Medical Conditions Which Affect Weight: Separating Fact From Fiction
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How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
What does that mean, does not drop as fast as when they are younger? I'm 37 and I haven't had any special problems losing weight compared to my 20's.0 -
I've also wondered if the naturally thin might be the outliers, being relatively inefficient at processing calories. They apparently can take in more CI without the corresponding weight gain. The overweight then would be efficient calorie consumers. Great for surviving famine, of course. Not so handy in abundance.
Right? Darned evolution and it's sticky problems in the era of technology and abundance... We've gone and erased Natural Selection. At least in the first world. No longer does the child with a genetic "flaw" (using that term only in relation to how inefficient caloric processing would affect a child in a hunter/gatherer situation as our ancestors had, not like it's wrong really) get left to die while those who are heartier and more capable of surviving that famine survive to procreate. It's very very interesting to see what human morality and empathy have done to the genome. Not bad, just amazing.
That would be a great discussion to have (how killing natural selection has shaped today's gene pool) about how we came to be as we are today, with such a high obesity rate standing right beside a whole slew of people who consume the heck out of food and stay skinny (read: all my friends)0 -
As someone who's third standard deviation in all sorts of ways, I get that there are outliers. That said, the metabolic range for the overwhelming majority of the population is fairly narrow for those of similar size.CoffeeNCardio wrote: »I've also wondered if the naturally thin might be the outliers, being relatively inefficient at processing calories. They apparently can take in more CI without the corresponding weight gain. The overweight then would be efficient calorie consumers. Great for surviving famine, of course. Not so handy in abundance.
Right? Darned evolution and it's sticky problems in the era of technology and abundance... We've gone and erased Natural Selection. At least in the first world. No longer does the child with a genetic "flaw" (using that term only in relation to how inefficient caloric processing would affect a child in a hunter/gatherer situation as our ancestors had, not like it's wrong really) get left to die while those who are heartier and more capable of surviving that famine survive to procreate. It's very very interesting to see what human morality and empathy have done to the genome. Not bad, just amazing.
That would be a great discussion to have (how killing natural selection has shaped today's gene pool) about how we came to be as we are today, with such a high obesity rate standing right beside a whole slew of people who consume the heck out of food and stay skinny (read: all my friends)0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
What does that mean, does not drop as fast as when they are younger? I'm 37 and I haven't had any special problems losing weight compared to my 20's.
Your TDEE drops about 100 cals per decade, but how much of that is due to lifestyle changes and reduced muscle mass is open to debate...my personal opinion is that it's all of it so can be compensated for by building muscle0 -
This is not a discussion about short term medical crisis which could result in death leading to weight loss, which is what DKA is no? Therefore it is not relevant to a sustainable, long term, health improving weight loss forum. I wasn't even involved or poking around the forums at the time that discussion originally came up and I am already sick to the back teeth of it being trotted out as if it should be a consideration in every single thread about being struggling to lose. The weight loss is a side effect of a short term medical emergency and from what I can gather is mostly about dehydration.
As for the OP, CICO is king always. There are conditions and medications that can complicate working out how that equation works for the individual but gathering data over 6-8 weeks and doing some basic maths can nail it down specifically enough for most people to have success losing/maintaining/gaining weight.
I have been on and off psychoactive medications over the last 3 years and I gained a bunch of weight onto my already overweight body due to increased appetite (mirtazapine being the most marked and I subsequently discovered it's used in cats as an appetite stimulant!). So the medication didn't cause my weight gain but it was a contributing factor for sure. I am currently off medication mostly and am doing my best to work on my relationship with food and change my habits enough that when I probably inevitably have to be medicated again I at least have a fighting chance of not ending up where I was before weight wise.
So medical conditions are a factor but knowledge about CICO is essential. Really it should be part of biology classes at school, perhaps it is and I'm just forgetting!0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »First let me say I know this can be a delicate topic, so I'd really hope to keep this discussion as civil as possible.
For example, I have hypothyroidism, but I know that undiagnosed hypothyroidism is only responsible for a slowed metabolism which accounts for a minor weight gain. Overall caloric intake will ultimately determine how much weight is gained before diagnosis.
Some people with conditions which account for only minor metabolic slow downs gain a lot of weight and it's frustrating for them, so that's why I'd like the discussion to tread lightly.
With that in mind...
A lot of medical issues/medications effect weight and are mentioned on the boards frequently. But there are a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions surrounding them and their ultimate impact on weight loss.
I know we have members of the medical and scientific communities among us, I'm hoping they weigh in on this thread with some real knowledge to get information out there.
I should mention that this thread is for conditions which impact weight in any way, including those which include rapid weight loss.
For example, I have celiac disease. When it reached a crisis point before diagnosis, I lost 30 pounds in 2 months due to malabsorption issues. It was not a pleasant experience, I literally was not fully digesting food or liquid and was constantly dehydrated. My body turned to its fat stores for energy. At the time, I had a starting weigh of 160 pounds.
So, weigh in (see what I did there?) with your experiences and expertise so we can, together, separate fact from fiction!
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midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Another type of fiction is that certain drugs cause weight gain. Well... yes and no. They don't directly just magically produce weight gain. They either lower metabolic rate or increase appetite, but that would only account for a certain margin of gain. Gains beyond that point come down to consumption.
Fiction is a loaded word, but it scans nicely with fact, so I went with it. I'd like this thread to explore the real causes of weight gain or loss with medical conditions as you did with explaining what happened to your friend there.
I find when we truly break these things down, it leads to understanding the component issues so that they can be addressed.
BOOM!
It's disturbing to so often see people say "blah blah" caused my weight gain. NO, eating too much causes weight gain. You may have different caloric needs now, for whatever reason, but it still comes down to CICO.
People attribute their weight gain to many things, don't they? I see threads here all the time where new jobs or break ups "caused" weight gain.
I don wonder if we truly know the effect of some medicines, however. So I'll reserve comment on those.
I do believe that with some conditions caloric needs may not remain constant, thus making it even harder to find the sweet spot for losing.
Yes. People blame all sorts of things on weight gain. On the opposite side of the coin, (I'll use myself as an example), when going through my second divorce with my husband (two young kids), I had dropped 40 pounds in 3 months. I was to a very, unhealthy weight for my size and it was a very scary time, when I could actually see this. The point is that "divorce" didn't make me lose weight. NOT eating did. Again, it comes down to CICO.
Calorie needs are never constant, they are affected by such a variety of factors that CICO isn't as simple as many seem to present here.
It's like saying it is all due to breathing and oxidation reactions! (Which is true.) But it doesn't explain how that is regulated.
What part of the CICO equation describes HOW your divorce affected HOW MUCH you ate?
Imagine if we could reduce all autopsy to "well the heart stopped, and then the brain signal stopped too". How is important. Oh, but it all comes down to heart and brain function!!
CICO is only part of the process and a complex part at that.
PS - glad you recovered.
I think this is something I, and others, may neglect to factor in adequately whenever we address the latest repeat of derp in an effort to stop it in its tracks
Bears thinking on
+1
When trying to simplify a message to someone who clearly doesn't have even a basic understanding of calorie management, we often don't convey the nuances behind the equation.
This is my point as well.
It seems to me that your point is that CICO doesn't actually apply in some cases, whereas the nuances are actually about how to determine the CI and CO sides of the equation.
CICO is not clearly defined in every thread where it is used. Explaining the nuances behind the equation, as you are using it, would go a long way. Most users seem to imply (but rarely explicitly state) that the CO part of CICO is RMR + exercise. In that case, my example is of weight loss not explained by CICO. If the definition of CO is expanded to include excretion of energy through pee, poop, and vomiting; then it is included in CICO. Most users don't seem to recognize that as part of CICO, though, while exclaiming there is nothing possible outside of that almighty equation.
It all comes down to absolutes. Many users on MFP use absolute responses when it comes to things like CICO, which dismisses a lot of known circumstances. Even if 80%-90% of users can use the simple CICO, it still isn't fair to the other users who are asking for help and "shouted down" because their experiences don't match CICO and MFP masses just want to call them liars.
Please this is not in any way helpful to the majority of people, and frankly, someone in an emergency medical situation would not be posting on a message board for advice.
Your situation is not in ANY way applicable.
When trying to purposely lose body fat, CICO is the only explanation need. Yes, it can be more complex than it appears on the surface, but you are not being helpful in the least by pointing out medical emergencies here.0 -
I have Thyriod disease anybody else with it is welcome to add me xx0
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How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
What does that mean, does not drop as fast as when they are younger? I'm 37 and I haven't had any special problems losing weight compared to my 20's.
Your TDEE drops about 100 cals per decade, but how much of that is due to lifestyle changes and reduced muscle mass is open to debate...my personal opinion is that it's all of it so can be compensated for by building muscle
The algorithms adjust for age though, so if I'm calculating my TDEE on a regular basis the added noise from my age would be compensated for. I might have to eat 1800 cals to lose weight vs. 2000 cals (just using for conversation), but the act of losing at a deficit is the same, no?
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I had full on metabolic syndrome
High blood pressure
Type 2 diabetic
Weight
Cholesterol
The whole enchilada
Ha
Calorie deficit in the confines of limited simple sugars with exercise was the best medicine per my doctor. Metformin can supposedly help weight loss. But soon after I started losing weight and went on a lower carb diet I no longer needed Metformin. So I can't say it helps or hinders weight loss for me. Diet and exercise definitely helped.
All of those lifestyle related conditions are gone now.
A healthy diet of fibrous veggies and meat worked well for me.
I'm lucky. Some are hit much harder by medications and some can't diet away health issues
I wish the best to those people and those that love them.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
I'm pretty sure most people understand there are medical conditions that cause massive amounts of water retention, and massive amounts of water loss. Those things are exceptions to the day in, day out issues people deal with in regards to management of chronic disease. My type 1 diabetic uncle had issues with water retention to the point where he would get water in his lungs. This did contribute to his weight. The reason he was obese was still primarily CICO.
When I gave birth to my 11lb 4oz son I lost 25 lbs due to water retention from being pregnant baby, and having HBP. That has nothing to do with the fact that I was also obese, and had to lose weight.
It isn't just water, there is fat loss with DKA. As I explained earlier, your body breaks down fat to convert it into glucose and then removes that glucose through urine. Again... this is not healthy, but it is what happens to cause fat loss without exercise.
It's clear that this episode of hypovolemic shock was very impactful on your life. You lost a lot of weight.
Can you point to an instance when bringing this up has made a meaningful change in someone's health journey? It's an unlikely scenario for most people and the fact of the matter is, MFP is built around a caloric deficit and that should be the focus because barring a tiny percentage of medical conditions that may change the way someone implements CICO, it still works.
How is it impacting your journey NOW? What are you doing differently NOW because of it? Do you count calories? Are you in a deficit? Because if you're not tracking with MFP and believe in deficit, why are you here? It's an honest question.
Hyperglycemic, not hypoglycemic.
I don't have enough detailed information about what everyone does on the MFP boards to say whether it has caused a meaningful change in someone else's journey. There are things like DKA that cause variations in the almighty CICO formula. The specific medical phenomena may be different for different users, but it still remains that CICO is not absolute. I'm hoping other users will understand that. I don't know whether it has helped or not (I get the sense that it has not because those users are unwilling to accept that CICO is not absolute).
I do count calories, and I am eating in a deficit. That alone is not enough for me, as I am doing other things to manage my health beyond calorie counting. I'm losing weight at a safe rate, not just due to CICO, but because of a combination of all factors. Counting calories is an important piece of the puzzle, but it isn't the only piece.
Where did you get hyper/hypoglycemic from? I was referring to the shock syndrome that you would have incurred from losing that much fluid in your body that rapidly, or hypovolemia.
I'm glad it's working for you because I can't imagine the lasting damage that left on your body. That aside, CICO still works. If you don't believe that, you should find a forum that specializes in medical conditions, rather than CICO.
Sorry, I thought you were trying to write hypoglycemia and misspelled it.
I've not experienced any long-term negative effects from that particular issue, which happened almost 16 years ago. CICO does work for me, but not as absolutely as many users believe (maybe it works perfectly for them, maybe not... they seem to imply it does).
You are still employing CICO whatever you are doing, midwesterner. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you feel makes it not work absolutely? Is it because the numbers don't work as expected?
I have made this point before, and I will continue to make it -- CICO is a complicated equation, and energy balance is something that functions outside of our personal ability to track and account for every factor involved in its functioning. Simply because you can't get a grasp from the outside and calculate and predict precisely the CO portion does not mean CICO is flawed. It means your ability to calculate the factors involved in that side of the equation are limited.
I see this kind of thinking a lot on the forums, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some people to accept that TDEE calculators, exercise burn calculators and other similar things are all averages. I also don't understand how people can hope to get exact numbers when they know they have confounding factors influencing how their body burns energy.
I really don't understand the disconnect.0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
What does that mean, does not drop as fast as when they are younger? I'm 37 and I haven't had any special problems losing weight compared to my 20's.
Your TDEE drops about 100 cals per decade, but how much of that is due to lifestyle changes and reduced muscle mass is open to debate...my personal opinion is that it's all of it so can be compensated for by building muscle
The algorithms adjust for age though, so if I'm calculating my TDEE on a regular basis the added noise from my age would be compensated for. I might have to eat 1800 cals to lose weight vs. 2000 cals (just using for conversation), but the act of losing at a deficit is the same, no?
Absolutely
Interestingly I'm currently having to eat 100-200 calories more than the MFP calculations plus my activity and exercise adjustments (on fitbit and HRM) mean I keep losing in maintenance. I put that down to lifting
And to make this relevant to the thread, I believe it speaks to ageing and perimenopause0 -
I had to take a few different drugs via mouth and IV drip that have weight gain as a side effect. The drugs were to treat cancer.
I believe it's CICO. It can be very difficult to cut calories enough to get to point where you either maintain or lose with the combination of the side effects of the medication(s).
It took me 18 months to feel normal after treatment ended. Not having the drugs in my system has made it easier to eat at a deficit and lose. Very happy that I only take a multivitamin and Biotin now.
On the other hand, I participated in a drug trial towards the end of treatment. One of the side effects is weight loss. During that time I stopped gaining and maintained.
While it's CICO, medication can definitely change your calorie allowance. If you are on multiple drugs that cause your metabolism to slow, it's very easy to gain weight.
The "sick" part of all this is that one of my first thoughts after being diagnosed is that I would lose the 20 lbs I had been carrying. Really bothers me that I had that thought. Especially when I felt that way because of the mirror over health.
Edited to clarify - The drugs I was on did not add fat to my body. The side effects of increased appetite and slowed metabolism did.
The drug I took that had a side effect of weight loss didn't make fat disappear, it's just that everything I ate went right thru me - sorry to be gross.0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
I think a lot of this has to do with us just not moving as much as we use to. Sure our BMR drops, thus less calories, but as you said still CICO. No one said it doesn't suck, because hell, I want that extra damn oreo.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
DKA, which results in a loss of fluid is not relevant to a site where people are looking for meaningful, lasting fat loss.
You continually bringing up an emergency medical condition to "prove" CICO is wrong is spurious. It just proves that there are medical conditions that can impact the fluid levels in the body and that the human body carries a lot of fluid in it.
It is not meaningful to constantly interject "CICO doesn't always apply" into discussions based on your experience with fluid loss and dehydration, just as it's not meaningful for me to bring up my experience with celiac disease.
Again, it isn't just fluid. There is fat loss as well.
Ah, no. I see you didn't really read my post last night addressing your misinformed posting addressing this issue.
1) you are discussing something that happened back when you were a teenager, and you were in DKA. People in DKA experience hallucinations, disorientation, and periods of unconsciousness, so it's highly unlikely that you are remembering any of what happened clearly in any way, shape or form.
2) While people in DKA do experience high volumes of urine output, unless you continued to intake something (water, soda, something) eventually after you ran out of vomit and then bile (the dark stuff) you would only dry heave. It's not physically possible for your body to give you anything else to vomit out unless your stomach or esophagus ruputured and you were vomiting blood, and if that had happened, you most likely would have had surgery.
3) While it is true that the adipose cells do release fatty acids in a desperate attempt to provide an energy source for gluconeogenosis, it's only the fatty acids that are released. There isn't time for a complete breakdown of adipose tissue and fat loss. When this happens, the blood becomes incredibly acidic. Disrupting the acid/base balance of the blood causes the body to try to compensate by forcing the respiratory drive into high gear (hyperventilation) to blow off as much carbon dioxide as possible. (carbon dioxide is an acid in the blood) the respiratory muscles can't work that hard, tire out, and unless the person is in a hospital where a sodium bicarb drip can be given to compensate the acidity of the blood, the person will stop breathing and die.
4) As I said last night, if the body actually dumped that much fat into the blood in just a couple of days, the additional volume would be so great, the blood pressure would rise too high, and the risk of either stroke or aneurysm would be incredible.
5) Considering that the majority of the body is comprised of water, and that it doesn't take much loss to create dehydration at a dangerous level, if you lost that much weight in a few days and it was all water weight, you would have died of dehydration despite the best efforts of hospital staff to save you.0 -
thorsmom01 wrote: »Great thread carol !
I have nothing to add as far as medical conditions but would like to mention prescription medicine .
When I was first starting out, I went to the doctor and said " my depo birth control shot is causing me not to lose weight !"
He said, that's actually a myth. Google the words" birth control and weight gain" , you'll see thousands saying the same thing but its only because that's how misunderstood people are. He explained that it can cause an increased appetite , thus causing people to eat at a surplus and gain weight. But people like to leave out the surplus part and go straight to the weight gain part . if you ask 100 girls did they gain weight on depo, 75 will say yes and zero will admit to overeating. So that's how the " weight gain from depo " thing goes.
It came down to calories. Not the shot . once I truly was ready to give up the excuses, I was able to lose weight.
There Will always be people who enjoy having an excuse. They really don't want it. I was once one of those people so I know all about it.
Its often very hard for people to let go off the myths and excuses. Weight loss will always come down to calories . some will have to work a little harder then others but it still comes down to calories .
x2 for me as well..depo for 5 years then Mirena now Depo again.
I did my research and found out it's "increase in appetite" that causes the weight gain.
Even my new doctor mentioned the "weight gain" yesterday when I got my refill by saying it doesn't have to happen just watch intake.
For me I go from one extreme to another with Iron levels...lethargic when it's low (CO part is screwy) and B12 issues...
all can be treated and I am still 60lbs lighter. Using Depo/Mirena and having issues.0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
What does that mean, does not drop as fast as when they are younger? I'm 37 and I haven't had any special problems losing weight compared to my 20's.
Your TDEE drops about 100 cals per decade, but how much of that is due to lifestyle changes and reduced muscle mass is open to debate...my personal opinion is that it's all of it so can be compensated for by building muscle
My dad, who is in his eighties and is in end stage COPD, noted a marked slow down of healing recovery. It could be from a progessive lack of oxygen but there's a reason that many elective surgeries are not recommended for people over sixty-five.
I am in my fifties and I've noted I do not need as many calories as when I was younger. Now, my needs went up when my activity went up, but the general trend is that I need less. If I had not adjusted my eating habits as I got older, I'd get fat on less.0 -
My cortisol issues were not due to daily stress from life. They were due to 2 separate trauma situations. Fight or flight. After the 2nd episode about 6 weeks after the first it took my 3 days to stop shaking. Longer for my breathing to return to normal. I've read it can take months to recover from these kind of episodes. I also found out this week in severely vitamin D deficient which can also cause problems. (Side note I also have celiac and hashimotos but those are very well regulated and have not hindered weight loss.) In my case I can see the insulin resistance more than a non diabetic. My insulin needs more than doubled with both traumas and it's taking about 3 weeks each time to come back down to normal. Crazy stuff.
(Not sure why he dka discussion is happening here. Yes you quickly lose weight and either die or take insulin.)
that's not cortisol - that's adrenaline. It surges through your body in emergent situations to give you the energy to either fight or flee.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
DKA, which results in a loss of fluid is not relevant to a site where people are looking for meaningful, lasting fat loss.
You continually bringing up an emergency medical condition to "prove" CICO is wrong is spurious. It just proves that there are medical conditions that can impact the fluid levels in the body and that the human body carries a lot of fluid in it.
It is not meaningful to constantly interject "CICO doesn't always apply" into discussions based on your experience with fluid loss and dehydration, just as it's not meaningful for me to bring up my experience with celiac disease.
Again, it isn't just fluid. There is fat loss as well.
Ah, no. I see you didn't really read my post last night addressing your misinformed posting addressing this issue.
1) you are discussing something that happened back when you were a teenager, and you were in DKA. People in DKA experience hallucinations, disorientation, and periods of unconsciousness, so it's highly unlikely that you are remembering any of what happened clearly in any way, shape or form.
2) While people in DKA do experience high volumes of urine output, unless you continued to intake something (water, soda, something) eventually after you ran out of vomit and then bile (the dark stuff) you would only dry heave. It's not physically possible for your body to give you anything else to vomit out unless your stomach or esophagus ruputured and you were vomiting blood, and if that had happened, you most likely would have had surgery.
3) While it is true that the adipose cells do release fatty acids in a desperate attempt to provide an energy source for gluconeogenosis, it's only the fatty acids that are released. There isn't time for a complete breakdown of adipose tissue and fat loss. When this happens, the blood becomes incredibly acidic. Disrupting the acid/base balance of the blood causes the body to try to compensate by forcing the respiratory drive into high gear (hyperventilation) to blow off as much carbon dioxide as possible. (carbon dioxide is an acid in the blood) the respiratory muscles can't work that hard, tire out, and unless the person is in a hospital where a sodium bicarb drip can be given to compensate the acidity of the blood, the person will stop breathing and die.
4) As I said last night, if the body actually dumped that much fat into the blood in just a couple of days, the additional volume would be so great, the blood pressure would rise too high, and the risk of either stroke or aneurysm would be incredible.
5) Considering that the majority of the body is comprised of water, and that it doesn't take much loss to create dehydration at a dangerous level, if you lost that much weight in a few days and it was all water weight, you would have died of dehydration despite the best efforts of hospital staff to save you.
Thank you, as a medical professional, for explaining the condition in terms I can understand. I hope this puts paid to the idea that there are things which cause fat loss that aren't explained by CICO, which is the argument midwesterner uses to undermine the validity of CICO.
The purpose of this thread was to discuss how medical conditions might effect weight loss or gain for people, you have explained the mechanism by which DKA effects weight loss very well here. Thank you. It's clear that it's not applicable to the general user as I believe most of the diabetics on the forum manage their conditions well.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
DKA, which results in a loss of fluid is not relevant to a site where people are looking for meaningful, lasting fat loss.
You continually bringing up an emergency medical condition to "prove" CICO is wrong is spurious. It just proves that there are medical conditions that can impact the fluid levels in the body and that the human body carries a lot of fluid in it.
It is not meaningful to constantly interject "CICO doesn't always apply" into discussions based on your experience with fluid loss and dehydration, just as it's not meaningful for me to bring up my experience with celiac disease.
Again, it isn't just fluid. There is fat loss as well.
Ah, no. I see you didn't really read my post last night addressing your misinformed posting addressing this issue.
1) you are discussing something that happened back when you were a teenager, and you were in DKA. People in DKA experience hallucinations, disorientation, and periods of unconsciousness, so it's highly unlikely that you are remembering any of what happened clearly in any way, shape or form.
2) While people in DKA do experience high volumes of urine output, unless you continued to intake something (water, soda, something) eventually after you ran out of vomit and then bile (the dark stuff) you would only dry heave. It's not physically possible for your body to give you anything else to vomit out unless your stomach or esophagus ruputured and you were vomiting blood, and if that had happened, you most likely would have had surgery.
3) While it is true that the adipose cells do release fatty acids in a desperate attempt to provide an energy source for gluconeogenosis, it's only the fatty acids that are released. There isn't time for a complete breakdown of adipose tissue and fat loss. When this happens, the blood becomes incredibly acidic. Disrupting the acid/base balance of the blood causes the body to try to compensate by forcing the respiratory drive into high gear (hyperventilation) to blow off as much carbon dioxide as possible. (carbon dioxide is an acid in the blood) the respiratory muscles can't work that hard, tire out, and unless the person is in a hospital where a sodium bicarb drip can be given to compensate the acidity of the blood, the person will stop breathing and die.
4) As I said last night, if the body actually dumped that much fat into the blood in just a couple of days, the additional volume would be so great, the blood pressure would rise too high, and the risk of either stroke or aneurysm would be incredible.
5) Considering that the majority of the body is comprised of water, and that it doesn't take much loss to create dehydration at a dangerous level, if you lost that much weight in a few days and it was all water weight, you would have died of dehydration despite the best efforts of hospital staff to save you.
I did read your point last night and responded. In regards to these points:
1. I explained what happened, and have before and after weights from a week prior to entering DKA and several days after returning to a normal state. You are basically saying that I hallucinated before and after being in DKA... in other words, you are just calling me a liar.
2. I was drinking water, as explained earlier. I vomited some water as well as other substances in my stomach (bile).
3. As I explained in my response last night, acid levels were extremely high during that event. In fact, the dr. was surprised I didn't have a heart attack because of high acid levels.
4. Again, I addressed that last night.
5. I'm not saying I lost 50 lbs. of water weight in that time. I explained this last night and again today. Some of that weight was water, some was fat. Others who don't understand this are claiming that it was all water weight. Those people are wrong.0
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