Thinking about vegan...?

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  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Point of view from a vegetarian here: While I would love more people to stop eating meat, there is no reason someone should become vegan or vegetarian for health reasons. You should look into the restrictions and what you would need to be eating to get appropriate macro and micronutrients before deciding to go that route.
  • cboscari
    cboscari Posts: 16 Member
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    The reason I said Campbell is biased is because he ignores the data that does not fit his agenda. Gotta sell books somehow I guess. So why exactly do you think those websites are biased?

    Masterjohn states on his site that its purpose is to promote the health benefits of dietary cholesterol. He even states he cured himself by eating meat and organ meat. That is a bias, but like Campbell he states his.
    Without appealing to authority (because the fact that Campbell has a PhD means nothing), can you specifically point to something you disagree with? Or do you just believe Campbell over them because he has more pokemon gym badges... er.. credentials?

    First- an appeal to authority is when I use the statements of an expert in one area to prove a claim in another. Celebrity endorsements being the usual example. Recognizing the expertise of someone who has spent time getting credentials, appointments and doing research on a subject and then offering their conclusions is not me "appealing to authority." That is the definition of an "expert", whether you agree with them or not. However, you seem to have some disdain for academic credentials in this case, I am not sure why you so quickly discount them.
    Secondly is the odd burden of proof you insist I adhere to in this debate. You make a few statements, post a few links, but assert I must provide a written response at length under parameters you impose. How about I just ask that you look at several responses to the criticisms leveled the book, including several addressing the issues raised by Denise Minger's analysis (as an example)of the data and call it even?
  • cboscari
    cboscari Posts: 16 Member
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    The issue with the China Study is that the epedemiological data does not support Campbell's conclusions in any way shape or form. For a proper evisceration of the book, look at Denise Minger's site:

    http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

    I actually agree with you. To me, a flaw in Campbell's analysis of the China data is that it is unlikely that anyone in China was eating as strict a Vegan diet as Campbell advocates. Odds are, like most Chinese, they ate a little meat with a meal, more as a condiment or flavor enhancer than a main dish. The results in that context are very similar to the conclusions reached by many other health and medical organizations- many of us eat more meat than we should, we ought to cut back on meat (not eliminate) and eat more vegetables. Nothing controversial there. In fact, I suspect high levels of dietary cholesterol could be more of a factor than his (admittedly weak) connection between animal protein and Western diseases. However, I still like the book despite the flaws, and science is all about specialists reviewing each other's work. At some point Campbell will be supported or refuted, and life goes on. However, Campell is no Vegan, he freely admits to experimenting on rats, and even says that trace amounts of animal products in your food won't harm you. Not much of a "vegan" agenda there.

    Personally, I am vegetarian, not vegan. I try to eat as vegan as possible, but I include dairy and egg every now and then. I respect vegan as a choice, but as I said, you do have to be more careful. As far as I am aware, all vegetarian cultures of the world (India being an obvious one, for example) included dairy and/or eggs. There has never been a pure vegan-diet civilization. That means you must make sure you include foods with B12, iron, and a few other nutrients on a regular basis (nutritional yeast is a good source) to make sure you don't have problems. This is not a "natural" way to eat, in the sense that our ancestors probably didn't worry about getting all their nutrients. They likely ate some meat, when they could get it, unlike today. I'll just think that meat is an optional component in the human diet. There is no nutritional component in meat than can not be found in other sources.
    Chris
  • FITBY30
    FITBY30 Posts: 39 Member
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    vegweb is such an awesome website!!!

    -"all that soy did me in"-ofcourse it did! if you are gonna go vegan, try not to make the mistake most peeps do, being vegan doesnt mean eating soy all the time there are many more options for a well rounded diet. too much soy really isnt good for you, everything in moderation:)
  • maremare312
    maremare312 Posts: 1,143 Member
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    I read Eat to Live and was convinced that was the way to go. Excellent book. I did the Vegan thing for two weeks, and decided that life without cheese wasn't a life I wanted to live. Also, I actually do well with a higher fat intake than Eat to Live recommends. Since then I've done a total 180 and am now doing more of a low carb thing because it controls my sugar cravings and binge eating, but obviously different things work for each person! I would suggest the Eat to Live book though for that eating plan, it had some good recipes and great info. I would NOT recommend their forum, you have to pay to just read it...but if you pay at the lowest level, you still can't post! Awful!
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
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    Hi guys,

    Well, I love my meat, but I just got done watching a documentary called "Forks Over Knives", and I'm sold that animal based proteins and dairy are not good for me. I just found a pretty good vegan website it looks like... called... vegweb.com. Just wanting some opinions from others who have tried vegan and what they think!! Also, is it a lot of work to switch over?

    You have to really examine what you eat and how often in the begining. Some people wean off meat and animal products and some will just decide to be vegan overnight. Others are vegan 6 days out of the week, ect.

    I decided to become vegan after I found out I had a dairy allergy. Dairy was causing me so many problems for years and I didn't know it so when I went off it I felt so much better. I live in a small town so regular food in dairy-free options was sparse so most things I did find were vegan so that's how I made the switch and realized I didn't really eat meat much anyway. I am still transitioning. I do not eat dairy period, or eggs, but I do have meat once-twice a week and then some weeks with none.

    You may find transitioning easier when you try some substitutes like soy, almond or rice milk. Or cheese replacements like daiya. Be aware that anything that includes 'casein' is dairy. There are also many good fake meats out there like bocas, morning star and gardein. I actually can find these are regular stores I go to that aren't healthfood stores.

    I hope this helps!
  • mcarter99
    mcarter99 Posts: 1,666 Member
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    You can do a lot of good for the environment and your body by just reducing your meat intake. It's not really necessary to go 100% to reap the benefits. Meat has moved from the main dish to a condiment here.
  • autumnpennell
    autumnpennell Posts: 196 Member
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    Hi guys,

    Well, I love my meat, but I just got done watching a documentary called "Forks Over Knives", and I'm sold that animal based proteins and dairy are not good for me. I just found a pretty good vegan website it looks like... called... vegweb.com. Just wanting some opinions from others who have tried vegan and what they think!! Also, is it a lot of work to switch over?

    You have to really examine what you eat and how often in the begining. Some people wean off meat and animal products and some will just decide to be vegan overnight. Others are vegan 6 days out of the week, ect.

    I decided to become vegan after I found out I had a dairy allergy. Dairy was causing me so many problems for years and I didn't know it so when I went off it I felt so much better. I live in a small town so regular food in dairy-free options was sparse so most things I did find were vegan so that's how I made the switch and realized I didn't really eat meat much anyway. I am still transitioning. I do not eat dairy period, or eggs, but I do have meat once-twice a week and then some weeks with none.

    You may find transitioning easier when you try some substitutes like soy, almond or rice milk. Or cheese replacements like daiya. Be aware that anything that includes 'casein' is dairy. There are also many good fake meats out there like bocas, morning star and gardein. I actually can find these are regular stores I go to that aren't healthfood stores.

    I hope this helps!

    yes! that does help! i have decided i am going to go vegetarian first. i don't think it's the weening myself that is hard so much as knowing everything that i'm eating. because i was going to just go vegan, i bought some soy milk and soy yogurt, and the next day failed that quickly when i put creamer (with milk in it) in my coffee without realizing. so yeah, for now i'm just not eating meat while i continue to inform myself about how many things have dairy in it and just what i can replace all those things with. i am a college student home on summer break, but it's not like i have a lot of money to go out and buy vegan groceries. i kinda have to make due with what's in my parents' fridge here at their house. so, yeah. but thank you your post was very helpful! (along with everyone else's)
  • veggiesaurus15
    veggiesaurus15 Posts: 152 Member
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    Going vegan was the best decision I've ever made. But being vegan does not necessarily equate to being healthy because there is a lot of vegan junk food. I eat whole, unrefined foods. Fruits, vegetables, beans and intact whole grains (i.e. brown rice, quinoa). There are tons of resources. Check out:

    Engine 2 Diet
    Eat to Live
    Get Healthy, Go Vegan
    Vegsource.com
    Fatfreevegan.com

    And anything by Jeff Novick, Dr. Joel Fuhrman, Rip Esselsytn, Dr. John McDougall, Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn
  • BrokenButterfly
    BrokenButterfly Posts: 224
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    I'm very slowly transitioning myself after a massive vegan / meat eating debate plus watching 'Food That Kills' (which you can find on youtube in its full version). I got myself a book called 'The Complete Idiot's Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition' which is like my new BIBLE. It's really incredible and makes it all so easy.
    Although I wouldn't call myself a 'real' vegan because I still plan to eat meat when i'm really really craving it - I won't completely deprive myself of anything, just avoid it as much as I possibly can!
    It helps to get some 'mock' meat foods such as meat free mince and meat free burgers so you can still have a lot of the meals you enjoy without the filth that is meat on your plate.
    Milk is also easy to substitute if you go for nut milks. I like Almond milk on my cereals and hazelnut milk in my coffee.
    Chocolate is probably the only thing i'm really struggling with but I am working on it :D
  • xLellyx
    xLellyx Posts: 9 Member
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    Hey!

    I'm a vegan dut to animal enzyme intolerance. Eating anything animal based (meat, dairy, fish) makes me really ill so I've had to cut it out completely.

    I took this as an opportunity to completely rethink my diet. I was veggie for about 7 years before being 'forced' into veganism. My diet was healthy but I did eat the occasional pizza/ bars of chocolate/ ready sandwiches. ALthough I wasn't eating an unhealthy diet, there was still a lot of food going into my body that I couldn't pronounce the ingredients list for.

    Now, I only eat 'clean'. I'm very conscious that I get the right amount of protein and nutrients needed so plan my meals far more meticulously than I ever did as a veggie/ when I ate meat.

    I work out 5/6 times a week with weights, interval and resistance training. Because of this I take a pea protein shake. This isn't because I'm vegan but because any extreme exercise requires an extra protein boost.

    I cook everything from scratch and won't eat anything I can't pronounce (chemical wise!) I don't eat vegan meat replacement foods or fake cake or fake eggs-- if we're going to be healthy we may as well embrace it properly, right?

    I still eat chocolate=- now I just make it myself! You'll become far more adventurous with your cooking.

    I have a website that I'm currently working on www.vplates.org - feel free to have a look for recipe ideas.

    Here are some other good sites of mostly vegan but some veggie recipes :
    http://mynewroots.blogspot.co.uk/
    http://www.greenkitchenstories.com/
    http://www.earthsprout.com/

    Good luck!
  • autumnpennell
    autumnpennell Posts: 196 Member
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    Hey!

    I'm a vegan dut to animal enzyme intolerance. Eating anything animal based (meat, dairy, fish) makes me really ill so I've had to cut it out completely.

    I took this as an opportunity to completely rethink my diet. I was veggie for about 7 years before being 'forced' into veganism. My diet was healthy but I did eat the occasional pizza/ bars of chocolate/ ready sandwiches. ALthough I wasn't eating an unhealthy diet, there was still a lot of food going into my body that I couldn't pronounce the ingredients list for.

    Now, I only eat 'clean'. I'm very conscious that I get the right amount of protein and nutrients needed so plan my meals far more meticulously than I ever did as a veggie/ when I ate meat.

    I work out 5/6 times a week with weights, interval and resistance training. Because of this I take a pea protein shake. This isn't because I'm vegan but because any extreme exercise requires an extra protein boost.

    I cook everything from scratch and won't eat anything I can't pronounce (chemical wise!) I don't eat vegan meat replacement foods or fake cake or fake eggs-- if we're going to be healthy we may as well embrace it properly, right?

    I still eat chocolate=- now I just make it myself! You'll become far more adventurous with your cooking.

    I have a website that I'm currently working on www.vplates.org - feel free to have a look for recipe ideas.

    Here are some other good sites of mostly vegan but some veggie recipes :
    http://mynewroots.blogspot.co.uk/
    http://www.greenkitchenstories.com/
    http://www.earthsprout.com/

    Good luck!

    thank you! i've definitely already found i experience much more with my cooking!
  • ValerieMartini2Olives
    ValerieMartini2Olives Posts: 3,024 Member
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    Read "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Being Vegetarian". It will help you transition. This book really helped me a lot.
  • 879311
    879311 Posts: 60
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    Vegan guy for over a year....was a vegetarian for 5 years in the late 90s.....feeling better than ever and maintaining my weight without really much work lately (need to get cracking again)
  • kitinboots
    kitinboots Posts: 589 Member
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    Ooh this is an interesting thread, I'll hang onto this.
  • bobemmer
    bobemmer Posts: 16 Member
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    i have been doing the vegan thing for 3 plus years now - i moved towards vegqn for ethical reasons and i feel much bette- no acid reflux and my body seems to work better !! i am trying to move away from processed food like booca burgers towards move bean and legume based selections - ggod luck with the journey - ask lots of questions - bob
  • Cocochickdeleted
    Cocochickdeleted Posts: 343 Member
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    I have been vegetarian for about seven months, and have recently been contemplating making the jump to veganism. In fact, I just ordered The 30 Day Vegan Challenge today. I think the hardest thing for me is that I really don't enjoy cooking, and it looks like, in order to ensure that one is truly eating vegan, it is almost required to do a great deal of cooking. But, I have found some amazing looking recipes, so if I can find some quick and easy-to-throw-together ones that are as delicious as they look, I think it would be doable. Any of you 'seasoned' vegans are free to friend request me. I would appreciate the help and guidance!
  • hapandleonard
    hapandleonard Posts: 9
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    Hey!

    I'm a vegan dut to animal enzyme intolerance. Eating anything animal based (meat, dairy, fish) makes me really ill so I've had to cut it out completely.

    I took this as an opportunity to completely rethink my diet. I was veggie for about 7 years before being 'forced' into veganism. My diet was healthy but I did eat the occasional pizza/ bars of chocolate/ ready sandwiches. ALthough I wasn't eating an unhealthy diet, there was still a lot of food going into my body that I couldn't pronounce the ingredients list for.

    Now, I only eat 'clean'. I'm very conscious that I get the right amount of protein and nutrients needed so plan my meals far more meticulously than I ever did as a veggie/ when I ate meat.

    I work out 5/6 times a week with weights, interval and resistance training. Because of this I take a pea protein shake. This isn't because I'm vegan but because any extreme exercise requires an extra protein boost.

    I cook everything from scratch and won't eat anything I can't pronounce (chemical wise!) I don't eat vegan meat replacement foods or fake cake or fake eggs-- if we're going to be healthy we may as well embrace it properly, right?

    I still eat chocolate=- now I just make it myself! You'll become far more adventurous with your cooking.

    I have a website that I'm currently working on www.vplates.org - feel free to have a look for recipe ideas.

    Here are some other good sites of mostly vegan but some veggie recipes :
    http://mynewroots.blogspot.co.uk/
    http://www.greenkitchenstories.com/
    http://www.earthsprout.com/

    Good luck!

    Say WHAT?! You make your own chocolate?! Tell me more....

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