BMR can over-estimate or under-estimate caloric needs. It is not the best measuring tool available. Having VO2max is really the best tool to use, but it is quite pricey. We never use BMR alone or BMI alone or any calculation alone as it is not a true measurement in and of itself. The notion of "less than 1200 calories places the body into starvation mode" is a standardized quote for the average-height woman of 5'7". In this respect, that standardization is accurate. I am 5'8", and anything less than 1200 calories will be counterproductive for me. If your weight partners weigh 130 pounds, the notion of kg multiplied by 20 still stands, though it does not factor in for exercise, as I have said.

No. A 130 pound woman would not maintain weight at 1160 calories a day, like you stated in your first post.

130 pounds = 58kg 58*20=1160

That might be a very rough BMR estimate, but you stated they should eat that, and then would need to exercise to lose weight.

No, no. You are not understanding me. I said that her (3dogsrunning) calories would get her through the day. I then said that the calculation did not factor in exercise. If she were to exercise WHILE ON THAT CALORIC LEVEL she would lose weight. You forget that weight loss must be a combination of reduced calories AND exercise. It can't be one OR the other. Harris-Benedict equations will typically over-estimate caloric needs when compared to M-SJ. Mifflin-St. Jeor may be possibly the MOST accurate caloric calculation for obese people, but it is still JUST a guesstimate. M-SJ calculates my BMR at 1359, though I am not obese, while Harris-Benedict calculates my BEE at 1537. Ireton-Jones is for ventilator-dependent patients in ICU so that equation should be thrown out. If I took my kilograms multiplied by 20 it brings me to 1320 calories - lower even than M-SJ but a bit more accurate I would imagine. BMR is only intended to calculate energy needs while the person is in a conscious, resting state, NOT while the subject is up and moving around (hence the B for basal). It is the calculation that states "this is what the body needs MINIMALLY in order to keep itself alive with absolutely no activity involved." Activity was never part of the equation. Not one of the above equations makes room for LBM or activity level, as neither of them are designed this way. If I were to have a low-functioning thyroid, then all of these calculations would over-estimate my needs. If I were a triathalon trainer with 17% body fat then all of these calculations would grossly under-estimate my needs. None of these formulas take Thermic Effect of Food (TEF) into consideration either. If we calculated TEF with BMR we'd need to provide an additional 5-30% more calories -- quite a range! Even the standard 10% increase that is commonly used is STILL just a guesstimate. But one thing I have found is the kilograms multiplied by 20 seems to work the best...NOT factoring in exercise. For weight loss, obviously you'd need to exercise, as we ALL would, and that formula would be a caloric ceiling. For weight gain, such as the weight-lifting group of women, that calculation would estimate your MINIMUM calories needed. Even calories-burned-during-exercise calculations are guesstimates. Any other method (direct vs. indirect calorimetry) is used primarily for experimentation on athletes to measure performance levels and substrate utilization.

No calculation is ever going to be 100% accurate. I like the (kg)x(20) because it is very simple. BMR may get you the closest if you are obese (BMI of 30-39) but for the woman who took her BMR of 1640 (?) and still lowered it to 1600, you are perhaps even more accurate than the BMR calculation...and is possibly even closer to the (kg)(20) formula! I was merely trying to give 3dogsrunning a way out of her confusion - a shorter route through the forest, if you will, by offering her a more simplistic computation. In the end, she understood it to be what is is...EEN (or TDEE) and NOT a BMR.

You're contradicting yourself. Are you saying the KG*20 formula is BMR, sedentary TDEE, or what? You keep saying that KG*20 would "get you through the day" without exercise, so are you trying to say that you would maintain weight without exercise using that formula? Because that grossly underestimates my maintenance needs by almost 1000 calories without factoring exercise into the equation.

Also, the Harris-Benedict equation is not a BMR calculator, it's a TDEE calculator, you need to know your BMR to use it. The Harris-Benedict equation is BMR * Activity Factor = TDEE. Personally I use the Katch-McArdle formula to calculate BMR, as it uses lean mass, and accounts for body fat. Using your estimate gets me somewhat close to my BMR based on the Mifflin-St Jeor formula, but that certainly wouldn't "get me through the day," even without exercising. Also, TEF is included in the Harris-Benedict equation, it's already factored in, and it isn't even close to factored into the formula you gave.

It's not that I don't understand, it's just that you aren't really making much sense. I guess the part I have a problem with is you trying to say your formula is more accurate than these other formulas, when it's not even close.

No, I am not contradicting myself, and no. Harris-Benedict does not - in ANY way - include TEF in its formula. TEF is a completely separate equation from Harris-Benedict or any other equation! The (kg)(20) is, I'll say it again, NOT a BMR calculation. If you are using M-SJ then you are using a formula for an obese person. Are you obese? If your BMI is between 30-39, then yes you are, and the calculations you are using may be somewhat correct for your size. You said my calculation grossly underestimates your needs by a whopping 1000 calories. Wow. Really? 1000?? How many calories did the BMR or M-SJ or H-B formulations put you on for MAINTENANCE that mine underestimated by nearly A THOUSAND CALORIES??

You keep telling me that H-B is not a BMR calculator. In fact, both Harris-Benedict and Mifflin-St Jeor computations are for BMR. The goal is to calculate your energy needs ABOVE that in order to get an idea of the KINETIC kcals needed to get you through a full day. For either equation, you are required to plug-in your stress level and activity level in order to get the calories needed for an entire 24-hour period. 24 hours include sleep (rest), so yes, it calculates BMR.

My BMR calculates to 1390. According to M-SJ, my REE (BMR) is 1359 and my energy needs are a whopping 2174 (keeping in mind that M-SJ is used for obese people, which I am not). H-B calculates my BEE (BMR) at 1397 and calorie needs as an astounding 2236! If I ate that many kcals in a day I'd weigh over 300 pounds! However, my (kg)(20) calories/kg gives me 1320 calories, though I eat more like 1400. Hardly a near-1000 calorie deficit from either BMR estimate!

My averaged BMR is 1382. I ingest 1400 kcals on days I work out, so I am utilizing a total of 2782 kcals in a full 24-hour period. Add about 500 kcals burned from my daily exercise routines and I have utilized 3282 kcals in total. Viola! Negative energy balance and weight loss of 1 pound per week! Not bad.

Not to sound rude but you appear to be a large woman if your kcals needs are estimated as high as you claim in order for my calculation to give you such a deficit! Excessively heavy people will naturally have a much greater BMR because the body requires much greater effort and velocity to move blood and oxygen through that pressing weight while at rest. That uses far more energy than someone with a smaller frame. So if you are a much heavier person than me you should be utilizing far more kcals than me! You should be seeing 2 pounds less of yourself per week on the scale for awhile. If you are not seeing this then your energy need calculations are wrong. If you are seeing more than this, then kudos! You are a Workout Queen! :flowerforyou: Take care, though, to eat enough protein in order to support that rapid rate of loss. Metabolism thrives in muscle tissue. If your protein intake is too little you will lose a lot of muscle to feed your tissues, and your metabolic rate will decrease as you lose mitochondria.

You're contradicting yourself. Are you saying the KG*20 formula is BMR, sedentary TDEE, or what? You keep saying that KG*20 would "get you through the day" without exercise, so are you trying to say that you would maintain weight without exercise using that formula? Because that grossly underestimates my maintenance needs by almost 1000 calories without factoring exercise into the equation.

Also, the Harris-Benedict equation is not a BMR calculator, it's a TDEE calculator, you need to know your BMR to use it. The Harris-Benedict equation is BMR * Activity Factor = TDEE. Personally I use the Katch-McArdle formula to calculate BMR, as it uses lean mass, and accounts for body fat. Using your estimate gets me somewhat close to my BMR based on the Mifflin-St Jeor formula, but that certainly wouldn't "get me through the day," even without exercising. Also, TEF is included in the Harris-Benedict equation, it's already factored in, and it isn't even close to factored into the formula you gave.

It's not that I don't understand, it's just that you aren't really making much sense. I guess the part I have a problem with is you trying to say your formula is more accurate than these other formulas, when it's not even close.

No, I am not contradicting myself, and no. Harris-Benedict does not - in ANY way - include TEF in its formula. TEF is a completely separate equation from Harris-Benedict or any other equation! The (kg)(20) is, I'll say it again, NOT a BMR calculation. If you are using M-SJ then you are using a formula for an obese person. Are you obese? If your BMI is between 30-39, then yes you are, and the calculations you are using may be somewhat correct for your size. You said my calculation grossly underestimates your needs by a whopping 1000 calories. Wow. Really? 1000?? How many calories did the BMR or M-SJ or H-B formulations put you on for MAINTENANCE that mine underestimated by nearly A THOUSAND CALORIES??

You keep telling me that H-B is not a BMR calculator. In fact, both Harris-Benedict and Mifflin-St Jeor computations are for BMR. The goal is to calculate your energy needs ABOVE that in order to get an idea of the KINETIC kcals needed to get you through a full day. For either equation, you are required to plug-in your stress level and activity level in order to get the calories needed for an entire 24-hour period. 24 hours include sleep (rest), so yes, it calculates BMR.

My BMR calculates to 1390. According to M-SJ, my REE (BMR) is 1359 and my energy needs are a whopping 2174 (keeping in mind that M-SJ is used for obese people, which I am not). H-B calculates my BEE (BMR) at 1397 and calorie needs as an astounding 2236! If I ate that many kcals in a day I'd weigh over 300 pounds! However, my (kg)(20) calories/kg gives me 1320 calories, though I eat more like 1400. Hardly a near-1000 calorie deficit from either BMR estimate!

My averaged BMR is 1382. I ingest 1400 kcals on days I work out, so I am utilizing a total of 2782 kcals in a full 24-hour period. Add about 500 kcals burned from my daily exercise routines and I have utilized 3282 kcals in total. Viola! Negative energy balance and weight loss of 1 pound per week! Not bad.

Not to sound rude but you appear to be a large woman if your kcals needs are estimated as high as you claim in order for my calculation to give you such a deficit! Excessively heavy people will naturally have a much greater BMR because the body requires much greater effort and velocity to move blood and oxygen through that pressing weight while at rest. That uses far more energy than someone with a smaller frame. So if you are a much heavier person than me you should be utilizing far more kcals than me! You should be seeing 2 pounds less of yourself per week on the scale for awhile. If you are not seeing this then your energy need calculations are wrong. If you are seeing more than this, then kudos! You are a Workout Queen! :flowerforyou: Take care, though, to eat enough protein in order to support that rapid rate of loss. Metabolism thrives in muscle tissue. If your protein intake is too little you will lose a lot of muscle to feed your tissues, and your metabolic rate will decrease as you lose mitochondria.

Well, first off, I'm a man, not a woman. I weigh 208 pounds with 16% body fat. Katch-McArdle gives me a BMR of 2029 and a maintenance need of 2699, not including exercise. Using your KG*20 formula I'm given 1880, which would cause me to lose almost 2 pounds a week, even without exercise.

Also, where did you get this idea that Mifflin-St Jeor is supposed to be for obese people?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2305711
It has nothing to do with obese or not obese, it was created using a base of normal weight and obese people and is a formula for predicting BMR in healthy people. Are you just making this up as you go along?

As for whether TEF is included in Harris-Benedict, yes it is. It's included in the activity factor. The Activity factor includes all calories for maintenance needs. You multiply your BMR by an activity factor based on your level of daily activity, and it gives you total maintenance calories, which includes TEF.