The #1 Cause of Obesity: Insulin

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  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    Another point. If insulin causes obesity, and diabetes is caused by chronic insulin resistance (type 2,) then why is unusual weight loss a symptom of Diabetes? Weight loss is a symptom of both Type 1 and Type 2 Diabetes, if insulin was really the culprit, shouldn't the symptoms of Type 2 Diabetes be weight gain instead?

    Weight gain (fat gain) is actually one of the causes of Type 2 Diabetes, not a symptom. That's part of the "lifestyle" aspect of the lifestyle + genetics for Diabetes risk factors.
  • fteale
    fteale Posts: 5,310 Member
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    tigersword, thanks for breaking down these studies so I can understand them and get a jist of what the summaries are saying. I can appreciate that you (and a lot of others) don't see anything in the research that shows a LCHF or Paleo type diets have anything to recommend them beyond personal preference because of the studies you listed.

    But when the very studies that were linked to to disprove that these diets have any advantage have statements saying the diets are shown to be more effective and further research needs to be done to understand why. Then you add to that the seventeen studies I listed earlier AND my own personal experience these last few weeks on a lower carb diet I just can't reconcile what you're saying the science proves with the growing success people seem to be having with these diets.

    I absolutely believe calories in/calories out on any diet works but I really can't understand the unwillingness to entertain the idea that there's something more driving the obesity epidemic other than laziy people eating too much. Hopefully time and more well conducted studies will tell.
    Some people still claim that weight loss studies do not show any advantage for low carb diets. Unbelievably enough, that is what many so called experts still believe.

    It’s either ignorance or science denial.

    There are at least seventeen modern scientific studies of the highest quality (RCT) that show significantly better weight loss with low carb diets:

    http://www.dietdoctor.com/science

    Why focus on weight loss instead of fat loss? Low carb diets initially have greater weight loss due to water/glycogen losses, but fat loss is not significantly different between the two. There's only like 2 or 3 tightly controlled studies that I know of off hand that show a metabolic advantage to low carb diets, the vast majority do not. Then if you were to look at all the ad lib studies and you still only have about 50% that show greater fat loss with low carb

    Listen to ACG. He's looking better than ever.

    And he knows from whence he speaks!

    Exactly, he clearly practices what he preaches.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Since the low carb crew loves to use observational data on why carbs are evil (Ah! Obesity has risen since 1980 and we started eating more carbs, herp derp)

    Low-carbohydrate diets and all-cause and cause-specific mortality: Two cohort Studies

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/?tool=pubmed

    Mediterranean and carbohydrate-restricted diets and mortality among elderly men: a cohort study in Sweden

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/92/4/967.full
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
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    Those studies are absolutely terrible and should never be used as a rational for diet or drug recommendations. It was those types of studies that we used to recommend low fat diets on and hormone replacement therapy for women and look how that turned out?

    Use them as a starting point for a hypothesis to test or see if they fall in line with what clinical trials show but for the love of your life do not base any health decisions on them. They are absolutely meaningless on their own.
  • roeann53
    roeann53 Posts: 124 Member
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    Just some stray thoughts here, and I don't want to get into the fight over low carb vs high protein vs high fat diets. I am eating what I would call a fairly balanced calorie controlled diet (maybe a little low on the carbs - but that's because I have a weakness for them) and have been losing weight steadily. My spouse is on a very low carb, high protein diet and doesn't count calories but has also lost about 40 pounds over the last year. Prior to dieting he had high blood pressure, and was a type 2 diabetic. He has always had very high cholesterol levels (525) (if untreated - thank goodness for lipitor and niacin), and had a quad bypass after an MI about 18 years ago. Since going on his 'diet' his BP has dropped to near normal as has his blood sugar levels (unless he cheats and eats a bag of candy or a pint of ice cream.) .

    I choose my diet because it fits me - I tried the low carb diet but I just didn't feel good on it so couldn't stick with it. Now my husband loves it, he's a meat eater, but is also a candy and a milk drinker/binger, while he's never saw a vegetable or even most carbs that he really likes. He's lost weight and is still obese according to the scales, but at least 2 of his risk factors (BP and insulin) are under control due to his diet.

    I think that ultimately what works for you will depend on your individual genetics and/or your psychological/social factors. I add genetics in here because a least one 'good' study I found linked a genetic factor to weight gain, the A risk allele of rs9939609 of the fat mass- and obesity-associated gene (FTO), and this defect may even impact what types of diets work best for individuals with this defect. As for me, I think my problem is purely psychological and social. I do mainly computer work, don't have time for a social life, don't sleep enough, don't exercise enough and live far from any family support system.. So, I get stressed, I eat, and I love carbs but don't really like most proteins.

    My personal beliefs about the need for individually designed diets and the importance of social support systems seems to be upheld by a recent study that compared three diets - high protein, high fat and moderation. It did find differences in the amount of weight lost between the diets. But, more importantly (I think), It found that "attendance (to group sessions) had a strong association with weight loss, and the association was similar across diet groups." This study (and others) suggest that motivation and/or social supports appear to be the strongest measure of (long term) success no matter what diet approach you use. The authors also suggest that designing a diet that fits the needs of the individual is important (1). In every study I've seen, no matter what diet was being tested, weight loss was central to decreased insulin levels.

    Going back to the original question/topic of this discussion- insulin, I do want to make a comment about insulin - type 2 diabetics are insulin resistant, so even as their insulin levels increase to compensate for resistance it doesn't help much. That's why they use the drugs to kick their production into overdrive. My family has a history of both type 1 and 2 diabetes so I've taken bioavailable cinnamon for years (my advice is don't take regular cinnamon that you would use for a spice). The research suggests that cinnamon helps overcome insulin resistance and thus reducing the systemic inflammation that can result from insulin problems, The inflammation can damage the pancreas, the heart, arteries etc. and set you up for heart attacks and strokes (among other things). Yes, almost all type 2 diabetes are overweight - whether the cart came before the horse I don't know. (2) (3) I do know that even though I have been over 100 pounds heavier than I should be, have a first degree family history of diabetes 1 and 2, had gestational diabetes, was hypoglycemia when I was a teen (glucose levels would drop to 40) and am obese so am at a very high risk for developing diabetes 1 and; when tested my blood sugar levels are always in the normal range. So maybe the cinnamon is helping protect me, or maybe not, as a researcher I never put a lot of stock in individual cases, even my own. As a by the by, my reactive C protein (indicates inflammatory processes are occurring in the body) was very high a couple of years ago, while my vitamin D levels were almost nonexistent. Low vitamin D levels are common among folks who are overweight and D is an anti-inflammatory agent among other things. As my dad died a 45 and my one brother died in his 30's due to massive heart attacks the C reactive number concerned my doc a bit. She gave me some IM injections of D and I starting taking relatively high doses of D3 as well as some other anti-inflammatory substances. After about 2 months my D levels had improved to low normal, while my reactive C levels dropped to within the normal range.

    If you are interested in knowing more about diabetes, its assessment and treatment etc the Standards of Medical Care in Diabetes—2011 might be of interest (4). Sorry this ended up being so long.. sometimes when I get started its hard to stop...

    (1) If you want to read the whole article comparing the 3 diets its located at: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748#t=articleResults
    (2) Full article on cinnamon and its effects is located here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2901047/?tool=pubmed
    (3) A consensus statement by a group of nutrition/diabetes experts http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3206399/?tool=pmcentrez
    (4) Standards of Medical Care in Diabetes—2011 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3006050/pdf/zdcS11.pdf?tool=pmcentrez
  • goatfishtwo
    goatfishtwo Posts: 21 Member
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    Arguing about this is as pointless as arguing about religion. Neither side's mind is going to be changed.

    I just wanna say one thing.

    Tiger, earlier you said that insulin doesn't decrease lipolysis. Guess what? Wrong.

    <3
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Those studies are absolutely terrible and should never be used as a rational for diet or drug recommendations. It was those types of studies that we used to recommend low fat diets on and hormone replacement therapy for women and look how that turned out?

    Use them as a starting point for a hypothesis to test or see if they fall in line with what clinical trials show but for the love of your life do not base any health decisions on them. They are absolutely meaningless on their own.

    I never said I put any faith in them, however they are as useful as posts and comments like these;
    They don't work the same way--in just a few weeks I can tell you that. My appetite has decreased which causes me to eat less, of course, but that doesn't explain the why of it.
    Of course it was ditched because that was the height of the low fat push and sugar was added to everything.........

    Where has that gotten us? Fat, sick and very unhealthy.
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
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    Thank you for posting, dr_roe. Like I mentioned earlier, the impetus to lower my carbs was for health concerns so I really appreciate your thoughtful post and the links you provided to diabetes research--I'll be sure to read them.
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
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    I never said I put any faith in them, however they are as useful as posts and comments like these;

    Then we agree.

    ETA:
    Although, I do think sharing your experience and observations with others is useful and appropriate for a discussion forum and I appreciate it when others take the time to do so--it's why I come here.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    Arguing about this is as pointless as arguing about religion. Neither side's mind is going to be changed.

    I just wanna say one thing.

    Tiger, earlier you said that insulin doesn't decrease lipolysis. Guess what? Wrong.

    <3
    Actually, I never said it didn't decrease lipolysis, I said it didn't PREVENT lipolysis. Here's the actual quote, in case you'd like to read it again:
    Does insulin prevent lipolysis? No. Does it reduce lipolysis? Of course it does, you've just eaten.
    Notice the part in bold?
  • Jules2Be
    Jules2Be Posts: 2,267 Member
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    tigersword, thanks for breaking down these studies so I can understand them and get a jist of what the summaries are saying. I can appreciate that you (and a lot of others) don't see anything in the research that shows a LCHF or Paleo type diets have anything to recommend them beyond personal preference because of the studies you listed.

    But when the very studies that were linked to to disprove that these diets have any advantage have statements saying the diets are shown to be more effective and further research needs to be done to understand why. Then you add to that the seventeen studies I listed earlier AND my own personal experience these last few weeks on a lower carb diet I just can't reconcile what you're saying the science proves with the growing success people seem to be having with these diets.

    I absolutely believe calories in/calories out on any diet works but I really can't understand the unwillingness to entertain the idea that there's something more driving the obesity epidemic other than laziy people eating too much. Hopefully time and more well conducted studies will tell.
    Some people still claim that weight loss studies do not show any advantage for low carb diets. Unbelievably enough, that is what many so called experts still believe.

    It’s either ignorance or science denial.

    There are at least seventeen modern scientific studies of the highest quality (RCT) that show significantly better weight loss with low carb diets:

    http://www.dietdoctor.com/science

    Why focus on weight loss instead of fat loss? Low carb diets initially have greater weight loss due to water/glycogen losses, but fat loss is not significantly different between the two. There's only like 2 or 3 tightly controlled studies that I know of off hand that show a metabolic advantage to low carb diets, the vast majority do not. Then if you were to look at all the ad lib studies and you still only have about 50% that show greater fat loss with low carb

    Listen to ACG. He's looking better than ever.

    And he knows from whence he speaks!

    I'm a fan.
  • InnerFatGirl
    InnerFatGirl Posts: 2,687 Member
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    Did I hear someone say Lustig?

    I'll start with this. http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

    Ok, now that that's out of the way. Insulin has pretty much nothing to do with obesity.

    Does insulin prevent lipolysis? No. Does it reduce lipolysis? Of course it does, you've just eaten. When you eat food, your body uses the food for energy first, and only goes back to relying on lipolysis after the food has been fully digested and utilized. Leptin (the hormone that signals satiety) has also been shown to limit lipolysis. As has every other hormone that has to do with satiety.

    Does insulin shuttle glucose directly to fat storage? NO. Absolutely not. Glucose is almost NEVER stored as fat. Insulin's primary job is to transport glucose to muscle cells and vital organs for normal body function. 87% of the fat in an adipose cell comes from lipids, not triglycerides.

    Insulin is a key hormone in muscle building and maintenance. It has well over 100 functions in the human body, fat storage is nowhere near the top of the list.

    And how do you care to explain protein eliciting high insulin responses? Protein and carbohydrates both spike insulin to similar levels when you eat. If insulin is what makes us fat, then protein must be just as bad as carbs.

    The entire argument is based on fear, and a hope that the person they are trying to convince has a lack of understanding of human biology. The insulin hypothesis just doesn't stand up to actual facts.

    As for low carb vs higher carb. They both cause weight loss due to a calorie deficit. Protein should always be constant, regardless of carb level. And then "weight loss" is a misleading term. Low carb diets lead to much higher losses of water weight, due to the reduction of stored glycogen in the muscles. Fat loss is identical, regardless of carb level.
    This is correct. The number one cause of obesity is eating more calories than you burn. The only way to reverse obesity is to eat fewer calories than you burn. There may be things that influence the number of calories you burn at rest,(i.e. thyroid issues) but the bottom line is that caloric excess is the major contributing factor. Eating a healthy, balanced diet of mostly unprocessed foods at a moderate deficit will do more for fat loss and insulin regulation than any deprivation or loading of certain macros.

    Thank you, guys.
  • desert_rhino
    desert_rhino Posts: 104 Member
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    ...I understand why low carbohydrate (low processed carb, anyway) eating is so important-- and so useful-- for me. When my insulin levels hang between a cozy 70 and 100, my appetite stabilizes. I never, ever, EVER feel ravenous. My body tells me when I'm hungry. When it does, I eat whole foods as much as possible. Lots of fat, moderate protein and low carb. I get lots of veggies and berries as well-- even Greek yogurt when I want it. It's the fact that my blood sugar never spikes that leaves me in control of my food and in turn, in control of myself.

    ...The real beauty of it, though, is that it makes weight loss TOLERABLE. It makes you not want to eat all the time. It is a real gift for the obese, although the first few days of it are absolute hell.

    This. All I do is keep my simple carbs in check and my hunger seems a lot more "normal." I can even eat a couple of ding dongs, as long as I eat them with something else to smooth out the insulin spike and subsequent sensation of STARVING hunger. I ate very low carb in 2007 when I was losing weight and getting in shape for the police academy, and was hardly ever really hungry. One day I ate 1/4 of a bakery-made apple turnover. About an hour later I was painfully, starvingly hungry. That sure learned me.

    Unfortunately, I also eat from boredom and especially depression/stress. So, I gained back, plus some, because I hadn't also learned to be accountable for what I eat and how I exercise. (calories in/calories out)

    This time, I'm taking that lesson and eating fairly low-carb, and adding in counting calories (thank the gods for MFP and my Android app...) and now intermittent fasting. THAT has taught me to reset what hunger FEELS like even when I'm not eating a lot of carbs. (Plus it helps with weekly calorie numbers, of course.) IF is also incredibly liberating. I don't feel like a slave to the clock and food. If I miss a meal, SO WHAT? That makes me happy, happy, happy.

    So, is insulin the bad guy? Not directly. Does low-carb work better than low-fat? For me, absolutely. Am I a zealot about it? Nope. It just works better for me FOR WEIGHT LOSS and HUNGER CONTROL. What I'm a zealot about is doing the math. I keep my metabolism up with good, mixed cardio and some resistance exercise along with interval training, and I LOG EVERYTHING.

    Accountable. Accountable. Accountable. But it is so much easier without the confounding factor of bouncing insulin/blood sugar levels.
  • goatfishtwo
    goatfishtwo Posts: 21 Member
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    Did I hear someone say Lustig?

    I'll start with this. http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

    Ok, now that that's out of the way. Insulin has pretty much nothing to do with obesity.

    Does insulin prevent lipolysis? No. Does it reduce lipolysis? Of course it does, you've just eaten. When you eat food, your body uses the food for energy first, and only goes back to relying on lipolysis after the food has been fully digested and utilized. Leptin (the hormone that signals satiety) has also been shown to limit lipolysis. As has every other hormone that has to do with satiety.

    Does insulin shuttle glucose directly to fat storage? NO. Absolutely not. Glucose is almost NEVER stored as fat. Insulin's primary job is to transport glucose to muscle cells and vital organs for normal body function. 87% of the fat in an adipose cell comes from lipids, not triglycerides.

    Insulin is a key hormone in muscle building and maintenance. It has well over 100 functions in the human body, fat storage is nowhere near the top of the list.

    And how do you care to explain protein eliciting high insulin responses? Protein and carbohydrates both spike insulin to similar levels when you eat. If insulin is what makes us fat, then protein must be just as bad as carbs.

    The entire argument is based on fear, and a hope that the person they are trying to convince has a lack of understanding of human biology. The insulin hypothesis just doesn't stand up to actual facts.

    As for low carb vs higher carb. They both cause weight loss due to a calorie deficit. Protein should always be constant, regardless of carb level. And then "weight loss" is a misleading term. Low carb diets lead to much higher losses of water weight, due to the reduction of stored glycogen in the muscles. Fat loss is identical, regardless of carb level.

    I'm pretty sick of people quoting this guy like he's the ultimate authority on nutrition and all of its components.
  • PaleoPath4Lyfe
    PaleoPath4Lyfe Posts: 3,161 Member
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    tigersword, thanks for breaking down these studies so I can understand them and get a jist of what the summaries are saying. I can appreciate that you (and a lot of others) don't see anything in the research that shows a LCHF or Paleo type diets have anything to recommend them beyond personal preference because of the studies you listed.

    But when the very studies that were linked to to disprove that these diets have any advantage have statements saying the diets are shown to be more effective and further research needs to be done to understand why. Then you add to that the seventeen studies I listed earlier AND my own personal experience these last few weeks on a lower carb diet I just can't reconcile what you're saying the science proves with the growing success people seem to be having with these diets.

    I absolutely believe calories in/calories out on any diet works but I really can't understand the unwillingness to entertain the idea that there's something more driving the obesity epidemic other than laziy people eating too much. Hopefully time and more well conducted studies will tell.
    Some people still claim that weight loss studies do not show any advantage for low carb diets. Unbelievably enough, that is what many so called experts still believe.

    It’s either ignorance or science denial.

    There are at least seventeen modern scientific studies of the highest quality (RCT) that show significantly better weight loss with low carb diets:

    http://www.dietdoctor.com/science

    Why focus on weight loss instead of fat loss? Low carb diets initially have greater weight loss due to water/glycogen losses, but fat loss is not significantly different between the two. There's only like 2 or 3 tightly controlled studies that I know of off hand that show a metabolic advantage to low carb diets, the vast majority do not. Then if you were to look at all the ad lib studies and you still only have about 50% that show greater fat loss with low carb

    Listen to ACG. He's looking better than ever.

    Wow, you are really on his jock.
  • dnhames
    dnhames Posts: 12 Member
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    Thanks for the reply, I feel the same way. Different carb calories impact me differently. I know that for me a calorie is not a calorie.
  • sweetiecorn
    sweetiecorn Posts: 115 Member
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    A friend linked me to Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt's website 45 days ago, which is exactly how long I have been following his "diet" for, to a T. So far I have lost 13lbs. There are a few foods on his lists which I take extra care with, especially tomato, as I know that is quite carby.
  • sweetiecorn
    sweetiecorn Posts: 115 Member
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    (That said I also count calories alongside LCHF. Peep my diet diary as it is public if you want to see an example)
  • CountryMom03
    CountryMom03 Posts: 258 Member
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    Why focus on weight loss instead of fat loss? Low carb diets initially have greater weight loss due to water/glycogen losses, but fat loss is not significantly different between the two. There's only like 2 or 3 tightly controlled studies that I know of off hand that show a metabolic advantage to low carb diets, the vast majority do not. Then if you were to look at all the ad lib studies and you still only have about 50% that show greater fat loss with low carb
    Actually, my focus is on the health benefits of a low carb diet since cancer, diabetes and heart disease are in my family. That's what convinced me to try what I considered a fad diet for the last twenty years.

    What I didn't expect was how I would feel after a few short weeks of lowering my carbs even though I'd been eating what I thought was a healthy diet of lean meat, nuts, low fat dairy, whole grains and plenty of fruits and vegetables for the last six months and losing weight just fine. So I guess the only thing further to add to that is I hope I'm part of the group who experience greater fat loss and that the research into low carb diets continues so we can find out more--and that someone else found the links I posted in the beginning helpful.


    great post!

    Awesome Post:) Thanks for sharing!!:) Also...theres a great documentary on Hulu called Fathead thats excellent also!:)

    Heres the link: http://www.hulu.com/watch/196879
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Why focus on weight loss instead of fat loss? Low carb diets initially have greater weight loss due to water/glycogen losses, but fat loss is not significantly different between the two. There's only like 2 or 3 tightly controlled studies that I know of off hand that show a metabolic advantage to low carb diets, the vast majority do not. Then if you were to look at all the ad lib studies and you still only have about 50% that show greater fat loss with low carb
    Actually, my focus is on the health benefits of a low carb diet since cancer, diabetes and heart disease are in my family. That's what convinced me to try what I considered a fad diet for the last twenty years.

    What I didn't expect was how I would feel after a few short weeks of lowering my carbs even though I'd been eating what I thought was a healthy diet of lean meat, nuts, low fat dairy, whole grains and plenty of fruits and vegetables for the last six months and losing weight just fine. So I guess the only thing further to add to that is I hope I'm part of the group who experience greater fat loss and that the research into low carb diets continues so we can find out more--and that someone else found the links I posted in the beginning helpful.


    great post!

    Awesome Post:) Thanks for sharing!!:) Also...theres a great documentary on Hulu called Fathead thats excellent also!:)

    Heres the link: http://www.hulu.com/watch/196879

    If by great and excellent, you mean, fills your head with nonsense, then I'd agree with you.