Medical Conditions Which Affect Weight: Separating Fact From Fiction
Replies
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midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Perhaps what you are trying to do is reduce the short cuts people make?
I'll take an example - I have a friend that became wheelchair bound four years ago (lateral paralysis) - this had led to her being obese. Obviously the chair didn't CAUSE the obesity but the conditions of difficulty in limiting consumption, depression, reduced mobility and the associated difficulty of increasing energy expenditure for someone that has difficulty moving resulted in consuming more calories than those expended.
What 'fiction' do you think needs to be addressed?
I think the fiction is dependent on the condition, Ev. There was a recent thread where someone brought up his own DKA, and he grossly misstated the mechanism of it and implied a medically impossible outcome of it. That's one type of fiction.
DKA story....
In all likelihood the amount of weight lost has grown over time. The brain has a tendency to exaggerate crisis situations. Or, both your parents and your doctor were criminally negligent - because the weight loss indicator for hospitalisation is 5%. A known diabetic losing that in a week should be immediately hospitalised, along with the other signs you showed. The expected loss due to dehydration is somewhere in the order of 7-14lbs. Not 50lbs.
But it doesn't matter. Whether it was 10lbs or 30lbs or 50lbs, I don't see what this has to do with dieting?
Induced DKA is classified as an eating disorder.
Remember that as we look at our own medical stories - our mind does tricky things:
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Another type of fiction is that certain drugs cause weight gain. Well... yes and no. They don't directly just magically produce weight gain. They either lower metabolic rate or increase appetite, but that would only account for a certain margin of gain. Gains beyond that point come down to consumption.
Fiction is a loaded word, but it scans nicely with fact, so I went with it. I'd like this thread to explore the real causes of weight gain or loss with medical conditions as you did with explaining what happened to your friend there.
I find when we truly break these things down, it leads to understanding the component issues so that they can be addressed.
BOOM!
It's disturbing to so often see people say "blah blah" caused my weight gain. NO, eating too much causes weight gain. You may have different caloric needs now, for whatever reason, but it still comes down to CICO.
People attribute their weight gain to many things, don't they? I see threads here all the time where new jobs or break ups "caused" weight gain.
I don wonder if we truly know the effect of some medicines, however. So I'll reserve comment on those.
I do believe that with some conditions caloric needs may not remain constant, thus making it even harder to find the sweet spot for losing.
Yes. People blame all sorts of things on weight gain. On the opposite side of the coin, (I'll use myself as an example), when going through my second divorce with my husband (two young kids), I had dropped 40 pounds in 3 months. I was to a very, unhealthy weight for my size and it was a very scary time, when I could actually see this. The point is that "divorce" didn't make me lose weight. NOT eating did. Again, it comes down to CICO.
Calorie needs are never constant, they are affected by such a variety of factors that CICO isn't as simple as many seem to present here.
It's like saying it is all due to breathing and oxidation reactions! (Which is true.) But it doesn't explain how that is regulated.
What part of the CICO equation describes HOW your divorce affected HOW MUCH you ate?
Imagine if we could reduce all autopsy to "well the heart stopped, and then the brain signal stopped too". How is important. Oh, but it all comes down to heart and brain function!!
CICO is only part of the process and a complex part at that.
PS - glad you recovered.
I think this is something I, and others, may neglect to factor in adequately whenever we address the latest repeat of derp in an effort to stop it in its tracks
Bears thinking on0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).0 -
When i first started losing weight i had about 30 pounds to lose. It took me over 8-9 months to lose 20 pounds and i was CONSISTENTLY eating 1,200 calories a day with numerous lifting sessions a week and walked about 10k steps a day and biked roughly 3-4k a day.
At that point i had made GREAT strides in my physique and was looking so good i didn't feel the need to lose the other 10 pounds.
Went into my doctor's office though because i kept having a feeling like something was stuck in my throat and my nails started to become brittle and my hair super dry. I started having bad patches of eczema on my arms. I went in to have a general blood test to see if i had any deficiencies and if i needed to take any supplements.
Turns out i was deficient in: Vitamin D, Vitamin B12, Iron, Folate, Calcium, and have hypothyroidism. They believed that my thyroid levels being so low and unregulated may have caused issue with absorption of vitamins and minerals which i WAS getting in my diet.
Once i cut out soy and started on a low dose of tyrosint I dropped 15 pounds in like 3 weeks. =/ I got re-tested and i fixed all of my nutritional deficiencies and everything slowly started fixing itself.
In any case, my point is... I didn't have THAT much to lose and i lost my weight BEFORE i even found out i had a problem. I was still able to lose weight with a calorie deficit and exercise it just took longer and consistency. Had i been taking thyroid meds the entire time i may have lost faster, however, I STILL LOST WEIGHT!
When i see people saying things about how their thyroid condition caused them to gain 50, 100, 150+ pounds... i'm sorry. that's complete BS and an excuse.
Don't get me started on people like Whitney Thore who blame her 600 pound body weight and inability to lose on PCOS.
edit: in addition to low thyroid i also had elevated levels of prolactin. I was also taking birth control. My hormones were all kinds of effed up, so i don't make excuses.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
CICO = useful to weight loss
DKA = not so much
(I know a guy that lost his legs and lost 40lbs that way! Neato, relevant to weight loss? I don't think so.)0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Another type of fiction is that certain drugs cause weight gain. Well... yes and no. They don't directly just magically produce weight gain. They either lower metabolic rate or increase appetite, but that would only account for a certain margin of gain. Gains beyond that point come down to consumption.
Fiction is a loaded word, but it scans nicely with fact, so I went with it. I'd like this thread to explore the real causes of weight gain or loss with medical conditions as you did with explaining what happened to your friend there.
I find when we truly break these things down, it leads to understanding the component issues so that they can be addressed.
BOOM!
It's disturbing to so often see people say "blah blah" caused my weight gain. NO, eating too much causes weight gain. You may have different caloric needs now, for whatever reason, but it still comes down to CICO.
People attribute their weight gain to many things, don't they? I see threads here all the time where new jobs or break ups "caused" weight gain.
I don wonder if we truly know the effect of some medicines, however. So I'll reserve comment on those.
I do believe that with some conditions caloric needs may not remain constant, thus making it even harder to find the sweet spot for losing.
Yes. People blame all sorts of things on weight gain. On the opposite side of the coin, (I'll use myself as an example), when going through my second divorce with my husband (two young kids), I had dropped 40 pounds in 3 months. I was to a very, unhealthy weight for my size and it was a very scary time, when I could actually see this. The point is that "divorce" didn't make me lose weight. NOT eating did. Again, it comes down to CICO.
Calorie needs are never constant, they are affected by such a variety of factors that CICO isn't as simple as many seem to present here.
It's like saying it is all due to breathing and oxidation reactions! (Which is true.) But it doesn't explain how that is regulated.
What part of the CICO equation describes HOW your divorce affected HOW MUCH you ate?
Imagine if we could reduce all autopsy to "well the heart stopped, and then the brain signal stopped too". How is important. Oh, but it all comes down to heart and brain function!!
CICO is only part of the process and a complex part at that.
PS - glad you recovered.
I think this is something I, and others, may neglect to factor in adequately whenever we address the latest repeat of derp in an effort to stop it in its tracks
Bears thinking on
+1
When trying to simplify a message to someone who clearly doesn't have even a basic understanding of calorie management, we often don't convey the nuances behind the equation.0 -
Carol, thank you! Excellent conversation starter!
As for me, I'm blessed in that I don't have any medical conditions (that I know of), so I would like to give a different perspective here.
I was overweight all of my life, and obese for a short while in my mid-twenties, and I was convinced that I could not lose weight. I have a long history of disordered eating. I figured I was just destined to be a big person. While I did maintain at as overweight for quite a few years, I was convinced that my body at a set point and I could never get below a certain weight. This "proved" to be true when I reached that certain weight in my early 40's after working with a trainer who taught me about portion control, logging food (writing it down), eating at a calorie deficit, and how to properly weight lift and work out. I had him for about six or seven sessions before I knew I had it all down.
I did well. I maintained that weight for about a year, then the weight started creeping back on because I wasn't using the tools I had learned. I quit paying attention to what I was doing. All this time, I was convinced that my body was playing tricks on me and started restricting food choices more and more until I had cut out all the "fattening" foods, but I still was not losing weight. On and off, I wrote down what I ate and how much (eyeballing wise), but that habit became more off than on.
Even though I was caught in this craziness, the lessons my trainer taught me were still in the back of my mind, and I figured I might as well start logging food again, but I dreaded writing it down. Well, of course, with the internet, there had to be some kind of a logging "template" or something that I could use to log food on my computer.
Bingo--I found MFP, and I started logging food and participating in the forums.
The first thing I discovered is that I was eating way too many calories to maintain my weight.
The second thing I learned is that the only sane idea in my mind regarding weight management was that I was eating too much to lose weight, therefore I had to start eating less. Everything else was woo based on the insanity of believing I was somehow a special snowflake.
The third thing I learned was that weighing food, logging everything I eat, wearing a heart rate monitor for exercise, eating back those exercise calories, were great tools for success for me. The reason is because most of my personal success is based on structure.
Finally, I learned that the woo is just another way for me to not take responsibility for my weight management, therefore I learned to reject it without a second thought. Many people here helped me to learn how to throw away the woo and to understand that anything outside of CICO for weight loss for me is preference (since I don't have a medical condition that affects my weight in any way).
So, I think the bottom line is that separating fact from fiction is very important to be successful in weight loss. I know if my life when I've taken certain medications, especially birth control, that the labels contained warnings of weight gain, but they never said increased appetite. Now, because I've separated fact (science) from fiction (woo), I know what those labels mean when weight gain is listed as a side effect.
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
CICO = useful to weight loss
DKA = not so much
My point entirely.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
CICO = useful to weight loss
DKA = not so much
A symptom of DKA is rapid weight loss, so I would hardly believe it isn't useful. A better way to say it is that it isn't safe.
Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
CICO = useful to weight loss
DKA = not so much
(I know a guy that lost his legs and lost 40lbs that way! Neato, relevant to weight loss? I don't think so.)
My cat passed two years ago from DKA. =/0 -
I'm fascinated with cortisol levels right now. I've had a significant amount of trauma in my life the last 2 months. I'm also type 1 diabetic. I went to my endocrinologist this week to help with my suddenly out of control high blood sugars. I also asked her about the 8 pounds I gained almost overnight despite diligently counting calories, weighing food, exercising, etc. The weight gain, high blood sugars are all stress/cortisol induced. She gave a very scientific explanation of how excess cortisol causes weight gain even when you do not change your eating habits. So I'm still weighing my food and eating at a deficit but I'm also actively trying to reduce cortisol levels.PeachyCarol wrote: »None cause (effect) weight, though some can influence (affect) it, if people don't change how they eat.
That seems to have been adequately addressed in this thread...
as well as the myriad of others saying exactly the same thing.
You feel that they've been adequately addressed? I see so many thyroid and PCOS threads with misinformation in them every day on this forum. Both conditions lead to marginal weight issues, but you wouldn't think that from some of what you see here.
Neither of them necessarily call for a special diet, except by choice either.
I know I've seen studies to back up what I'm saying. I'll try to find them in a bit and post them.
This discussion about cortisol is very interesting to me, as I want to understand it better. 0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
I'm pretty sure most people understand there are medical conditions that cause massive amounts of water retention, and massive amounts of water loss. Those things are exceptions to the day in, day out issues people deal with in regards to management of chronic disease. My type 1 diabetic uncle had issues with water retention to the point where he would get water in his lungs. This did contribute to his weight. The reason he was obese was still primarily CICO.
When I gave birth to my 11lb 4oz son I lost 25 lbs due to water retention from being pregnant with a baby, and having HBP. That has nothing to do with the fact that I was also obese, and had to lose weight.0 -
Interesting subject. I'm 48 and perimenopausal (undiagnosed and untreated, of course) and I have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis with Undifferentiated Connective Tissue Disorder (for 12 years.) Fatigue, pain, depression are just a few of my battles.
I had an interaction with one of my doctors years ago where I told him that some such medication "made me" gain weight. I wish I had the doctor mentioned upthread that explained clearly what was going on. My doctor only told me, in a smug sort of way, in no uncertain terms, did the medications that he prescribed "make" me gain weight. Of course, this approach only fueled my continued denial.
So, eventually it finally just clicked for me. I got sick and tired enough. At this point I wonder if it would have made a difference if that doctor had tried to explain it to me. We all have our own motivators and style of learning. We get there when we're motivated enough and not before, even with all this knowledge at our fingertips.
CICO is simple in principle, not in execution. The calculations provided on MFP are a guidepost for the average person. We have to do a certain amount of fiddling with intake to find our personalized numbers.
Best to everyone.
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janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Another type of fiction is that certain drugs cause weight gain. Well... yes and no. They don't directly just magically produce weight gain. They either lower metabolic rate or increase appetite, but that would only account for a certain margin of gain. Gains beyond that point come down to consumption.
Fiction is a loaded word, but it scans nicely with fact, so I went with it. I'd like this thread to explore the real causes of weight gain or loss with medical conditions as you did with explaining what happened to your friend there.
I find when we truly break these things down, it leads to understanding the component issues so that they can be addressed.
BOOM!
It's disturbing to so often see people say "blah blah" caused my weight gain. NO, eating too much causes weight gain. You may have different caloric needs now, for whatever reason, but it still comes down to CICO.
People attribute their weight gain to many things, don't they? I see threads here all the time where new jobs or break ups "caused" weight gain.
I don wonder if we truly know the effect of some medicines, however. So I'll reserve comment on those.
I do believe that with some conditions caloric needs may not remain constant, thus making it even harder to find the sweet spot for losing.
Yes. People blame all sorts of things on weight gain. On the opposite side of the coin, (I'll use myself as an example), when going through my second divorce with my husband (two young kids), I had dropped 40 pounds in 3 months. I was to a very, unhealthy weight for my size and it was a very scary time, when I could actually see this. The point is that "divorce" didn't make me lose weight. NOT eating did. Again, it comes down to CICO.
Calorie needs are never constant, they are affected by such a variety of factors that CICO isn't as simple as many seem to present here.
It's like saying it is all due to breathing and oxidation reactions! (Which is true.) But it doesn't explain how that is regulated.
What part of the CICO equation describes HOW your divorce affected HOW MUCH you ate?
Imagine if we could reduce all autopsy to "well the heart stopped, and then the brain signal stopped too". How is important. Oh, but it all comes down to heart and brain function!!
CICO is only part of the process and a complex part at that.
PS - glad you recovered.
I think this is something I, and others, may neglect to factor in adequately whenever we address the latest repeat of derp in an effort to stop it in its tracks
Bears thinking on
+1
When trying to simplify a message to someone who clearly doesn't have even a basic understanding of calorie management, we often don't convey the nuances behind the equation.
This is my point as well.0 -
Things that are legit IMO: Issues that disrupt hormone balance, issues that reduce voluntary physical activity, psychological issues that may lead to things like depression, self loathing.
I've dealt with clients that have had 1 or more of the issues above and while it's not impossible to help with health improvement and weight loss/maintenance, it's quite challenging sometimes.
What I believe needs to be addressed is the severity of the issue. One can have hypothyroidism, be treated with the correct drug, yet is convinced that it's the main reason they can't lose weight at all. Yet I've had many in the same situation (my DW included) and they've lost weight just fine.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I eagerly await your self-amputation threads, then. That's some rapid weight loss, too.midwesterner85 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
CICO = useful to weight loss
DKA = not so much
A symptom of DKA is rapid weight loss, so I would hardly believe it isn't useful. A better way to say it is that it isn't safe.
Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
No, it doesn't. But there aren't enough words in the language to get you to understand the context, that CICO isn't about water weight, isn't about short snapshots of time, and isn't about creating or destroying energy, so good luck with your understanding of how CICO does or doesn't apply to your scenario.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
CICO = useful to weight loss
DKA = not so much
A symptom of DKA is rapid weight loss, so I would hardly believe it isn't useful. A better way to say it is that it isn't safe.
Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
This is like saying CICO is wrong because I cut off my legs and lost weight.
DKA isn't a weight loss strategy. CICO, as used on this site, is relevant to long-term, well-structured weight loss.
If I go and sweat off 10lbs at the sauna did I break CICO?
If I finesse my macros and meal timing for improved recomp, did I break CICO?
The answer is no in both cases - and on the other hand, it isn't a thermodynamic law, it's a simple time dependent energy balance equation. Now, can we get back to thread?0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
I'm pretty sure most people understand there are medical conditions that cause massive amounts of water retention, and massive amounts of water loss. Those things are exceptions to the day in, day out issues people deal with in regards to management of chronic disease. My type 1 diabetic uncle had issues with water retention to the point where he would get water in his lungs. This did contribute to his weight. The reason he was obese was still primarily CICO.
When I gave birth to my 11lb 4oz son I lost 25 lbs due to water retention from being pregnant baby, and having HBP. That has nothing to do with the fact that I was also obese, and had to lose weight.
It isn't just water, there is fat loss with DKA. As I explained earlier, your body breaks down fat to convert it into glucose and then removes that glucose through urine. Again... this is not healthy, but it is what happens to cause fat loss without exercise.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
DKA, which results in a loss of fluid is not relevant to a site where people are looking for meaningful, lasting fat loss.
You continually bringing up an emergency medical condition to "prove" CICO is wrong is spurious. It just proves that there are medical conditions that can impact the fluid levels in the body and that the human body carries a lot of fluid in it.
It is not meaningful to constantly interject "CICO doesn't always apply" into discussions based on your experience with fluid loss and dehydration, just as it's not meaningful for me to bring up my experience with celiac disease.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
DKA, which results in a loss of fluid is not relevant to a site where people are looking for meaningful, lasting fat loss.
You continually bringing up an emergency medical condition to "prove" CICO is wrong is spurious. It just proves that there are medical conditions that can impact the fluid levels in the body and that the human body carries a lot of fluid in it.
It is not meaningful to constantly interject "CICO doesn't always apply" into discussions based on your experience with fluid loss and dehydration, just as it's not meaningful for me to bring up my experience with celiac disease.
Again, it isn't just fluid. There is fat loss as well.0 -
I'm fascinated with cortisol levels right now. I've had a significant amount of trauma in my life the last 2 months. I'm also type 1 diabetic. I went to my endocrinologist this week to help with my suddenly out of control high blood sugars. I also asked her about the 8 pounds I gained almost overnight despite diligently counting calories, weighing food, exercising, etc. The weight gain, high blood sugars are all stress/cortisol induced. She gave a very scientific explanation of how excess cortisol causes weight gain even when you do not change your eating habits. So I'm still weighing my food and eating at a deficit but I'm also actively trying to reduce cortisol levels.PeachyCarol wrote: »None cause (effect) weight, though some can influence (affect) it, if people don't change how they eat.
That seems to have been adequately addressed in this thread...
as well as the myriad of others saying exactly the same thing.
You feel that they've been adequately addressed? I see so many thyroid and PCOS threads with misinformation in them every day on this forum. Both conditions lead to marginal weight issues, but you wouldn't think that from some of what you see here.
Neither of them necessarily call for a special diet, except by choice either.
I know I've seen studies to back up what I'm saying. I'll try to find them in a bit and post them.
This discussion about cortisol is very interesting to me, as I want to understand it better.
I don't know a lot about it, to be honest. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge weighs in. Perhaps @usmcmp?0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Another type of fiction is that certain drugs cause weight gain. Well... yes and no. They don't directly just magically produce weight gain. They either lower metabolic rate or increase appetite, but that would only account for a certain margin of gain. Gains beyond that point come down to consumption.
Fiction is a loaded word, but it scans nicely with fact, so I went with it. I'd like this thread to explore the real causes of weight gain or loss with medical conditions as you did with explaining what happened to your friend there.
I find when we truly break these things down, it leads to understanding the component issues so that they can be addressed.
BOOM!
It's disturbing to so often see people say "blah blah" caused my weight gain. NO, eating too much causes weight gain. You may have different caloric needs now, for whatever reason, but it still comes down to CICO.
People attribute their weight gain to many things, don't they? I see threads here all the time where new jobs or break ups "caused" weight gain.
I don wonder if we truly know the effect of some medicines, however. So I'll reserve comment on those.
I do believe that with some conditions caloric needs may not remain constant, thus making it even harder to find the sweet spot for losing.
Yes. People blame all sorts of things on weight gain. On the opposite side of the coin, (I'll use myself as an example), when going through my second divorce with my husband (two young kids), I had dropped 40 pounds in 3 months. I was to a very, unhealthy weight for my size and it was a very scary time, when I could actually see this. The point is that "divorce" didn't make me lose weight. NOT eating did. Again, it comes down to CICO.
Calorie needs are never constant, they are affected by such a variety of factors that CICO isn't as simple as many seem to present here.
It's like saying it is all due to breathing and oxidation reactions! (Which is true.) But it doesn't explain how that is regulated.
What part of the CICO equation describes HOW your divorce affected HOW MUCH you ate?
Imagine if we could reduce all autopsy to "well the heart stopped, and then the brain signal stopped too". How is important. Oh, but it all comes down to heart and brain function!!
CICO is only part of the process and a complex part at that.
PS - glad you recovered.
I think this is something I, and others, may neglect to factor in adequately whenever we address the latest repeat of derp in an effort to stop it in its tracks
Bears thinking on
+1
When trying to simplify a message to someone who clearly doesn't have even a basic understanding of calorie management, we often don't convey the nuances behind the equation.
This is my point as well.
It seems to me that your point is that CICO doesn't actually apply in some cases, whereas the nuances are actually about how to determine the CI and CO sides of the equation.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
I'm pretty sure most people understand there are medical conditions that cause massive amounts of water retention, and massive amounts of water loss. Those things are exceptions to the day in, day out issues people deal with in regards to management of chronic disease. My type 1 diabetic uncle had issues with water retention to the point where he would get water in his lungs. This did contribute to his weight. The reason he was obese was still primarily CICO.
When I gave birth to my 11lb 4oz son I lost 25 lbs due to water retention from being pregnant baby, and having HBP. That has nothing to do with the fact that I was also obese, and had to lose weight.
It isn't just water, there is fat loss with DKA. As I explained earlier, your body breaks down fat to convert it into glucose and then removes that glucose through urine. Again... this is not healthy, but it is what happens to cause fat loss without exercise.
Yes I understand this. My hypertension caused at least 10 extra pounds of water weight. Adjust for the 11lb 4oz baby, the 2lb 8oz placenta, and normal amniotic fluid. The 220 body I ended up with after he was born, and I dumped all of that garbage, was not because of the hypertension. It was because I ate more than I burned. That's the point the OP is trying to make.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »I'm fascinated with cortisol levels right now. I've had a significant amount of trauma in my life the last 2 months. I'm also type 1 diabetic. I went to my endocrinologist this week to help with my suddenly out of control high blood sugars. I also asked her about the 8 pounds I gained almost overnight despite diligently counting calories, weighing food, exercising, etc. The weight gain, high blood sugars are all stress/cortisol induced. She gave a very scientific explanation of how excess cortisol causes weight gain even when you do not change your eating habits. So I'm still weighing my food and eating at a deficit but I'm also actively trying to reduce cortisol levels.PeachyCarol wrote: »None cause (effect) weight, though some can influence (affect) it, if people don't change how they eat.
That seems to have been adequately addressed in this thread...
as well as the myriad of others saying exactly the same thing.
You feel that they've been adequately addressed? I see so many thyroid and PCOS threads with misinformation in them every day on this forum. Both conditions lead to marginal weight issues, but you wouldn't think that from some of what you see here.
Neither of them necessarily call for a special diet, except by choice either.
I know I've seen studies to back up what I'm saying. I'll try to find them in a bit and post them.
This discussion about cortisol is very interesting to me, as I want to understand it better.
I don't know a lot about it, to be honest. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge weighs in. Perhaps @usmcmp?
I'm quite interested. This time of year, my job is incredibly stressful, but I often have my best losses around now.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
I'm pretty sure most people understand there are medical conditions that cause massive amounts of water retention, and massive amounts of water loss. Those things are exceptions to the day in, day out issues people deal with in regards to management of chronic disease. My type 1 diabetic uncle had issues with water retention to the point where he would get water in his lungs. This did contribute to his weight. The reason he was obese was still primarily CICO.
When I gave birth to my 11lb 4oz son I lost 25 lbs due to water retention from being pregnant baby, and having HBP. That has nothing to do with the fact that I was also obese, and had to lose weight.
It isn't just water, there is fat loss with DKA. As I explained earlier, your body breaks down fat to convert it into glucose and then removes that glucose through urine. Again... this is not healthy, but it is what happens to cause fat loss without exercise.
It's clear that this episode of hypovolemic shock was very impactful on your life. You lost a lot of weight.
Can you point to an instance when bringing this up has made a meaningful change in someone's health journey? It's an unlikely scenario for most people and the fact of the matter is, MFP is built around a caloric deficit and that should be the focus because barring a tiny percentage of medical conditions that may change the way someone implements CICO, it still works.
How is it impacting your journey NOW? What are you doing differently NOW because of it? Do you count calories? Are you in a deficit? Because if you're not tracking with MFP and believe in deficit, why are you here? It's an honest question.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
The app lets you track other things related to fitness, but the concept behind "My Fitness Pal," as an app, is that calories DO matter when it comes to meeting weight loss goals. You're trying to act like DKA is as applicable to the majority of users as discussions of CICO. That just isn't the case.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Another type of fiction is that certain drugs cause weight gain. Well... yes and no. They don't directly just magically produce weight gain. They either lower metabolic rate or increase appetite, but that would only account for a certain margin of gain. Gains beyond that point come down to consumption.
Fiction is a loaded word, but it scans nicely with fact, so I went with it. I'd like this thread to explore the real causes of weight gain or loss with medical conditions as you did with explaining what happened to your friend there.
I find when we truly break these things down, it leads to understanding the component issues so that they can be addressed.
BOOM!
It's disturbing to so often see people say "blah blah" caused my weight gain. NO, eating too much causes weight gain. You may have different caloric needs now, for whatever reason, but it still comes down to CICO.
People attribute their weight gain to many things, don't they? I see threads here all the time where new jobs or break ups "caused" weight gain.
I don wonder if we truly know the effect of some medicines, however. So I'll reserve comment on those.
I do believe that with some conditions caloric needs may not remain constant, thus making it even harder to find the sweet spot for losing.
Yes. People blame all sorts of things on weight gain. On the opposite side of the coin, (I'll use myself as an example), when going through my second divorce with my husband (two young kids), I had dropped 40 pounds in 3 months. I was to a very, unhealthy weight for my size and it was a very scary time, when I could actually see this. The point is that "divorce" didn't make me lose weight. NOT eating did. Again, it comes down to CICO.
Calorie needs are never constant, they are affected by such a variety of factors that CICO isn't as simple as many seem to present here.
It's like saying it is all due to breathing and oxidation reactions! (Which is true.) But it doesn't explain how that is regulated.
What part of the CICO equation describes HOW your divorce affected HOW MUCH you ate?
Imagine if we could reduce all autopsy to "well the heart stopped, and then the brain signal stopped too". How is important. Oh, but it all comes down to heart and brain function!!
CICO is only part of the process and a complex part at that.
PS - glad you recovered.
I think this is something I, and others, may neglect to factor in adequately whenever we address the latest repeat of derp in an effort to stop it in its tracks
Bears thinking on
+1
When trying to simplify a message to someone who clearly doesn't have even a basic understanding of calorie management, we often don't convey the nuances behind the equation.
This is my point as well.
It seems to me that your point is that CICO doesn't actually apply in some cases, whereas the nuances are actually about how to determine the CI and CO sides of the equation.
CICO is not clearly defined in every thread where it is used. Explaining the nuances behind the equation, as you are using it, would go a long way. Most users seem to imply (but rarely explicitly state) that the CO part of CICO is RMR + exercise. In that case, my example is of weight loss not explained by CICO. If the definition of CO is expanded to include excretion of energy through pee, poop, and vomiting; then it is included in CICO. Most users don't seem to recognize that as part of CICO, though, while exclaiming there is nothing possible outside of that almighty equation.
It all comes down to absolutes. Many users on MFP use absolute responses when it comes to things like CICO, which dismisses a lot of known circumstances. Even if 80%-90% of users can use the simple CICO, it still isn't fair to the other users who are asking for help and "shouted down" because their experiences don't match CICO and MFP masses just want to call them liars.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
DKA, which results in a loss of fluid is not relevant to a site where people are looking for meaningful, lasting fat loss.
You continually bringing up an emergency medical condition to "prove" CICO is wrong is spurious. It just proves that there are medical conditions that can impact the fluid levels in the body and that the human body carries a lot of fluid in it.
It is not meaningful to constantly interject "CICO doesn't always apply" into discussions based on your experience with fluid loss and dehydration, just as it's not meaningful for me to bring up my experience with celiac disease.
Again, it isn't just fluid. There is fat loss as well.
There is - quite a bit too from the lipids being dumped into the blood, gluconeogenesis, ketone body metabolism, etc...
& still not relevant because a) it is not a chronic condition that impacts weight loss, b) nor a method that should be used, c) nor advice that one should be giving on "how to lose weight".
Now, if you want to talk about how diabetes affects weight loss and how insulin abuse is a harmful strategy for weight loss... well, that's a whole 'nother ball of yarn. And possibly it's own thread.0
This discussion has been closed.
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