Ketogenic Diet
myers0machine
Posts: 685
A ketogenic diet is a diet high in fat and protein, and virtually no carbohydrate. This will force the body into a state of ketosis whereby ketones are used as a fuel source – rather than glucose.
Ketogenic diets have been used to treat epilepsy and for weight loss. Many body builders also use a ketogenic diet during their ‘cutting’ phase (attempting to burn as much fat as possible while retaining muscle mass). Ketogenic diets have gained some popularity due to the extensive media coverage of low/no carb diets such as Atkins.
Is a Ketogenic Diet Healthy?
Ketogenic diets have been used to treat epilepsy and for weight loss. Many body builders also use a ketogenic diet during their ‘cutting’ phase (attempting to burn as much fat as possible while retaining muscle mass). Ketogenic diets have gained some popularity due to the extensive media coverage of low/no carb diets such as Atkins.
Is a Ketogenic Diet Healthy?
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Replies
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For a short period of time, I would say its healthy. Low-carb diets are always rough for the first couple of days because the body is still trying to use carbs for energy but isnt recieving any. The result is a lack of focus and mental awareness. Once the initial shock is over, your body will begin to regulate normally operating on ketones. I dont think there have been too many studies showing that it is unhealthy, but If your going to do it, I would suggest only for a period of up to 6 months.0
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I am fairly sure that you need to be very disciplined while on this kind of diet. From what I have read about it, if you mess up one day and eat too many carbs, it can take up to a week for you body to get back to the ketosis state. Of course, if you manage that, then I don't think it will do you harm (have not heard of studies saying that at least)0
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My husband does this diet every 6 months or so. He clearly loses fat & gains muscle, evidence in his body fat %. He's very fit anyways but it's amazing the difference in his body & the changes in muscle normally stick with him even after off the diet. It seems to sort of kick start the results he's looking for. He is starting this diet again today, I was going to start it with him but I can't give up my fruits & veggies!0
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A ketogenic diet like you describe IS unhealthy. Your body isn't getting essential nutrients that it needs to function. Not enough doses of calcium, vitamin D, or potassium are just starters. I'm actually on a doctor-supervised ketogenic diet in which she has me take supplements for everything that I can't get through my diet, and it isn't high in fat at all, because that's unhealthy for your gallbladder and liver. You can still be in ketosis while having SOME carbs. I'm allowed to eat up to 25 grams of carbs a day, but they MUST come from fruits and veggies instead of any other source. It's sustainable for a while, and for me, necessary. My body just happens to not process carbs correctly. But it does get the weight off very quickly, and it keeps muscle mass intact, especially if you're working out regularly. It's doable, IF you do it in a way that takes care of all the downfalls of a true "Atkins" diet.0
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I read about some disturbing side effects some epileptic patients have suffered from it. Of course, many were children, and they sometimes had stunted growth due to not getting enough calories. That's not going to be a problem for me, obviously. Other issues were high cholesterol and kidney stones. That's a bit more worrisome.
I'm getting under 20 carbs a day right now, sometimes as few as 10, but I don't plan on staying this low or on going to zero carbs. I plan on gradually working my way up past the number of carbs someone on a ketogenic diet for epilepsy would consume. Even the Inuit ate some carbs, like the grass from caribou stomachs. Plus, they were fish eaters, and I'm a beef eater, so I'm probably in far more danger of high cholesterol than they were on their traditional diet.0 -
It can take some time to adapt to being primarily a fat-burner (up to a few weeks apparently, I adjusted quickly) but once you are there it's great ... No real hunger, no sugar cravings, a more 'even mood' ... Makes more sense to me than needing to refuel every few hours.
When I eat I eat very well but I never feel compelled to snack and when I consume sugar I appreciate it more (e.g. some premium ice cream).
Compare this to my 'always hungry' semi-starvation days on the low-fat fad diet and it's a winner.
Long term? I'll be adding back some selected carbs (legumes, etc) but I'll probably always be on the fringes of ketosis.
Hey, I even had some garlic bread today so this isn't a religion but my body definitely feels better this way.0 -
You don't have to give up veggies, or fruits, either, really. You just have to eat fruits that are lower in carbs, in moderation.
That being said, you do have to be very disciplined... but the results are worth it if you can do that.0 -
A ketogenic diet like you describe IS unhealthy. Your body isn't getting essential nutrients that it needs to function. Not enough doses of calcium, vitamin D, or potassium are just starters. I'm actually on a doctor-supervised ketogenic diet in which she has me take supplements for everything that I can't get through my diet, and it isn't high in fat at all, because that's unhealthy for your gallbladder and liver. You can still be in ketosis while having SOME carbs. I'm allowed to eat up to 25 grams of carbs a day, but they MUST come from fruits and veggies instead of any other source. It's sustainable for a while, and for me, necessary. My body just happens to not process carbs correctly. But it does get the weight off very quickly, and it keeps muscle mass intact, especially if you're working out regularly. It's doable, IF you do it in a way that takes care of all the downfalls of a true "Atkins" diet.
You either have medical issues resulting in fat being bad for you or you need to fire your doctor.
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It can take some time to adapt to being primarily a fat-burner (up to a few weeks apparently, I adjusted quickly) but once you are there it's great ... No real hunger, no sugar cravings, a more 'even mood' ... Makes more sense to me than needing to refuel every few hours.
When I eat I eat very well but I never feel compelled to snack and when I consume sugar I appreciate it more (e.g. some premium ice cream).
Compare this to my 'always hungry' semi-starvation days on the low-fat fad diet and it's a winner.
Long term? I'll be adding back some selected carbs (legumes, etc) but I'll probably always be on the fringes of ketosis.
Hey, I even had some garlic bread today so this isn't a religion but my body definitely feels better this way.
I'm going to start by adding peanuts (potassium!) and onions (vitamin C? I forget, but I like them and miss them). After that, I'll probably stay there for awhile if I feel okay. But I'm glad you said that about it possibly taking a few weeks to adjust, because I do think my brain fog hasn't completely gone away, and I'm on day 12 or 13 or something like that.0 -
A ketogenic diet like you describe IS unhealthy. Your body isn't getting essential nutrients that it needs to function. Not enough doses of calcium, vitamin D, or potassium are just starters. I'm actually on a doctor-supervised ketogenic diet in which she has me take supplements for everything that I can't get through my diet, and it isn't high in fat at all, because that's unhealthy for your gallbladder and liver. You can still be in ketosis while having SOME carbs. I'm allowed to eat up to 25 grams of carbs a day, but they MUST come from fruits and veggies instead of any other source. It's sustainable for a while, and for me, necessary. My body just happens to not process carbs correctly. But it does get the weight off very quickly, and it keeps muscle mass intact, especially if you're working out regularly. It's doable, IF you do it in a way that takes care of all the downfalls of a true "Atkins" diet.
You either have medical issues resulting in fat being bad for you or you need to fire your doctor.
Everyone will have medical issues with the amount of fat in the Atkins diet. That's actually the cause of having to have my gallbladder taken out in an emergency procedure. That's why my diet is now doctor supervised. Also if you don't drink a TON of water to flush out the system, kidney stones can result.0 -
I am fairly sure that you need to be very disciplined while on this kind of diet. From what I have read about it, if you mess up one day and eat too many carbs, it can take up to a week for you body to get back to the ketosis state. Of course, if you manage that, then I don't think it will do you harm (have not heard of studies saying that at least)
I guess if you are the kind of person that pees on strips to determine your 'ketosis level' (which are inherently inaccurate) then you could obsess about the details.
I don't, I just avoid the processed junk, the added sugars and eat real whole nutrient-rich satisfying food.
Maybe I am not strictly 'ketogenic' but I know limiting my carbs to only what I need to fulfill my dietary fibre requirements works for me ... By all accounts less than 50g net carbs will put you into ketosis and I generally hit 30g a day.
Whether I am 'in ketosis' or not matters less than if my belt notch moves
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It can take some time to adapt to being primarily a fat-burner (up to a few weeks apparently, I adjusted quickly) but once you are there it's great ... No real hunger, no sugar cravings, a more 'even mood' ... Makes more sense to me than needing to refuel every few hours.
When I eat I eat very well but I never feel compelled to snack and when I consume sugar I appreciate it more (e.g. some premium ice cream).
Compare this to my 'always hungry' semi-starvation days on the low-fat fad diet and it's a winner.
Long term? I'll be adding back some selected carbs (legumes, etc) but I'll probably always be on the fringes of ketosis.
Hey, I even had some garlic bread today so this isn't a religion but my body definitely feels better this way.
I'm going to start by adding peanuts (potassium!) and onions (vitamin C? I forget, but I like them and miss them). After that, I'll probably stay there for awhile if I feel okay. But I'm glad you said that about it possibly taking a few weeks to adjust, because I do think my brain fog hasn't completely gone away, and I'm on day 12 or 13 or something like that.
Hey look, everyone is different ... I love onions and enjoy them in abundance but I avoid peanuts which are off my menu for a while ... I do grab a handful of raw nuts occasionally for a snack and an energy boost, better than some sugar-laden snack for me.
I truly believe the key to fat loss is discovering your tolerance to carbohydrate and everyone is different due to their genetics and the state of their metabolism.
I have tried to convince my OH to join me but I can see she is addicted to sugar (late night snacks, etc) and breaking the cycle is tricky ...
Good luck, check in with the low carb forum here if you get a chance
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A ketogenic diet like you describe IS unhealthy. Your body isn't getting essential nutrients that it needs to function. Not enough doses of calcium, vitamin D, or potassium are just starters. I'm actually on a doctor-supervised ketogenic diet in which she has me take supplements for everything that I can't get through my diet, and it isn't high in fat at all, because that's unhealthy for your gallbladder and liver. You can still be in ketosis while having SOME carbs. I'm allowed to eat up to 25 grams of carbs a day, but they MUST come from fruits and veggies instead of any other source. It's sustainable for a while, and for me, necessary. My body just happens to not process carbs correctly. But it does get the weight off very quickly, and it keeps muscle mass intact, especially if you're working out regularly. It's doable, IF you do it in a way that takes care of all the downfalls of a true "Atkins" diet.
You either have medical issues resulting in fat being bad for you or you need to fire your doctor.
Everyone will have medical issues with the amount of fat in the Atkins diet. That's actually the cause of having to have my gallbladder taken out in an emergency procedure. That's why my diet is now doctor supervised. Also if you don't drink a TON of water to flush out the system, kidney stones can result.
So you did atkins and it harmed you?
I dont understand.
Or you had a preexisting medical issue that makes fat bad for you?0 -
A ketogenic diet like you describe IS unhealthy. Your body isn't getting essential nutrients that it needs to function. Not enough doses of calcium, vitamin D, or potassium are just starters. I'm actually on a doctor-supervised ketogenic diet in which she has me take supplements for everything that I can't get through my diet, and it isn't high in fat at all, because that's unhealthy for your gallbladder and liver. You can still be in ketosis while having SOME carbs. I'm allowed to eat up to 25 grams of carbs a day, but they MUST come from fruits and veggies instead of any other source. It's sustainable for a while, and for me, necessary. My body just happens to not process carbs correctly. But it does get the weight off very quickly, and it keeps muscle mass intact, especially if you're working out regularly. It's doable, IF you do it in a way that takes care of all the downfalls of a true "Atkins" diet.
You are correct lady. Vitamin supplements are essential.0 -
It can take some time to adapt to being primarily a fat-burner (up to a few weeks apparently, I adjusted quickly) but once you are there it's great ... No real hunger, no sugar cravings, a more 'even mood' ... Makes more sense to me than needing to refuel every few hours.
When I eat I eat very well but I never feel compelled to snack and when I consume sugar I appreciate it more (e.g. some premium ice cream).
Compare this to my 'always hungry' semi-starvation days on the low-fat fad diet and it's a winner.
Long term? I'll be adding back some selected carbs (legumes, etc) but I'll probably always be on the fringes of ketosis.
Hey, I even had some garlic bread today so this isn't a religion but my body definitely feels better this way.
I'm going to start by adding peanuts (potassium!) and onions (vitamin C? I forget, but I like them and miss them). After that, I'll probably stay there for awhile if I feel okay. But I'm glad you said that about it possibly taking a few weeks to adjust, because I do think my brain fog hasn't completely gone away, and I'm on day 12 or 13 or something like that.
Hey look, everyone is different ... I love onions and enjoy them in abundance but I avoid peanuts which are off my menu for a while ... I do grab a handful of raw nuts occasionally for a snack and an energy boost, better than some sugar-laden snack for me.
I truly believe the key to fat loss is discovering your tolerance to carbohydrate and everyone is different due to their genetics and the state of their metabolism.
I have tried to convince my OH to join me but I can see she is addicted to sugar (late night snacks, etc) and breaking the cycle is tricky ...
Good luck, check in with the low carb forum here if you get a chance
Thanks! Going to have to find and join that forum. I was thinking not of eating peanuts every day, but a serving two or three times a week, but if they give me cravings for other stuff, or if the onions do, I'll immediately quit. I hate cravings, and I'm enjoying not having any major ones too much to give it up!0 -
A ketogenic diet like you describe IS unhealthy. Your body isn't getting essential nutrients that it needs to function. Not enough doses of calcium, vitamin D, or potassium are just starters. I'm actually on a doctor-supervised ketogenic diet in which she has me take supplements for everything that I can't get through my diet, and it isn't high in fat at all, because that's unhealthy for your gallbladder and liver. You can still be in ketosis while having SOME carbs. I'm allowed to eat up to 25 grams of carbs a day, but they MUST come from fruits and veggies instead of any other source. It's sustainable for a while, and for me, necessary. My body just happens to not process carbs correctly. But it does get the weight off very quickly, and it keeps muscle mass intact, especially if you're working out regularly. It's doable, IF you do it in a way that takes care of all the downfalls of a true "Atkins" diet.
You either have medical issues resulting in fat being bad for you or you need to fire your doctor.
Everyone will have medical issues with the amount of fat in the Atkins diet. That's actually the cause of having to have my gallbladder taken out in an emergency procedure. That's why my diet is now doctor supervised. Also if you don't drink a TON of water to flush out the system, kidney stones can result.
So you did atkins and it harmed you?
I dont understand.
Or you had a preexisting medical issue that makes fat bad for you?
I don't know of anyone who large amounts of unhealthy fat is GOOD for, but yes, based upon a medical condition that doesn't allow my body to process carbs correctly, I did Atkins looking to drop carbs and pounds, and it caused a lot of nutrient deficiencies and it caused gallstones that became inflamed. I have had to learn A LOT about ketogenic diets in the last 3 years, and my doctor has been great in trying to help me get past the harm that came of the original Atkins diet, because it doesn't take into account that a lot of bad can come with the good. The diet that I'm on now basically tweaked the Atkins diet so that it is a healthier diet that is low in bad fats (I still need "good" fats in small amounts) and supplements what I can't get from meat with vitamins. It's not ideal, but it's working for me, and I need to help my body function to its best capabilities any way I can! 0 -
I don't know of anyone who large amounts of unhealthy fat is GOOD for, but yes, based upon a medical condition that doesn't allow my body to process carbs correctly, I did Atkins looking to drop carbs and pounds, and it caused a lot of nutrient deficiencies and it caused gallstones that became inflamed. I have had to learn A LOT about ketogenic diets in the last 3 years, and my doctor has been great in trying to help me get past the harm that came of the original Atkins diet, because it doesn't take into account that a lot of bad can come with the good. The diet that I'm on now basically tweaked the Atkins diet so that it is a healthier diet that is low in bad fats (I still need "good" fats in small amounts) and supplements what I can't get from meat with vitamins. It's not ideal, but it's working for me, and I need to help my body function to its best capabilities any way I can!
I did a diff version of this diet as well that focused on lean meats and reduced fats (no cheese or nuts or fat meats) as well. I had to take vitamin supplements for potassium, magnesium, calcium and a multivitamin.0 -
but If your going to do it, I would suggest only for a period of up to 6 months.
Why do you say 6 months? Is it just your feeling or is there some science behind your number?0 -
I don't know of anyone who large amounts of unhealthy fat is GOOD for, but yes, based upon a medical condition that doesn't allow my body to process carbs correctly, I did Atkins looking to drop carbs and pounds, and it caused a lot of nutrient deficiencies and it caused gallstones that became inflamed. I have had to learn A LOT about ketogenic diets in the last 3 years, and my doctor has been great in trying to help me get past the harm that came of the original Atkins diet, because it doesn't take into account that a lot of bad can come with the good. The diet that I'm on now basically tweaked the Atkins diet so that it is a healthier diet that is low in bad fats (I still need "good" fats in small amounts) and supplements what I can't get from meat with vitamins. It's not ideal, but it's working for me, and I need to help my body function to its best capabilities any way I can!
I did a diff version of this diet as well that focused on lean meats and reduced fats (no cheese or nuts or fat meats) as well. I had to take vitamin supplements for potassium, magnesium, calcium and a multivitamin.
Absolutely! I take the same supplements...I can have cheese, but only small amounts and only low-fat cheeses. I also have to cut the fat off of any meats that I eat, and they suggest that I stay with lean protein to keep it easier for myself. Sounds like very similar versions!0 -
I don't know of anyone who large amounts of unhealthy fat is GOOD for, but yes, based upon a medical condition that doesn't allow my body to process carbs correctly, I did Atkins looking to drop carbs and pounds, and it caused a lot of nutrient deficiencies and it caused gallstones that became inflamed. I
The University of Maryland Medical Center says that gallstones take a long time to form. How long were you on Atkins before you had issues? Do you think that maybe that you aforementioned metabolic problems could have had anything to do with it?
It is true that a gallstone attack often follows a fat rich meal, that makes sense, that is when the gallbladder is activated, but that did not cause the underlying condition. What you suggest is like a man with arteriosclerosis blaming the bus he was chasing for his heart attack. Running caused the condition to present, but it was not the source of the condition that caused the heart attack.
On average, symptoms take about 8 years to develop." [/i
I]
Read more: http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_symptoms_of_gallstones_gallbladder_disease_000010_2.htm#ixzz208VFUTkM0 -
Oh this is such a sore spot for me. My boyfriend did this last summer, and lost 50lbs in about 3 months. However, he went to his doctor for a checkup and his doctor told him that forcing his body into a state of starvation was unhealthy, having ketones in the blood is unhealthy (did you know your heart and brain run solely off of the energy released from the breakdown of carbohydrates?), and losing that amount of weight so quickly was unhealthy.
Also, a HUGE proportion of that weight loss was muscle loss, not fat loss. His arms looked emaciated, and it killed me to watch it happen.
Needless to say, I think there are much better ways to lose weight. Exercise, eat well, and don't look for an immediate fix. Good luck to you
Oh, and I should add that he was often dizzy, weak, lethargic, etc. I don't know. Its just not worth it to me.0 -
Who is advocating starving oneself?Oh this is such a sore spot for me. My boyfriend did this last summer, and lost 50lbs in about 3 months. However, he went to his doctor for a checkup and his doctor told him that forcing his body into a state of starvation was unhealthy
Being morbidly obsese is unhealthy. Ketones are the byproduct of metabolizing lipids. How does anyone metabolize any fat without producing ketones?[/quote], having ketones in the blood is unhealthy
Then why didn't your boyfriend die after a few days on his diet? Hint: glucogenesis.(did you know your heart and brain run solely off of the energy released from the breakdown of carbohydrates?),
Probably true, though you didn't tell us where he started, where he ended or exactly what the "did this" that your boyfriend did was. Calling what your boyfriend did a ketogenic diet bay be a stretch. It sounds more likely that he did what his Dr said, starved himself. He probably wasn't getting adequate levels of any nutrients, not just carbs.and losing that amount of weight so quickly was unhealthy.
Once more, who is advocating a program that would do that?Oh, and I should add that he was often dizzy, weak, lethargic, etc.0 -
Who is advocating starving oneself?Oh this is such a sore spot for me. My boyfriend did this last summer, and lost 50lbs in about 3 months. However, he went to his doctor for a checkup and his doctor told him that forcing his body into a state of starvation was unhealthy
Being morbidly obsese is unhealthy. Ketones are the byproduct of metabolizing lipids. How does anyone metabolize any fat without producing ketones?, having ketones in the blood is unhealthy
Then why didn't your boyfriend die after a few days on his diet? Hint: glucogenesis.(did you know your heart and brain run solely off of the energy released from the breakdown of carbohydrates?),
Probably true, though you didn't tell us where he started, where he ended or exactly what the "did this" that your boyfriend did was. Calling what your boyfriend did a ketogenic diet bay be a stretch. It sounds more likely that he did what his Dr said, starved himself. He probably wasn't getting adequate levels of any nutrients, not just carbs.and losing that amount of weight so quickly was unhealthy.
Once more, who is advocating a program that would do that?Oh, and I should add that he was often dizzy, weak, lethargic, etc.
[/quote]
To get your body into a state of ketosis, your carbohydrate intake is almost nothing. And not just for a couple of days. In order to achieve ketosis in the blood you must be eating VERY low carb for a sustained period of time. Until your carbohydrate stores (glycogen) run out and your body burns only the fat and protein your putting into it. So yes. You are inserting food into your mouth (and can eat 1000 steaks at that), but your still starving your body of essential nutrients (carbs), and in my mind thats still starvation.
http://www.acnp.org/g4/gn401000064/ch064.html Here's a link. The brain does rely solely on glucose.
Oh and glucogenesis is the production of glucose from glycogen. Your glycogen stores are depleted during ketosis. So your not making too much this way.
Gluconeogenesis allows for the production of glucose from amino acids, however this process also produces the ketones (aka ketosis) as a biproduct. So thats how you don't die- but it takes your body a HUGE amount of energy to form glucose this way (good for weight loss i guess) but can also cause complications, especially in diabetics and others with hormonal imbalances.
And for the record, I'm not anti low carb diets. However I think people take them too far.0 -
We will just have to disagree on that then.but your still starving your body of essential nutrients (carbs), and in my mind thats still starvation.
Yes it IS good for weight loss and it also helps to quench your hunger but it isn't a huge amount of energy ( I wish), I've read that about 1/3 goes to waste. Your brain does need glucose, but as you said, it doesn't have to come from a carbohydrate substrate. That kills the 'essential' argument for me.Gluconeogenesis allows for the production of glucose from amino acids, however this process also produces the ketones (aka ketosis) as a biproduct. So thats how you don't die- but it takes your body a HUGE amount of energy to form glucose this way (good for weight loss i guess)
and milk is an issue for people without the genetic mutation that allows adults to continue to digest lactose but that would not be a reason to have a sore spot for people who pour milk on their corn flakes who do not have that condition. The fact that ANY diet is not for some subset of the population does not invalidate it for others.but can also cause complications, especially in diabetics and others with hormonal imbalances.
I would not call what your BF did a0 -
Your body is capable of surviving off of fat through ketosis. That's why it uses fat as its primary energy storage. Take some vitamins, you'll be fine. It only takes a couple of days to go into ketosis, and in the transition period your body will deplete its glycogen, then panic a bit and start burning muscle (briefly), then switch to burning fat. In the long run, keeping your carbs under 150 grams a day will likely result in sustained and otherwise effortless weight loss.0
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I struggled for years to get the needle on the scales to budge even a small amount, despite eating healthily and doing exercise. Since I have adopted a very low carb diet I have lost a staggering 33 lbs in just 8 weeks. You could argue (probably correctly) that that's too much weight loss, but I can't help it, the weight continues to fall off at an average of half a pound a day.
Most importantly I feel great; no brain fog, no tiredness, no real symptoms at all apart from I feel faint and giddy when I stand up sometimes.
My blood pressure has dropped significantly on ketosis too (i.e. that's a good thing, it was bordering on high before, now it's nicely in the middle of the correct range).
I have finely tuned my intake and I can share with you what is optimum for me in terms of weight loss;
1100 calories
40g of carbs
75g of fats
90g of proteins
... and NO alcohol.
On the days when I achieve that, I lose around 1 lb. It doesn't really matter whether I exercise or not, it doesn't have much impact on weight loss.
I find I am rarely hungry and I don't crash in the middle of the day due to low blood sugar. It really suits me and works for me (and I am a big guy, so 1100 calories might not seem like a lot but I function really well on it).
If anything, my brain at work is around 50% sharper, I act better in meetings and can think more strategically.
Having said all of that, I fully understand that such a low calorie low carb diet isn't sustainable in the long run. So once I have shed the excess weight, I will gradually re-introduce some carbs and some extra calories and keep doing so until I find an equilibrium.
33 lbs in 8 weeks ... ketosis works for me and has changed my life. Please understand; while ketosis "could" have some negative health effects, what's worse than being very obese and dealing with all the health problems caused by carrying around 33 lbs of extra fat all day every day?
Terry0
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