Please explain to me

So self-loathing isn't the rule of being transgendered.

Oh, I wasn't saying that it was the rule, but I'm concerned for those that do. The decision to transition is a big one, and it shouldn't be entered into unless the individual is completely certain that it is what they want.

The couple of people I know that underwent male to female, had to live one hundred percent as a female for some time period. A year was the minimum I think.

Actually, make that one who underwent, and one who backed out but continues to live as a female. She made the choice to keep the bits for a while because the surgery was so expensive.

But we expect people with body dysmorphia to get counseling to correct their line of thinking and tell them that they are wrong for thinking that way. However, if someone expresses a similar sentiment to someone who is transgender, then they are bashed and deemed hateful.

I don't know if it was your intent, but this response came across as locked and loaded. Like you started this topic ready to present this argument. And that's not really how you presented your original post. So I felt set up in a way.

I also think that as someone who has been here a year with well over 4,000 posts, you'd know a topic like this has little chance for "respectful, intelligent, and rational discussion" in the Chit-chat, fun and games section of the forum.

I don't know you or your posts well enough to judge your motives, but I am pointing out some things that could be perceived as ulterior.

I know her I dont think it was posted with ulterior motives.

Added another link to my post above, a lot of stuff from one of the authors mentioned on the page before

For the record, I don't think the OP was intending to cause trouble with this post, i didn't see it that way anyway. Although I can see it is a somewhat dismissive way to phrase a topic. Possibly this is more to do with the OP's lack of knowledge on the subject than it is to do with her attitude toward it?

I'm certainly not a scientist, but I have studied psychology, and I do know that different types of disordered thinking takes on a very similar appearance in the brain physiologically. It would be interesting to know the similarities and differences that these different types of thinking can take in the brain. I'm not trying to say that transgenderism can be cured, but if we do not consider it disorder thinking, then what exactly is it.

Just curiosity really.

It's being born into the wrong body. I have a really hard time believing that you are truly being inquisitive, where did you study psychology? Do you have a degree or just take a few classes, because I would be surprised if you has a psych degree and hadn't studied the differences.

Also, transgenderism isn't a disease, it doesn't need to be cured. It's not a disorder, it doesn't need to be fixed. It's a person who was born into the wrong body, or who simply doesn't identify with their parts. Most of the trans(genders/sexual) people I know who have had the surgery love the changes body, those who they never transitioned because they were comfortable in their body, they might pack or bind, but they are comfortable with their body as is. A few have told me that as teens they hated their body, but who doesn't? They may not have identified with their genitalia but they didn't see it and think it was something else.

I disagree that its not a disorder. It is a disorder. How does one get born into the wrong body without being disordered? Where is the connection between the body and the gender identity? Is it hormones is it in the brain?

However I don't think it should be treated like other disorders, because I don't think it can be treated successfully with traditional methods. I do think the best treatment is the one that lets them act out the gender identity they have by either cross-dressing or getting the surgery. If that makes them happy there is no reason to turn then 'normal'.

The argument as to whether transgenderism is a disorder/ not a disorder is pointless. There is no overall academic consensus on this point, and there is support/ evidence against both sides.

The best anyone can do is educate themselves on the topic, and remain open minded and respectful.

I would however, suggest that anyone using the term "normal/ abnormal" challenge their knowledge of this term, since normal is entirely relative, and there is in fact no universal barometer for what is correct behaviour.

I'm certainly not a scientist, but I have studied psychology, and I do know that different types of disordered thinking takes on a very similar appearance in the brain physiologically. It would be interesting to know the similarities and differences that these different types of thinking can take in the brain. I'm not trying to say that transgenderism can be cured, but if we do not consider it disorder thinking, then what exactly is it.

Just curiosity really.

It's being born into the wrong body. I have a really hard time believing that you are truly being inquisitive, where did you study psychology? Do you have a degree or just take a few classes, because I would be surprised if you has a psych degree and hadn't studied the differences.

Also, transgenderism isn't a disease, it doesn't need to be cured. It's not a disorder, it doesn't need to be fixed. It's a person who was born into the wrong body, or who simply doesn't identify with their parts. Most of the trans(genders/sexual) people I know who have had the surgery love the changes body, those who they never transitioned because they were comfortable in their body, they might pack or bind, but they are comfortable with their body as is. A few have told me that as teens they hated their body, but who doesn't? They may not have identified with their genitalia but they didn't see it and think it was something else.

I disagree that its not a disorder. It is a disorder. How does one get born into the wrong body without being disordered? Where is the connection between the body and the gender identity? Is it hormones is it in the brain?

However I don't think it should be treated like other disorders, because I don't think it can be treated successfully with traditional methods. I do think the best treatment is the one that lets them act out the gender identity they have by either cross-dressing or getting the surgery. If that makes them happy there is no reason to turn then 'normal'.

The suggestion that they are abnormal is offensive. This is a phenomenon that has existed for centuries, people have been born into the incorrect body for eons. It happens in the womb and when sex organs are being formed, they all start the same, yet sometimes when the child is born it is with a reproductive system that does not match their identity.

The point is, it doesn't really matter what you think, or how much psychology you've "studied" (I still laugh at the thought that two classes really counts as "studying pyschology" its a requirement, and not enough to truly delve into the areas that make us who we are, alas...) what does matter is that you respect people and use the pronouns they prefer, even if you don't understand why. Maybe the OP should talk to someone who is transgender/sexual and then she'll get it.

My hypothesis is that they are generally completely different outlooks, but that there may be crossovers.

For instance, it would be BDD if a transgendered person absolutely loathes and hates their secondary sexual characteristics that do not coincide with their self-image

but I don't think it would be BDD without extreme body hatred. The one transgendered friend I have does not hate his body at all.

Yes, but many transgender continue with their own feelings of self-loathing years after completing their transition.

I know a few trrans people and even just wearing females clothes and changing their name and putting on makeup can be healing to them, and having others call them by their new name. When they get the surgeries needed, they feel absolutely normal, but I don't know all the trans people of the world, so i can't speak for all, just the ones i do know

GID vs. BDD
A Comparison of Gender Identity Disorder and Body Dysmorphic Disorder

Another psychological disorder that may be confused with Gender Identity Disorder, especially by a mental health caregiver not well-versed in gender problems, is Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD).

BDD occurs when a person become preoccupied with an imagined physical defect in their appearance, or a greatly exaggerated concern about a minor defect. This preoccupation must cause significant impairment in the individuals life, and they have to fret over it for at least an hour a day (under the clinical definition in the DSM-IV). Some other behaviors associated with BDD include:

Checking appearance in reflective surfaces frequently
Picking at their skin
Avoiding mirrors or reflective surfaces altogether
Repeated requests for reassurance that the defect is either REAL or is NOT real
Elaborate grooming "rituals."
Camouflaging some aspects of one's appearance with hats, one's hand, or makeup
Repeated touching of the perceived defect
Avoiding social situations where the "defect" may be seen by others
Anxiety and paranoia around other people

Most often BDD is an obsessive concern about one's face, hair, or smell. It usually begins to manifest during adolescence, becomes a chronic obsession, and leads to a great deal of internal unhappiness with one's self.

People with BDD fear ridicule in social situations, and may consult many different doctors - especially specialists like dermatologists and plastic surgeons. Many BDD sufferers will undergo risky and painful medical procedures in an attempt to eradicate the "defect" they believe exists. However, this often only makes the problem worse, or they start obsessing about some OTHER perceived defect they believe is in need of correction. BDD can often lead to social isolation, unnecessary surgical procedures, depression, and suicide.

BDD is often associated with other disorders like social phobias, Obsessive Compulsive Disorders (OCD), and delusions - in which case it is reclassified as a "Delusional Disorder." Delusions often take the form of Bromosis, which is an obsessive concern about body odor, or Parasitosis - a belief of fear that one is "infested" with parasites.

Mild dissatisfaction with one's appearance is NOT classified as BDD. 30-40% of Americans feel dissatisfied with their appearance, and intermittently have anxiety or depression over the dissatisfaction. BDD is chronic and much more intense.

BDD sufferers often don't want to undergo psychiatric treatment, because they firmly believe their "defect" has a physiological origin.

So far, you may be thinking that Gender Identity Disorder sounds pretty much like the same thing. But, again, one of the key differences is the fact that BDD responds to psychopharmacology, whereas GID does not. Treatment for BDD often involves the use of SSRI medications like Sertaline or Fluoxetine. Furthermore, psychotherpy is often successful in convincing the BDD sufferer that their perceptions are distorted. Those with GID are rarely convinced they are mistaken. GID (especially "transsexualism") also often manifests during early childhood, rather than during adolescence.

This comparison demonstrates why it is so VITAL that a person seek psychiatric care from a therapist well-versed in treating gender problems. A non-specialist may erroneously believe someone with GID is suffering from BDD. This could lead to the administration of drug therapies that are unnecessary and will be ineffective, and attempts to dissuade the person from seeking "surgical correction" for their problem. It is standard practice in treating BDD to convince sufferers that surgical procedures are not necessary, whereas those people properly diagnosed as "transsexual" under GID benefit greatly from surgical procedures.

Further confusing things is the possibility that a person with GID may also develop BDD as they obsess over those perceived "defects" on their body that contradict their gender identity. Again, this is why a trained gender specialist should treat a person suffering from Gender Identity Disorder - to avoid confusing the underlying problem with other or related psychological problems. Unless the underlying GID is addressed, the person will not "get better."

This is, incidentally, why many psychotherapists specializing in gender problems insist on addressing the peripheral problems first. If the gender dysphoria wasn't actually present, but was a delusion caused by one or more of the other problems, correcting the peripheral problems FIRST would make the "delusional GID" dissipate as well. If the peripheral problems are conventionally treated, and the gender dysphoria persists, then a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder may be rendered. This can often feel frustrating to a GID patient who begins to feel his or her therapist is "gatekeeping" them from gender transition while treating peripheral problems and waiting to see if the GID subsides as well. Unfortunately, some doctors WILL use treating peripheral problems as an excuse to keep the patient from beginning transition, sometimes because of a personal agenda or a misplaced "sense of morality." It is up to the patient, as a health care consumer, to decide whether or not to "fire" a therapist and seek help elsewhere.

http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/BDD.htm


The original article has some spelling errors, and I think I've corrected most of them, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a great explanation of the difference between BDD and GID.

GID vs. BDD
A Comparison of Gender Identity Disorder and Body Dysmorphic Disorder

Another psychological disorder that may be confused with Gender Identity Disorder, especially by a mental health caregiver not well-versed in gender problems, is Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD).

BDD occurs when a person become preoccupied with an imagined physical defect in their appearance, or a greatly exaggerated concern about a minor defect. This preoccupation must cause significant impairment in the individuals life, and they have to fret over it for at least an hour a day (under the clinical definition in the DSM-IV). Some other behaviors associated with BDD include:

Checking appearance in reflective surfaces frequently
Picking at their skin
Avoiding mirrors or reflective surfaces altogether
Repeated requests for reassurance that the defect is either REAL or is NOT real
Elaborate grooming "rituals."
Camouflaging some aspects of one's appearance with hats, one's hand, or makeup
Repeated touching of the perceived defect
Avoiding social situations where the "defect" may be seen by others
Anxiety and paranoia around other people

Most often BDD is an obsessive concern about one's face, hair, or smell. It usually begins to manifest during adolescence, becomes a chronic obsession, and leads to a great deal of internal unhappiness with one's self.

People with BDD fear ridicule in social situations, and may consult many different doctors - especially specialists like dermatologists and plastic surgeons. Many BDD sufferers will undergo risky and painful medical procedures in an attempt to eradicate the "defect" they believe exists. However, this often only makes the problem worse, or they start obsessing about some OTHER perceived defect they believe is in need of correction. BDD can often lead to social isolation, unnecessary surgical procedures, depression, and suicide.

BDD is often associated with other disorders like social phobias, Obsessive Compulsive Disorders (OCD), and delusions - in which case it is reclassified as a "Delusional Disorder." Delusions often take the form of Bromosis, which is an obsessive concern about body odor, or Parasitosis - a belief of fear that one is "infested" with parasites.

Mild dissatisfaction with one's appearance is NOT classified as BDD. 30-40% of Americans feel dissatisfied with their appearance, and intermittently have anxiety or depression over the dissatisfaction. BDD is chronic and much more intense.

BDD sufferers often don't want to undergo psychiatric treatment, because they firmly believe their "defect" has a physiological origin.

So far, you may be thinking that Gender Identity Disorder sounds pretty much like the same thing. But, again, one of the key differences is the fact that BDD responds to psychopharmacology, whereas GID does not. Treatment for BDD often involves the use of SSRI medications like Sertaline or Fluoxetine. Furthermore, psychotherpy is often successful in convincing the BDD sufferer that their perceptions are distorted. Those with GID are rarely convinced they are mistaken. GID (especially "transsexualism") also often manifests during early childhood, rather than during adolescence.

This comparison demonstrates why it is so VITAL that a person seek psychiatric care from a therapist well-versed in treating gender problems. A non-specialist may erroneously believe someone with GID is suffering from BDD. This could lead to the administration of drug therapies that are unnecessary and will be ineffective, and attempts to dissuade the person from seeking "surgical correction" for their problem. It is standard practice in treating BDD to convince sufferers that surgical procedures are not necessary, whereas those people properly diagnosed as "transsexual" under GID benefit greatly from surgical procedures.

Further confusing things is the possibility that a person with GID may also develop BDD as they obsess over those perceived "defects" on their body that contradict their gender identity. Again, this is why a trained gender specialist should treat a person suffering from Gender Identity Disorder - to avoid confusing the underlying problem with other or related psychological problems. Unless the underlying GID is addressed, the person will not "get better."

This is, incidentally, why many psychotherapists specializing in gender problems insist on addressing the peripheral problems first. If the gender dysphoria wasn't actually present, but was a delusion caused by one or more of the other problems, correcting the peripheral problems FIRST would make the "delusional GID" dissipate as well. If the peripheral problems are conventionally treated, and the gender dysphoria persists, then a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder may be rendered. This can often feel frustrating to a GID patient who begins to feel his or her therapist is "gatekeeping" them from gender transition while treating peripheral problems and waiting to see if the GID subsides as well. Unfortunately, some doctors WILL use treating peripheral problems as an excuse to keep the patient from beginning transition, sometimes because of a personal agenda or a misplaced "sense of morality." It is up to the patient, as a health care consumer, to decide whether or not to "fire" a therapist and seek help elsewhere.

Great!