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Fat Acceptance Movement
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »I "accept" fat about as much as I "accept" cancer. Its not something to rub in someones face who has it, but it is something to fight against...not embrace.
I couldn't have put that better myself.1 -
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »I only care because being at an unhealthy weight (high or low) adds to the rising health insurance / medical costs that everyone -including people trying to be reasonably fit- usually pays for.
Starting a "movement" (ironic word choice...) to make it even more acceptable to be at an unhealthy weight is just pushing "Politically Correct" to the extreme.
Japan taxes and educates people who are at unhealthy weight levels.
Every year everyone has blood work, measurements and the like checked and it is reported to the government.
Those taxes help balance the drain on the public health insurance system in Japan.
Guess what? Japan has around a 5% obesity rate, and that includes sumo wrestlers.
People in Japan are taught how to make healthy lifestyle choices and workplaces often help by making sure cafeteria menus are healthy or having mandatory exercise classes at the beginning of work shifts.
This applies to foreigners (がいじん）living in Japan as well, I think.
They should do something like that here in the States, in my opinion.
Putting the responsibility on the state to manage people's own health is wrong in my opinion. It is a case where I don't think the ends justify the means (I have a libertarian streak in me).
That said I do think someone in a society is perfectly within their rights to voice concern about obesity or someone being significantly overweight on the basis that it puts an undue strain on the health system that we all support.
I certainly think it's fine to say that societal obesity is a problem and to say that generally being obese is unhealthy. I don't even think that's controversial and I'd disagree with someone who tried to claim that was "shaming."
When it comes to an individual, though, I think health professionals should address weight, sure, but I can't imagine (as someone not their doctor, etc.) going up to someone and saying that their weight is a problem, let alone that it's hurting society by putting a strain on the health care system. (I don't think you were saying this, but am a little puzzled by what you meant by voicing concern about someone being significantly overweight.) Now, is anyone fat going to get that discussions about societal obesity adding to health care costs (as do a variety of other things)? Sure. I know I thought about that when fat even, although I had no health care problems during that period. Is it bad for someone to be aware than fatness is a health risk? No, it's good and important (and I am sure that people do know that unless they are being willfully ignorant in an invincible kind of way). But would I ever go up to someone and say "you should lose weight"? No--but of course if someone raised the topic with me I'd be supportive of the weight loss efforts and encourage it and all that and if someone I knew well enough was doing the "I can't lose weight" thing I might try to help them get over that, mostly by focusing on my own experiences.To me there is a huge difference between calling a specific individual fat in order to shame them or make them feel like less of a person and saying that as a society we should discourage unhealthy weight and not accept it as being the "new normal" somehow.
Yes, I agree with this entirely.
I guess I don't see anyone doing the latter (well, other than a fringe very few take seriously), so I find it puzzling when people (not you) seem to think there's this big battle going on against proponents of that view.
Now, back to HAES, I dislike strongly the claim that being morbidly obese is not a health problem and the related claim that one cannot do anything about one's weight, that losing weight isn't worth the effort, is more harmful than not. But I also think that obesity and weight in general (often for people not obese or even overweight) is wrapped up with all kinds of shame and psychological things, and that some people find it easier to keep a healthy weight after getting over these kinds of issues which may mean not focusing on dieting for a period, and learning to not hate themselves for not being thin or having the body they want, even for some learning not to hate themselves for being fat. Even without being caught up in the diet industry (I never was), accepting myself as is was really helpful to changing in a healthier way, to leading a healthy lifestyle (and the most unhealthy lifestyle I personally ever lived was when I was thin--thinner than I am now, and I'm not currently overweight).
Beyond that, I think there was an opportunity, one I would encourage, to say "okay, not in a place to focus on scale weight, fine, let's focus on health in other ways, like food choice and exercise and not using food for self-comfort." I happen to think that will always lead to weight loss anyway, but doing it for the expected weight loss or believing that you will lose weight and are "dieting" is not necessary. That's what I'd personally consider a focus on being as healthy as possible at any size (and it is definitely what I found helpful--F the scale, I'm going to be as fit and healthy as I can be and not let the number on the scale bother me or freak me out).
Yes, not everyone finds this useful. But some do, and I think encouraging these things even for people who are in a (false, IMO) state of mind that they are fat and helpless to do anything will ultimately help them become less helpless. (And this is why I agree with the criticism of HAES, as it seems to be promoting a message of helplessness about weight far too much.)3 -
caffeinatedcami wrote: »I was thinking about body image issues (my own and society's in general) and I learned about something called the Fat Acceptance Movement. The Healthy at Any Size Movement is related to this as well. I am curious what people's thoughts on this are.
Personally I am of two minds about it. I have never been clinically overweight but I definitely flirted with the normal-overweight bmi boundary at one point. I have had body image issues since I was a teenager and three of my immediate family members have suffered from anorexia. So I know the toll that negative body image can have on a person. Everyone should love themselves regardless of their size. And fat-shaming should not be tolerated. However, I agree with a lot of the points made in this blog post "6 Things I Don't Understand About the Fat Acceptance Movement". At a certain point does it really demonstrate self-love to give up on weight loss? What are your thoughts?
http://thoughtcatalog.com/carolyn-hall/2014/04/6-things-i-dont-understand-about-the-fat-acceptance-movement/
After 22 pages I wondered how it all started?
The comments to the linked article in the first post mirrors a lot of the the posts in these 22 pages?
There are many health issues that are lifestyle related. I can be an alcoholic and not drink for 24 hours then be walk a straight line. When my BMI was 35 two years ago I could go without eating for 24 hours but was still fat.
In my case it was only when I changed my Way Of Eating to lower my level of body inflammation for pain management did I stop being obese over time. No longer being obese makes me aware of obesity more than when I was obese.
Being mean to another human so as to make them feel bad is just wrong regardless the reason. I did come to accept that I was obese but being called "fat" never caused me to be motivated to become not "fat". It was at the age of 63 I realized I was facing a premature death and choose to change my WOE to decrease my odds of a premature death. I have set a positive example for other family members but I have not called them names or anything to get them to eat differently. Change can only happen from within. After I found a macro that worked for me then all I had to do was adjust the calories that I ate to lose and maintain my weight.
No I do not know why I accepted being fat was OK in my case for so many years!0 -
"Darkness can not drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate can not drive out hate, only love can do that"
~ PhD MLK Jr.
From a guy who dropped 180lbs, I think that somes things up pretty well.8 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.2 -
I certainly think it's fine to say that societal obesity is a problem and to say that generally being obese is unhealthy
That is what the "fat acceptance" movement stands in opposition to. That is the point of it. You are confusing the fat acceptance movement with people who are against fat-shaming.
I have no issues with being against fat-shaming, my issues are with the fat acceptance movement which is what this post was made with regards to.3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
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JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
I think you can't get personally accepting a person and accepting the organization confused.
The organization itself actually blasts people who try to lose weight. Apparently a plus sized model decided to lose weight and they attacked her on social media.
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JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.8 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
(1) I don't agree that that's the sum of what the fat acceptance movement is, no. I think some segments of it say that, and as I wrote, I disagree with that (and consider it quite fringe -- so rather like arguing against something else I don't think is really going to happen these days, like that we "accept" as a society that women should not work or some such). But I think other segments focus more on the kinds of things I've been talking about -- about getting past self-hatred or focusing on non scale based approaches to health (that I personally think lead to weight loss anyway).
(2) I was specifically asking about whether others HERE were making that argument (I don't think so), precisely because the poster seemed to be phrasing the comment as if it were not merely a response to the topic but an argument with other posters. I don't think other posters were saying anything different, so it seems to be a misunderstanding of what was said or a misrepresentation. But I realize that some don't read the other posters but only the topic and that I could be misreading myself, which is why I acknowledged that.2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I certainly think it's fine to say that societal obesity is a problem and to say that generally being obese is unhealthy
That is what the "fat acceptance" movement stands in opposition to. That is the point of it. You are confusing the fat acceptance movement with people who are against fat-shaming.
I have no issues with being against fat-shaming, my issues are with the fat acceptance movement which is what this post was made with regards to.
I am not confusing anything. I think the fat acceptance movement is not just one simple thing and, moreover, that arguing about what the fat acceptance movement is is kind of pointless in that there are a variety of different aspects and you can like some of it and dislike other bits (or even the most prominent current representatives). It's not a concrete organization with a set platform, after all. Makes more sense to me to discuss what our individual positions are, and I think the vast majority of people would agree with the position I staked out above. Anything else is fringe, IMO.
I find the suggestion that people here are arguing that it's somehow fat shaming to say that societal obesity is a problem is an inaccurate reading of the discussion. It's possible to see some good in the idea of "fat acceptance" (which is not a movement I'm in, for the record) without disagreeing with the health or societal concerns. That's basically what I've been trying to say.
Do some take more extreme positions? Of course--that's why I called out HAES, for example, and I think earlier in the thread I mentioned disagreeing with Paul Campos.1 -
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janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Is there actually a debate about that? Is there anyone who advocates making fun of an individual for being fat? That seems like a strawman to me. People saying being fat is a health problem are being mislabeled as "fat shaming". There is a huge difference between calling someone a "fatty" to hurt their feelings and stating the FACT that being overweight causes health problems and that we as a society should employ cultural pressure on those who are obese (or those who are underweight) to come more in line with a healthy body not only for their sake but for the sake of society as a whole. That is not "shaming".
Those who are against fat-shaming seem to be against the idea of someone just being flippant and rude to an individual. Okay...yeah thats inappropriate same as it would be inappropriate to be flippant and rude about any of their physical attributes. Does anyone actually believe otherwise? That just seems like a strawman to me.
If someone has cancer I don't call them cancer-face but I would support them fighting the cancer. If, for some reason, they decide cancer is good for them and they want me to accept their cancer as being part of who they are I'm not going to do that because that is ridiculous. At that point am I cancer-shaming? Is cancer somehow part of their identity and by speaking out against cancer I am being rude to them in some way?8 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Is there actually a debate about that? Is there anyone who advocates making fun of an individual for being fat? That seems like a strawman to me. People saying being fat is a health problem are being mislabeled as "fat shaming".
Seriously, in this discussion here, has anyone done that? People seem to want to claim that taking the position that fat is a health issue is controversial or being disagreed with by others in the discussion and I don't see that.
People also seem to be arguing that there is some ongoing threat that we will decide that being fat is great and not know that obesity is bad for health, and I have to wonder what society they live in, since I don't see that at all. There is much more awareness that fat is a health issue than I recall in the past, for example (for obvious reasons -- it's more prevalent).
The pearl clutching "if we don't say it's not acceptable [whatever that even means] people will want to get fat" is what I find bizarre. But of course medical professionals and the gov't should point to the health risks, as they are.3 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
If you search for Ashley Graham, she was attacked pretty harshly by the overweight community for losing weight. There are others as well.
Due respect, I see it as two different issues. There are those who simply want to be recognized as human beings in spite of their weight, and there are activists. Some of the activists, as with any group really, can be more than a bit un-nerving.1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I only care because being at an unhealthy weight (high or low) adds to the rising health insurance / medical costs that everyone -including people trying to be reasonably fit- usually pays for.
Starting a "movement" (ironic word choice...) to make it even more acceptable to be at an unhealthy weight is just pushing "Politically Correct" to the extreme.
Japan taxes and educates people who are at unhealthy weight levels.
Every year everyone has blood work, measurements and the like checked and it is reported to the government.
Those taxes help balance the drain on the public health insurance system in Japan.
Guess what? Japan has around a 5% obesity rate, and that includes sumo wrestlers.
People in Japan are taught how to make healthy lifestyle choices and workplaces often help by making sure cafeteria menus are healthy or having mandatory exercise classes at the beginning of work shifts.
This applies to foreigners (がいじん）living in Japan as well, I think.
I they should do something like that here in the States, in my opinion.
How exactly do they make "healthy" cafeteria menus?
Also, look at many European school meal- they are FAR healthier then the crap that is served in US schools. In high school (2004) we had a French exchange student stay for a year and she was appalled at the school lunches.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »I only care because being at an unhealthy weight (high or low) adds to the rising health insurance / medical costs that everyone -including people trying to be reasonably fit- usually pays for.
Starting a "movement" (ironic word choice...) to make it even more acceptable to be at an unhealthy weight is just pushing "Politically Correct" to the extreme.
Japan taxes and educates people who are at unhealthy weight levels.
Every year everyone has blood work, measurements and the like checked and it is reported to the government.
Those taxes help balance the drain on the public health insurance system in Japan.
Guess what? Japan has around a 5% obesity rate, and that includes sumo wrestlers.
People in Japan are taught how to make healthy lifestyle choices and workplaces often help by making sure cafeteria menus are healthy or having mandatory exercise classes at the beginning of work shifts.
This applies to foreigners (がいじん）living in Japan as well, I think.
I they should do something like that here in the States, in my opinion.
How exactly do they make "healthy" cafeteria menus?
Probably emphasize vegetables and fruits served fresh or with minimal added sugars/oils, lean protein sources. Limited or no drinks with added sugars and no "junk food" like chips, candy, cakes, cookies, etc.
Unfortunately most public schools are forced to use the 'lowest bid' system which equals lowest quality. One of our local school lunches included half a cup of Lima beans- just Lima beans. Eww. I would not eat that now, much less when I was in third grade!
In NY at least, the school also can't have more then 2% saved in reserves, so it's not like the school can try and save in order to improve the cafeteria program. NY senate of course, can have 15% (or maybe it's 10%) saved for their precious bonuses.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Most of the people I've seen cited who get into pushing things like fat studies into academia at best promote a "weight neutral" approach to everything.
I'm not aware of any of the thought leaders in the movement who are okay with dieting. The mantra that they use is that dieting leads to failure leads to weight regain (and then some) and is dangerous and not to be undertaken. Hence the "weight neutral" stance.2
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