are good FATS good for LOSING FAT?!

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  • beckybrouse
    beckybrouse Posts: 6 Member
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    Check out this YouTube - > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6pLRdawBw0 which is a presentation from the renowned Dr. Esselstyn.

    Evidence is interesting that we should not ingest ANY oils. This is not an extreme idea but it does go against mainstream habits and life styles. This presentation also focuses on animal protein and the research suggests animal protein is sabotaging our bodies.

    I'm searching healthy living just as you are. It can become overwhelming and a lot to consider. My best to you!
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    Esselstyn is a moron.
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    I'm not as convinced about this "can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time" mantra. For muscle gain, you need 1) a stimulus (like weight training) and 2) available raw materials. Fat loss is the result of eating a calorie deficit...however, that deficit includes activity the body does *such as building muscle* if it perceives it is needed (in response to that stimulus). You can lose a remarkable amount of fat (and other weight) in a short amount of time. Building muscle is necessarily and relatively slow.

    For example, losing TEN pounds of fat in two months is nothing shocking...but over that same period, gaining even TWO pounds of muscle is phenomenal. In fact, I don't think the average person even notices the muscle gain in this scenario. Eventually, they stop losing fat so quickly and then notice the muscle gain and deduce that it was linear...that they lost fat THEN gained muscle. I say, they were more likely doing both at the same time but only noticed the muscle gain after the fat loss.

    I'm being lazy and not providing any cites for my position...so I'll just call it my opinion (at least until someone being less lazy than me right now provides some support). The good news is, if this was the only thing people ever disagreed about re diets, the world would be a happy place.

    And yes, keep eating those healthy fats. They provide benefits beyond just their calories.

    And here's a smiley, because I've heard that these help people not to think I'm a jerk: :smile:
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    Outside of newbie gains, you cannot gain muscle without a caloric surplus.
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
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    Outside of newbie gains, you cannot gain muscle without a caloric surplus.

    Dude what's the use. People can't grasp simple biology.
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    Outside of newbie gains, you cannot gain muscle without a caloric surplus.

    Well, I disagree based primarily on the position that building muscle is one of the expenditures of energy of the body involved in the overall calculation of the calorie deficit needed to lose fat. Just my opinion (and admittedly, your side of this argument certainly seems to have greater CW support. I'm just saying that CW is wrong about this.)
  • hkatrobos
    hkatrobos Posts: 49
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    i DO eat fat. i DO know the difference between healthy fats and unhealthy fats (if you read my original post you'd see what fats i consume the most) i am cool with fat, folks...

    i guess my question is not clearly stated and i wasn't really thinking of losing actual fat WEIGHT just overall BF% sorry for the wrong post description....

    also, these answers would make more sense if you guys actually checked my diary before posting and saw that i eat 100+ grams of protein a day and about 50 grams of fat a day ... i'm not worried about carbs. i lift heavy a couple days a week do body weight exercises and cardio.

    i would just like to know if 50 grams of fat a day is too low or too high for me to accomplish lowering BF% or if it makes a difference at all....
  • ciordia9
    ciordia9 Posts: 7
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    The body is a thermodynamic machine that watches trends. To gain a healthy amount of muscle requires a higher volume of nutrient to be in the stream for an extended period of time. When I was bodybuilding during gain seasons I'd eat over 5000 calories and a chunk of proteins etc to have available during german volume training. Then you switch your program during the late winter early fall to cutting and remove all the excess that built along with muscle.

    It's all availability. Just eating protein doesn't give you mass, stripping down your muscle and having all the necessary nutrient there for rebuilding over and over is required. If you are trying to lose fat you are trying to deficit these ideas aka counterproductive. Many thread commenters are spot on this logic. It's a simple assertion that while you may gain some muscle during a loss period you will not gain nearly as much as if you were trying to heartily gain.

    Now for this poster, the beginning of the thread, she may not want more than what can be gained during a cut cycle. I don't recall hearing the real goals of bf% loss and lean mass gain. If they are within tolerance it may be feasible. Otherwise, cut now for the summer and make your lean mass goals for the winter. Cut it back down during the late season and you'll be right where you want to be next Spring/Summer.

    None of this is new logic but has been tested for decades by those in bb'ing.
  • Captain_Tightpants
    Captain_Tightpants Posts: 2,215 Member
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    The only fats you should avoid are trans fats.

    All others (sat, polyunsat, monounsat) are fine. So long as you fit them into your daily calorie allowance you will lose fat.
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    Outside of newbie gains, you cannot gain muscle without a caloric surplus.

    Well, I disagree based primarily on the position that building muscle is one of the expenditures of energy of the body involved in the overall calculation of the calorie deficit needed to lose fat. Just my opinion (and admittedly, your side of this argument certainly seems to have greater CW support. I'm just saying that CW is wrong about this.)

    Who the hell is CW?
  • Boomer1946
    Boomer1946 Posts: 124
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    I prefer to count fat calories. My fat calories needs to be equal to or less than 20% of my calories. I use this formula. Since there are 9 calories in a gram of fat, I multiply 9 x Fat Grams = Calories From Fat. This works for me.

    :smile:
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
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    Outside of newbie gains, you cannot gain muscle without a caloric surplus.

    Well, I disagree based primarily on the position that building muscle is one of the expenditures of energy of the body involved in the overall calculation of the calorie deficit needed to lose fat. Just my opinion (and admittedly, your side of this argument certainly seems to have greater CW support. I'm just saying that CW is wrong about this.)

    Please explain yourself. First, who is CW? And second, how are you able to grow and build new tissue without energy?

    We can start off with that.
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    Outside of newbie gains, you cannot gain muscle without a caloric surplus.

    Well, I disagree based primarily on the position that building muscle is one of the expenditures of energy of the body involved in the overall calculation of the calorie deficit needed to lose fat. Just my opinion (and admittedly, your side of this argument certainly seems to have greater CW support. I'm just saying that CW is wrong about this.)

    Who the hell is CW?

    My apologies. CW = conventional wisdom.

    And to the points that you don't gain muscle mass quickly when simultaneously losing fat, I agree. You also don't gain muscle mass quickly when *not* simultaneously losing fat either. This distinction is difficult (impossible) to discern for n=1 given the multiple variables in play. And yes, there are studies that support your arguments, and there are also studies that support mine. I suppose the difference is that we reconcile these seemingly irreconcilable differences differently.

    Regardless, I believe the answer is 42...that's how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...and anyone who doesn't agree with me is a buffoon.
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    Please show us the studies that support your argument :glasses: .
  • hkatrobos
    hkatrobos Posts: 49
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    tyring to figure this one out....

    most of my fat comes from avacados, salmon, nuts, coconut oil and sometimes bacon :tongue: etc

    i'm trying to build muscle and lower BF%

    how many grams are ideal for 24 y/o F, 5'7", 130 lbs?! <====================== ANYBODY?????????????????????????????????????????

    am i consuming too much? too little?

    open diary
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,020 Member
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    Outside of newbie gains, you cannot gain muscle without a caloric surplus.

    Well, I disagree based primarily on the position that building muscle is one of the expenditures of energy of the body involved in the overall calculation of the calorie deficit needed to lose fat. Just my opinion (and admittedly, your side of this argument certainly seems to have greater CW support. I'm just saying that CW is wrong about this.)

    Who the hell is CW?

    My apologies. CW = conventional wisdom.

    And to the points that you don't gain muscle mass quickly when simultaneously losing fat, I agree. You also don't gain muscle mass quickly when *not* simultaneously losing fat either. This distinction is difficult (impossible) to discern for n=1 given the multiple variables in play. And yes, there are studies that support your arguments, and there are also studies that support mine. I suppose the difference is that we reconcile these seemingly irreconcilable differences differently.

    Regardless, I believe the answer is 42...that's how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...and anyone who doesn't agree with me is a buffoon.
    With that logic, how could you be wrong.
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    Outside of newbie gains, you cannot gain muscle without a caloric surplus.

    Well, I disagree based primarily on the position that building muscle is one of the expenditures of energy of the body involved in the overall calculation of the calorie deficit needed to lose fat. Just my opinion (and admittedly, your side of this argument certainly seems to have greater CW support. I'm just saying that CW is wrong about this.)

    Please explain yourself. First, who is CW? And second, how are you able to grow and build new tissue without energy?

    We can start off with that.

    CW = conventional wisdom...(which, ironically, I thought was CW itself).

    The energy necessary to build the muscle comes from food and from the body's utilization of fat, which is why the body put the fat there in the first place: to meet its energy needs. In the case at hand, one of those energy demands is creation of additional muscle as a response to recurring stimulus.

    Again, just my opinion based on my reading of the literature available. No qualms whatsoever if I'm eventually proven wrong, I just don't believe we've definitively reached that conclusion yet.
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    tyring to figure this one out....

    most of my fat comes from avacados, salmon, nuts, coconut oil and sometimes bacon :tongue: etc

    i'm trying to build muscle and lower BF%

    how many grams are ideal for 24 y/o F, 5'7", 130 lbs?! <====================== ANYBODY?????????????????????????????????????????

    am i consuming too much? too little?

    open diary

    hkatro. No one can help you until you define your goal.
  • hkatrobos
    hkatrobos Posts: 49
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    not sure why this has turned into a meat head spat..... simple question. simple answers please. not looking for your theories or meathead spats.
  • hkatrobos
    hkatrobos Posts: 49
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    okay my goal is to lower BF%... to what? i don't care as long as it continues to lower and i feel satisfied and healthier

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