Plant Based Diet?
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happyfitr2d2 wrote: »I eat too much fat. The fat you eat is the fat you wear!
Fat doesn't make you fat though. Excess calories do.4 -
happyfitr2d2 wrote: »I remember Susan Powter! But McDougall is a medical doctor who has been doing this since the 70’s and treating patients with this concept since the 80’s. He was inspired by the Dr. At Duke University in the 1940’s who treated people with the rice diet.
I'm very aware of who McDougall is, I've actually read his book (I've read a variety of low carb books too), and I listen to lots of plant-based-related podcasts, but I'm talking about his use of the phrase "the fat you eat is the fat you wear," which is as silly as the opposite claim (that carbs make us fact) which itself is a reaction to the demonizing of fat that Powter was known for and that McDougall seems to want to keep pushing (or bring back). No specific macro makes us fat or cannot contribute to obesity if overeaten. Many people can overeat on starches and sugar or find it even harder to control those foods than fat. I've always found a combination hardest not to overdo, and then fats, and then plain sugar and starch (and for me it would be quite hard to overeat on plain starches), but it seems obvious to me that lots of people are otherwise: overeating starches like bread is one of the most common things people mention struggling with.
I find it not necessary to eliminate things to be satiated -- IME, satiety is quite easy with sufficient volume, veg, fiber, and protein, and that leaves plenty of room for whatever -- but satisfaction is a different matter. My main point, however, is that what works for satiety and satisfaction is pretty variable. (When I cut calories without having any special way of eating other than "generally healthy" to aim for, I found myself cutting out sweets (I don't have a huge sweet tooth so this was mainly a side effect of cutting out snacks and the "just because it's there" thing at my office), the side of my starch portion, and added fats -- I think I cut fat and carbs about equally.)
If the Starch Solution is appealing to you, I think it's fine (I do think protein is more significant than McDougall says and tend to personally lean more toward a focus on veg over starches, but you do need calories -- I just don't believe there's any reason to think that it's important to be super low fat absent some specific health problems, and don't think demonizing protein and fat is any better than demonizing carbs, and I do think McDougall tends to do so.
I would say that eating vegan is a separate thing, as I think that tends to be more about ethical concerns (and living an overall vegan lifestyle). I think it's great for that reason and can be very healthy, like I said I lean that way myself. What I think is false is the claim that eating meat or fat or dairy or whatever makes us fat and that eliminating it makes you automatically thin.5 -
Really, if someone without strictly eliminating them tended to overeat cheese, nuts, red wine (which has no fat, of course), so on, that doesn't mean a diet that does not eliminating them is going to be a worse diet. It just means that YOU individually may have problems moderating those foods. That's very similar to someone claiming that because they tend to overeat pasta or bread or juice or potatoes that it's necessary to eliminate those (and carbs are the problem).
I lost 95 lbs before I started experimenting with my diet (I did think eating healthfully was important and I cooked most of my own food from scratch, because that's what I was doing before too), and I lost all of that weight consuming olive oil and cheese (in moderation -- I cut back a lot because that was a food I'd eaten to excess) and nuts and so on. (I'm eating mostly plant-based now and actively try to include nuts daily, and also use some olive oil still, so I'd say this is a separate question from plant based.)
Not sure how "the fat you eat is the fat you wear" makes sense when many people who eat moderate to higher fat diets lose weight just fine. Saying something that is obviously not accurate doesn't strike me as a good way to promote a way of eating, as it loses credibility (same with the movies we started out talking about). I realize that some people find that low fat diets work well for them, or help with specific health issues, and I think trying it for that is a smart thing if you want to, but that doesn't mean that fat is what causes weight gain and carbs cannot if you eat low fat (which is one thing McDougall claims).
Another thing I've heard from plant-based evangelists, btw, including him, is that meat only tastes good if you put lots of stuff on it and mask the taste or some such, unlike potatoes and starches which taste good plain. I also think that's a ridiculous argument, since it's not my experience at all. If I end up giving up meat for good, it's not because it doesn't taste good -- as someone proud of her roasted chicken (and the roasted potatoes and other veg I eat with it are extra good if you let them roast a bit in the fat released from the chicken). And it's certainly not true that that chicken or a good steak or rack of lamb or whatever only tastes good covered with something. Salt and pepper is plenty (and it's not like I don't put salt and pepper on potatoes or veg).2 -
happyfitr2d2 wrote: »I eat too much fat. The fat you eat is the fat you wear!
No, the excess calories you eat are stored as the fat you wear.
For best health, most people should be eating at minimum 0.35-0.45 grams of fat daily per pound of healthy goal weight, ideally a decent proportion of it from healthful sources like olive oil, nuts, and avocados.
More is generally fine, for those without genetic or specific medical reasons for avoiding fats, as long as the fat calories don't drive out other needed nutrition or put one over an appropriate calorie goal. Likewise, saturated fats (from meats or whatever) are fine within reason, absent specific medical contraindications. This is mainstream nutritional guidance.
Granted, fats are calorie-dense. It's fine to limit them after one gets the minimums needed for adequate nutrition, if that helps someone achieve best satiation and pleasure within their calorie goal.
Getting nutritionally appropriate amounts of fat didn't prevent me from losing 50+ pounds in just under a year at age 59-60, while hypothyroid; nor did it prevent my cholesterol/triglycerides from declining to solidly normal values from decades at high levels; nor did it prevent my high blood pressure becoming low normal.
Everyone should pick his/her own preferred path. Urging poorly-scientifically-substantiated advice on others is a different matter.5 -
Check out Okinawa Diet or blue zone diet. Okinawan's historically live the longest on their plant based diet3 -
I think by "plant-based diet" OP means 100% plant based. The traditional Okinawan diet is much lower in animal products than the diet most people in the US eat today, no question, but it's not 100% plant based.
For alternative pyramids, these are great: https://oldwayspt.org/traditional-diets
(One of them is vegan and vegetarian.)
This is Harvard's Healthy Eating Plate in pyramid form: https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2012/10/healthy-eating-pyramid-huds-handouts.pdf2 -
ShannonDu777 wrote: »Check out Okinawa Diet or blue zone diet. Okinawan's historically live the longest on their plant based diet
In actual Okinawa, though plant foods are indeed very prominent, pork - among other meats - has a long-standing role.
https://www.japan-guide.com/e/e7128.html
http://okinawa-information.com/content/food-diet-okinawa-islands
Plant-based eating can be very healthful. Most people, IMO, eat too few veggies and fruits. Many people also eat lots of low-nutrient-density plant-sourced carb-y, fatty foods. Nutrition is important. Balance is important. Plant-based eating per se is not magical.2 -
Congrats on taking the step towards a more plant based lifestyle! I'm vegetarian but I'm trying to wean myself off cheese and eggs...which is so hard especially if you're trying to do low carb high fat as well. I eat a lot of leafy green vegetables and shop at asian super markets buying every variety of leafy green thing I can find. I eat a lot of garlic, ginger and coconut oil and consume chilli oil by the kilo every month. Tofu, mushrooms and Linda McCartney 'Sausages' are staples in my diet. As you can see it's pretty restrictive. However, this is not what I eat every meal of every day as I have a social life.
When I go to restaurants with friends and colleagues I give myself permission to eat vegetarian high carb. The key is to keep portions small, be flexible and have variety. More importantly: don't beat yourself up, don't feel guilty. Just have fun! Life is for living and sometimes you just need a face full of stilton. Whenever possible I try to drag my friends to the local Ethiopian restaurant. Ethiopian cuisine has A LOT of vegan dishes and they're real tasty and good value.
I have to say I eat this way for ethical and environmental reasons so it doesn't matter to me too much if it's not the healthiest diet option. The point isn't to lose weight, it's to give the planet a break and help the little critters. Weight loss and better health is a bonus, but you can easily just end up eating nothing but fried potatoes and put on 20 kg of fat. This can happen. Don't do this please. Save the critters, but not at the expense of your health!3 -
So I’ve been doing this now for about 20 days now and feel great. Not only am I seeing evidence of slimming down but I generally feel better, have more energy and crave healthier options when I snack. So far so good- going to see the doctor for a physical so should know more then also. But not regretting my decision. Anyone else new to this type of change want to share?5
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I have more energy; from complex carbs, I am sure and the weight is coming off. Also feel full snd like what I am eating... so many people on youtube and facebook groups with recipes and meal ideas. I want to invest in an Insta-pot. I use the crock pot, the rice cooker, but when I want great vegetable soup quick, I would like to have an insta-pot.2
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happyfitr2d2 wrote: »I eat too much fat. The fat you eat is the fat you wear!
The fat you eat is the fat that is used for myriad essential purposes in your body.
Excerpted from https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/what-is-body-fat.html/ :Since the mid-90’s (1994 to be specific), the image of the fat cell as nothing more than a passive player in the body has gone the way of the dodo. On top of its major role in energy storage, your fat cells do so much more in terms modulating your overall metabolism. Body fat is turning out to be an endocrine organ in its own right.
On top of its obvious role in disposing of dietary fat, fat cells have been shown to play roles in overall glucose metabolism, blood pressure, appetite, fuel utilization, and hormone production to name just a few. And with each week, it seems as if yet another role for the humble fat cell in modulating human metabolism is found. I’m not going to get into massive detail in this book (beyond what’s applicable to the stubborn fat issue) but want to make you aware of some of what’s going on in fat cells.
On top of storing and releasing triglycerides, your fat cells also produce hormones themselves. A partial list of the compounds released from your fat cells would include leptin, which is involved in appetite, hormone levels, fat burning and muscle loss, not to mention dozens of other systems; angiotensin II, which is involved in blood pressure regulation and even controls blood flow to the fat cell itself ; Tumor necrosis factor-alpha, which has many varied functions including fat burning, immune functioning, and cell death ; IGF-1, which is an anabolic hormone ; inflammatory cytokines like Interleukin-6, which is involved in immune function among other things ; various prostaglandins, nitric oxide, acylation stimulation protein, resistin, adiponectin and I could probably list a half dozen more if I wanted to.
Fat cells are also one of the major sites of hormone metabolism. Testosterone is converted to estrogen (via the enzyme aromatase) in fat cells in both men and women. In fact, most of the estrogen in males (and in post-menopausal women) comes from the conversion of testosterone in fat cells. Carrying more body fat for males means not only more estrogen, but also less testosterone (yet another reason for athletes to avoid getting too fat). Athletes who use anabolic steroids (or even prohormones) without using an anti-aromatase will get more conversion to estrogen if they are carrying more body fat. The metabolism of other hormones such as DHEA and androstenedione also occurs in fat cells.
Cortisol is also metabolized in fat cells, via an enzyme 11-beta-steroid dehydrogenase (11-beta-HSD) and there is some indicaton that differences in the activity of this enzyme may be related to how the body handles/produces cortisol and obesity.
And that’s just a quick look at some of the things that your fat cells are doing in your body. With each week, researchers seem to turn up more. As a quick tangent, the discovery that fat cells were more than a passive place to store energy has revolutionized the study of obesity. So instead of dozens of studies indicating why fiber is important for weight loss, there are now hundreds/thousands of studies dealing with all of the myriad hormones that are released from fat cells, and how they affect metabolism.5 -
I made the switch back in January!! I am so happy I did it!! Add me!!!2
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This is just my own experience but I was a vegetarian for four years in my late teens and early twenties and it didn't really work well for me. I like to cook and I ate a lot of fresh food, and a lot of tofu, beans, and grains, but I just never really felt satisfied by my diet and I never stopped craving meat. Also, my fingernails got very, very soft for some reason. Once I started eating meat again, after about six months my fingernails were hard again. Since then I've tried to go vegetarian a few times but each time I stop because I feel desperate for meat after a few days. I'm an intelligent person and I have enjoyed researching vegetarian nutrition and I don't feel that a lack of knowledge was my problem, especially given that many people go vegetarian with only a moderate amount of research. I would really like to be vegetarian or even vegan for ethical reasons but I can't do it and feel healthy. I think some people just can't do it and I'm one of them. However, if you can do it, I agree that it has LOTS of health benefits. I applaud your efforts and I hope it goes well for you
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This is just my own experience but I was a vegetarian for four years in my late teens and early twenties and it didn't really work well for me. I like to cook and I ate a lot of fresh food, and a lot of tofu, beans, and grains, but I just never really felt satisfied by my diet and I never stopped craving meat. Also, my fingernails got very, very soft for some reason. Once I started eating meat again, after about six months my fingernails were hard again. Since then I've tried to go vegetarian a few times but each time I stop because I feel desperate for meat after a few days. I'm an intelligent person and I have enjoyed researching vegetarian nutrition and I don't feel that a lack of knowledge was my problem, especially given that many people go vegetarian with only a moderate amount of research. I would really like to be vegetarian or even vegan for ethical reasons but I can't do it and feel healthy. I think some people just can't do it and I'm one of them. However, if you can do it, I agree that it has LOTS of health benefits. I applaud your efforts and I hope it goes well for you
That really sounds like an iron deficiency, to be honest. How are your iron levels normally? Is this something that you have to pay attention to?1 -
This is just my own experience but I was a vegetarian for four years in my late teens and early twenties and it didn't really work well for me. I like to cook and I ate a lot of fresh food, and a lot of tofu, beans, and grains, but I just never really felt satisfied by my diet and I never stopped craving meat. Also, my fingernails got very, very soft for some reason. Once I started eating meat again, after about six months my fingernails were hard again. Since then I've tried to go vegetarian a few times but each time I stop because I feel desperate for meat after a few days. I'm an intelligent person and I have enjoyed researching vegetarian nutrition and I don't feel that a lack of knowledge was my problem, especially given that many people go vegetarian with only a moderate amount of research. I would really like to be vegetarian or even vegan for ethical reasons but I can't do it and feel healthy. I think some people just can't do it and I'm one of them. However, if you can do it, I agree that it has LOTS of health benefits. I applaud your efforts and I hope it goes well for you
Many people who report feeling unsatisfied on a vegetarian diet are actually responding to a low fat diet. I personally feel much more satisfied when I'm getting plenty of fat, including some saturated fat.
No idea if that was a factor for you, but it's something I've seen when helping newer vegans/vegetarians.1 -
I've been on plant based diets, including fully vegetarian but never vegan, from time-to-time and I've been on more animal based diets. Right now I would probably be around half-and-half. I really don't see any particular benefits to being plant based nor too many cons. If you are going to cut out all animal products then you have to be careful in planning your meals for certain nutrients but nothing that people aren't able to do without too much of a stretch.
In the end I would say try it but don't gauge success or failure on whether or not you "feel better" or "have more energy" because that's pretty subjective. My suggestion is to see how sustainable you find it for you and your lifestyle. If it fits well and works for you then run with it. If not, then tweak it till it works for you.1 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I've been on plant based diets, including fully vegetarian but never vegan, from time-to-time and I've been on more animal based diets. Right now I would probably be around half-and-half. I really don't see any particular benefits to being plant based nor too many cons. If you are going to cut out all animal products then you have to be careful in planning your meals for certain nutrients but nothing that people aren't able to do without too much of a stretch.
In the end I would say try it but don't gauge success or failure on whether or not you "feel better" or "have more energy" because that's pretty subjective. My suggestion is to see how sustainable you find it for you and your lifestyle. If it fits well and works for you then run with it. If not, then tweak it till it works for you.
You're right, in many cases there is no intrinsic benefit. The only time I ever advocate someone become vegan is when that is what falls in line with their efforts. In most every instance, barring sicknesses that impact this, it's about dietary balance, adding in more nutritious food no matter the source, and meeting macro and micro requirements.
One can be healthy on most if not all logically constructed ways of eating, but not all ways of eating are equal and plant based can easily be among that group if one isn't careful.1 -
I have seen significant changes in my health since becoming whole food plant based. I have lost 16lbs in 7 weeks and my energy levels are up. I still manage about 60-80 grams of protein a day.1
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BecomingBane wrote: »That really sounds like an iron deficiency, to be honest. How are your iron levels normally? Is this something that you have to pay attention to?
No, that is not something I've ever really had to worry about that I know of. Who knows, it could very well have been an iron deficiency. I think my dr suggested it might have been a calcium deficiency, but who knows. I never stopped using dairy products, so maybe an iron deficiency makes more sense. A time previous to that, when I was fifteen or sixteen, I was vegetarian for several months and my period stopped and didn't start again until I had been eating meat for a couple of months.
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