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Info on using Creatine, Glutamine, and Protein
DaSavedSinner
Posts: 211 Member
I wanted to share this info, I thought it was a good article. I personally only use Whey protein for POST-workout recovery but that is the most important one to do since w'o that postworkout protein boost your muscle usually get sore quick.
As soon as Our car is fixed (hoping soon) and I can get back on my workout routine I plan to start using all three of these supplements as a regular part of my workout routine.
Copied From http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lebrun19.htm
As soon as Our car is fixed (hoping soon) and I can get back on my workout routine I plan to start using all three of these supplements as a regular part of my workout routine.
Copied From http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lebrun19.htm
Creatine, Glutamine, and Protein Supplement Consumption Timing
Here are the best times to take these 3 proven supplements:
Creatine
Best taken 1/2 hour or so BEFORE a workout and again RIGHT after a workout.
What I do is take a creatine/juice/protein drink about a half hour before a workout and than another shake right after.
This "bracketing" technique helps set up an anabolic (muscle-building) state for your muscles and helps prevent muscle breakdown from a workout (catabolism).
Other than these 2 opportune times, you can add another creatine serving or two any time throughout the day.
I usually recommend 25 to 30 grams of creatine on a loading phase and 10-20 grams a day on a maintenance phase.
Glutamine
Definitely take glutamine right before bed.
This is where the overwhelming research shows the value of glutamine raising growth hormone levels significantly by taking 5 grams before bed.
Also, another great time is upon waking, when your muscles have been without significant nutrition for up to 6-8 hours.
Another good time for glutamine is about a half hour or hour after working out.
This helps in the recovery/recuperation process from demanding workouts.
So, creatine definitely before and after your workout and glutamine right before bed and right upon waking.
Protein
The best times to take ANY protein drink or protein supplements are as follows.
I've listed them in order of importance, so based upon what you can afford, start at the top of the list and work down.
When Should You Take It?
The most important time is right after a workout.
Your muscles are like a sponge and need instant nutrition for muscle recovery and growth.
Right before bed.
You're about to sleep for 6 to 8 hours. That's a long time without protein.
Could you imagine going throughout your day (when awake) not eating 6 to 8 hours?
Right before bed is important.
Right upon waking.
Same thing, you've just gone 6 to 8 hours without proper nutrition. Your body needs protein quick.
Half hour before a workout.
This sets up the "anabolic window" before your workout and provides your muscles with adequate nutrition so that the effects of weight training (weight training breaks down muscle-called catabolic) are not as severe.
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Replies
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Bump for later0
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This is good info & although you DON'T recommend it, I hope you don't mind if I clarify that Glutamine & Creatine use the same uptake receptors & therefore SHOULD NOT be taken together.
Russ0 -
In the presence of adequate total protein intake, L-Glutamine isn't necessary at all. You're already getting ample supplies of glutamine in the protein you're consuming.
Secondarily, while I think it's great to share information, I'd recommend looking into the nutrition forums of bodybuilding.com but stay away from articles like this on the supersite.
There's quite a bit of crap information in this article and when I say this I'm not judging or pointing the finger at the person who shared it with us here, I'm judging the article itself. All the information provided about whey protein in this article is pretty much written to make you purchase protein. The nutrient timing necessities they've listed don't apply to someone who is consuming adequate total daily intake of protein due to an overlapping effect, essentially.0 -
Millions of years of evolution and the human body still hasn't adapted to a point where it can survive more than 8 hours without consuming protein. How did our ancestors survive? It's one of life's great mysteries.0
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Millions of years of evolution and the human body still hasn't adapted to a point where it can survive more than 8 hours without consuming protein. How did our ancestors survive? It's one of life's great mysteries.
Depends on ones goals. Maybe doesn't fit you goals a runner (from the foto it seems) but as body builder my needs are totally different to yours. I DO need far greater amounts of protein for me to grow.
I can't pick much fault with what was posted.0 -
There is a difference between getting adequate amounts of protein and it being absolutely necessary to have it at certain times or your muscles will eat themselves. Bodybuilder, runner, pole vaulter, bowler, whatever - the human body would be a fragile thing indeed if it could not sustain itself without loading up on protein every 6 hours.
So fragile. Really just a miracle that we wake up every day after sleeping with no protein for so long.0 -
douche0
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Millions of years of evolution and the human body still hasn't adapted to a point where it can survive more than 8 hours without consuming protein. How did our ancestors survive? It's one of life's great mysteries.
It can survive, and if this site was all about eating to survive then your point is valid. It's not though, it's about tailoring your exercise and eating habits to be the best that you can be, not to get through the day without dying!
Poor attempt also to sarcastically mention our ancestors because if they had access to the nutrition that we had today, life expectancy 1000 years ago wouldn't have been half of what it is today.0 -
This guy is going 16 hours at a time without eating - much less taking nine protein shakes and fistfuls of creatine and glutamine every time he walks up the stairs. Looks like he and his clients are doing a little better than surviving. It seems that as long as your total protein is high enough to accomplish your goals it doesn't make a lot of difference if you have it within 5 minutes of working out or a few hours.
http://www.leangains.com/0 -
bump for later0
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I'm no expert, but what Scooby says intuitively makes sense: http://scoobysworkshop.com/supplements-and-steroids/0
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This guy is going 16 hours at a time without eating - much less taking nine protein shakes and fistfuls of creatine and glutamine every time he walks up the stairs. Looks like he and his clients are doing a little better than surviving. It seems that as long as your total protein is high enough to accomplish your goals it doesn't make a lot of difference if you have it within 5 minutes of working out or a few hours.
http://www.leangains.com/
Well no, you are wrong. Using an example when one is perhaps dieting...
In a recent 2012 study it was shown by JP Loenneke that protein quality is directly associated with abdominal fat. That is to say, a diet higher in essential amino acids will clearly demonstrate a greater (and scientifically provable) loss of body fat.
On top of this, the increase of muscle mass which the high quality protein diet allows causes additional fat burning through an increased muscle mass. Additionally, increase in the energy sensing molecule AMPK in the body causes the activation of AMPK in the brain lowering appetite and thus allows fewer calories to be consumer without any additional suffering perceived by the body builder cutting.
This was concluded in a study by AK Saha in his study “Downregulation of AMPK accompanies leucine and insulin induced protein synthesis and insulin resistance” in a 2010 study.
I understand the science and my body shows this. My profile picture is me. I am the result of me making body building a science and using the best research to build the best body I can.0 -
What you're doing is obviously very effective.
I never said anything about the quality of protein. I am questioning the need to have multiple scoops of protein/glutamine/creatine at specific times relative to your sleep patterns and when you work out.
The article was saying that you should be taking a ****load of creatine and glutamine every day. I think that the timing and amounts laid out in that article are unnecessary. Three to four servings of creatine, three servings of glutamine, three servings of protein. It just seems excessive if you're eating almost any real food at all. I shoot for around 190 to 200 grams of protein a day - I understand that's probably not a lot for a bodybuilder but it's a little more that 1 gram per pound LBM for me. About 25 to 50 grams of that comes from powder. As was mentioned above - this article just looks like it's promoting supplement sales.0 -
I agree with timing and the ingestion of L-Glutamine away from other proteins myself however (which is why many brands combining BCAA's and L-Glutamine really confuses me!) I'm afraid. Of course, this includes BCAA's as well and other EAA's.
As with a majority of amino's, they compete with other amino's when one ingests them. On waking, an amount of L-Glutamine, taken away from other amino's means it will be ingested quickly and begin its life cycle in the body accordingly, not withstanding that it is shown to increase the immune system and help repair of the gut amongst other things. Why do you think burns victims are given large amounts of L-Glutamine? It improves tissue repair. Which is exactly what a bodybuilder wants.
For the average joe, its probably an overkill and not worth the 5% difference. However, with one getting that 5% boost year on year can mean over 5-10, a good few lb of extra muscle. Hardly something to be sniffed IF the muscle is important to you.0 -
You two sound like you know what you're talking about, and I don't. I'm out!0
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Well no, you are wrong. Using an example when one is perhaps dieting...
In a recent 2012 study it was shown by JP Loenneke that protein quality is directly associated with abdominal fat. That is to say, a diet higher in essential amino acids will clearly demonstrate a greater (and scientifically provable) loss of body fat.
On top of this, the increase of muscle mass which the high quality protein diet allows causes additional fat burning through an increased muscle mass. Additionally, increase in the energy sensing molecule AMPK in the body causes the activation of AMPK in the brain lowering appetite and thus allows fewer calories to be consumer without any additional suffering perceived by the body builder cutting.
This was concluded in a study by AK Saha in his study “Downregulation of AMPK accompanies leucine and insulin induced protein synthesis and insulin resistance” in a 2010 study.
I understand the science and my body shows this. My profile picture is me. I am the result of me making body building a science and using the best research to build the best body I can.
Can you please link the study Matt? Also, while you obviously look great, you and I know damn well that it has nothing to do with nutritional knowledge. EDIT: To be clear, what I mean by that is that physique is not proof of being correct.0 -
I agree with timing and the ingestion of L-Glutamine away from other proteins myself however (which is why many brands combining BCAA's and L-Glutamine really confuses me!) I'm afraid. Of course, this includes BCAA's as well and other EAA's.
As with a majority of amino's, they compete with other amino's when one ingests them. On waking, an amount of L-Glutamine, taken away from other amino's means it will be ingested quickly and begin its life cycle in the body accordingly, not withstanding that it is shown to increase the immune system and help repair of the gut amongst other things. Why do you think burns victims are given large amounts of L-Glutamine? It improves tissue repair. Which is exactly what a bodybuilder wants.
For the average joe, its probably an overkill and not worth the 5% difference. However, with one getting that 5% boost year on year can mean over 5-10, a good few lb of extra muscle. Hardly something to be sniffed IF the muscle is important to you.
Matt,
What about someone who is already maximizing protein synthesis through ample protein intake via diet. For example, if I'm already sufficient on protein, I'm going to be getting a sufficient supply of EAA's once the proteins break down (and this would include L-Glutamine). Do you believe that additional supplementation, above and beyond sufficient protein intake, is somehow beneficial?0 -
I agree with timing and the ingestion of L-Glutamine away from other proteins myself however (which is why many brands combining BCAA's and L-Glutamine really confuses me!) I'm afraid. Of course, this includes BCAA's as well and other EAA's.
As with a majority of amino's, they compete with other amino's when one ingests them. On waking, an amount of L-Glutamine, taken away from other amino's means it will be ingested quickly and begin its life cycle in the body accordingly, not withstanding that it is shown to increase the immune system and help repair of the gut amongst other things. Why do you think burns victims are given large amounts of L-Glutamine? It improves tissue repair. Which is exactly what a bodybuilder wants.
For the average joe, its probably an overkill and not worth the 5% difference. However, with one getting that 5% boost year on year can mean over 5-10, a good few lb of extra muscle. Hardly something to be sniffed IF the muscle is important to you.
Never mind my request for the study as that's here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20682696
How would you take the information in this study and apply it in a dose-relevant context to humans? To me, this study suggests that Leucine and glucose are important in stimulating protein synthesis. Does it tell us something valuable about timing or dosage? EDIT: Re-reading it, the study says more than this so I'm incorrect in that previous statement, however, the following question is still important to me:
I'm just trying to understand how your mention of the study is relevant to the post you quoted, that's all. What about this study is applicable to you and to the relevance of amino dosage and/or protein timing?
Thanks.0 -
Put simply, if I am ingesting expensive protein supplements, I to use them optimally when they can be ingested at a time befitting the use.
There are lots of studies around that will show timing can help increase protein uptake and indeed effect the response given by the body. Indeed, mTOR (Mammalian target of rapamycin) response highest when large amounts of leucine are in the body indicating that large amounts of dietry protein are available. In fact, without the 8 EAA's, no muscular gains can be made, esp the key leucine is missing. Equally I'm sure you can find studies that show the opposite, no doubt.
Because of this, I'm not going to go into individual studies here because I simply don't have the time to do so this evening, but needless to say if you do a little research and read beyond simply leangains.com and the like you will find that what you are looking for that will back up my POV.
But do as you please, there is many ways to skin a cat and if you think eating ad hoc at any time and just hitting your needs is fine, go ahead. I've tried both myself over the last 10 years and making the whole process a scientific one in the way I have done, has worked very well for me, esp in the last couple of years as I've applied the theories I have studied and read up on further.
You may find your method delivers gains that satisfy your needs.0 -
if you do a little research and read beyond simply leangains.com and the like you will find that what you are looking for that will back up my POV.
I have done quite a bit of research, and I don't agree. Nothing personal.
EDIT: I AM however, interested in whatever studies you have that back up your claim. Whether or not you want to take the time to engage in that discussion is up to you of course.0 -
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/280/6/E982.short
http://www.jappl.org/content/82/6/1882.short
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/Abstract/2002/08000/The_Role_of_Protein_and_Amino_Acid_Supplements_in.5.aspx
Just a few. I'm sure you could find a few counter arguments too. Point is, it works for me.0 -
Question regarding this then.
I take 2 protein shakes per day - One in the morning with breakfast and one in the evening.
On workout days I take it as soon as I get in. On non-workout days I take it with evening meal which is normally an hour or so before bed.
The suggestions above give like 4 different times to have it (immediately after waking, before workout, after workout and before bed).
Am I better halving the amounts and having half a shake at those times? He lists the best 2 times as after workout and before bed - which fall within a couple of hours space for me so I can't see how that would work for me.
Or given that my workouts are evening time, am I doing it as best I can given my routine?0 -
Chris, I'd personally run the following:
Waking: L- Glutamine (at 0.35 x BW in KG) if being used or if one can afford it, 10g EAA's. 20-30 mins later I'd have my whey.
PreWO: 10g EAA and 10g BCAA
IntraWO: 20-30g BCAA (0.25 x BW in kg for optimal figure)
PostWO: 30-40g of whey blend (fast and slow digesting proteins) (see http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/26/1_MeetingAbstracts/1013.9?sid=ae665bae-7f22-415a-b638-70f25b3fc06b)
PreBed - 30-40g Casein or whey blend
When I say before meals I mean at least 10-15 minutes before on as empty a stomach as possible. They do their signaling when not competing with other complete proteins. Look into studies done by Eric Serrano. His lab research shows 10 grams of EAA's to be the anabolic equivalent of 40+ grams of protein.0 -
I should DEFO point out, you don't have to do this. You may notice a 5-10% difference in real terms in muscular gains etc over a period of a year or two. Whether the net cost is worth it to you, it is up to you.
It matters to me, its my position to look a certain whey and for my clients to appreciate me as a coach. It literally pays my bills for the difference the powders can give over time.0 -
Chris, I'd personally run the following:
Waking: L- Glutamine (at 0.35 x BW in KG) if being used or if one can afford it, 10g EAA's. 20-30 mins later I'd have my whey.
PreWO: 10g EAA and 10g BCAA
IntraWO: 20-30g BCAA (0.25 x BW in kg for optimal figure)
PostWO: 30-40g of whey blend (fast and slow digesting proteins) (see http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/26/1_MeetingAbstracts/1013.9?sid=ae665bae-7f22-415a-b638-70f25b3fc06b)
PreBed - 30-40g Casein or whey blend
When I say before meals I mean at least 10-15 minutes before on as empty a stomach as possible. They do their signaling when not competing with other complete proteins. Look into studies done by Eric Serrano. His lab research shows 10 grams of EAA's to be the anabolic equivalent of 40+ grams of protein.
Cheers Matt.
Protein shakes I always tend to have with or just after a meal, so I'll switch that up and start getting them in first.
The other stuff may be a bit prohibitively expensive, but I'll have a look at cost and try to get that in as well. If not now then definitely in the future.
I got some M Casein protein for pre bed, but got the unflavoured variety thinking I could easily flavour it myself but I've not worked out how to effectively flavour so it's still sat in the tub.
Have you flavoured yourself? and if so, how? I went for vanilla essence but I had to put the whole lot in and it still didn't taste of vanilla at all...
Also - have you ever felt a benefit from creatine? I've tried getting on it a few times but notice no benefit at all.
Thanks again for the info dude.0 -
Yes, unflavoured is fine and some would argue better as a higher protein. You can get one drop ultra concentrate flavour system that may help if you need. Heck low sugar Nesqwik if you aren't dieting would be fine.
I'm a none responded to creatine myself but others do - try it!
Are you US based? (I'm not, but friends are!), this is the cheapest I've seen the bits I've recommended :
EAA - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1154-eaas-essential-amino-acids-instantized-powder-100-grams.aspx
BCAA - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1118-bcaas-branch-chain-amino-acids-instantized-100-grams.aspx
L-Glutamine - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-962-l-glutamine-powder-100-grams.aspx
Creatine - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1006-creatine-gluconate-powder-100-grams.aspx
Flavour system - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1030-true-nutrition-natural-flavor-packs-50-grams.aspx
I AM NOT LINKED TO THE ABOVE CO IN ANYWAY.0 -
This is something I have been quite curious about - my protein manufacturer clearly suggests I take 4-6 small drinks (Incl on during weights) a day. Whereas for ease I just take the same ammount in a couple throughout the day to up my overall protein intake.
I have therefore wondered if doing two big ones is easier, not ideal, but only has a small effect on my gains.. or if it is so relevant that it means I'm totally wasting my time taking it.0 -
Yes, unflavoured is fine and some would argue better as a higher protein. You can get one drop ultra concentrate flavour system that may help if you need. Heck low sugar Nesqwik if you aren't dieting would be fine.
I'm a none responded to creatine myself but others do - try it!
Are you US based? (I'm not, but friends are!), this is the cheapest I've seen the bits I've recommended :
EAA - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1154-eaas-essential-amino-acids-instantized-powder-100-grams.aspx
BCAA - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1118-bcaas-branch-chain-amino-acids-instantized-100-grams.aspx
L-Glutamine - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-962-l-glutamine-powder-100-grams.aspx
Creatine - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1006-creatine-gluconate-powder-100-grams.aspx
Flavour system - http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1030-true-nutrition-natural-flavor-packs-50-grams.aspx
I AM NOT LINKED TO THE ABOVE CO IN ANYWAY.
Perhaps I'm just a non-responder as well then as over the periods I've used it I've just felt no benefit.
I'm UK based - does that company supply UK?
I'll check out those links tho. Cheers!0 -
I just started with the protein shakes and glutamine. I take my protein with some glutamine after a workout. That's what they showed me at the dojo I used to train at. I think I'm doing it wrong. This thread completely broke my brain. How could I eat that much protein and stay under my calories.0
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Perhaps I'm just a non-responder as well then as over the periods I've used it I've just felt no benefit.
I'm UK based - does that company supply UK?
I'll check out those links tho. Cheers!
MyProtein in that case!
EAA - http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/essential_amino_acids
BCAA - Use http://www.myprotein.com/uk/pages/Price_Matcher and then www.tradeingredients.com to get 1kg for £23.99
L-Glutamine - http://www.myprotein.com/uk/pages/Price_Matcher and then www.ironscience.co.uk for 1kg for £15.95
Creatine - http://www.myprotein.com/uk/pages/Price_Matcher and then www.ironscience.co.uk for 1kg for £8.54
Flavour system - http://www.myprotein.com/uk/pages/search?SearchTerm=flavour0
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