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Fat Acceptance Movement
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thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Perhaps sometimes, but I often notice my own biases. Along the obesity wagon, I have a co-worker who is extremely overweight and unfit. When walking around our manufacturing plant and office, he will often stop to sit down and catch his breath. This is even though he walks slower than everyone else. I noticed he goes through 2 cups (44 oz. each) of soda on most days from the local convenience store (1 that he brings in at the start of the day, and a 2nd that he brings back from lunch). My bias tells me that this is probably regular, high-calorie soda (I don't know what it is, in fact) and that he doesn't care about his weight.
Even though it shouldn't really, this co-worker's behavior bothers me. I think the reason it bothers me is because I've worked incredibly hard to lose weight. I've noticed through MFP that almost everyone seems to find it easy to lose weight... and I mean most people just seem to lose weight by cutting CI or increasing CO. Things are not as simple for me and I have rarely seen the results that most everyone else would see under the same circumstances. It's annoying and frustrating. As far as I know, it hasn't affected our work interaction. I'm not going to say anything to him about it, of course. The difference is whether that bias actually turns into action. I don't think I can change whether his size bothers me or not. I can change whether I treat him differently as a result. The first step to that is just being aware of that underlying thought. The second step is considering whether or not I react to that thought.
Additionally, I could see some bias against me when I was overweight. I had a dentist who was hesitant to remove my wisdom teeth without a GP doing a fitness test first. I had to get on a treadmill and prove that I was fit enough to get dental surgery. What is worse is that this dentist wrote a very detailed explanation for the GP that clearly revealed that he thought I had no self-control. In his mind, I was a "slob" not worth his time. In hindsight, I should have just seen a different dentist. At that time, I was only about 50-55 lbs. too heavy (on BMI charts). I can't imagine what that dentist would have thought if I was even heavier.
There are other examples of situations where I could clearly see bias from others when I was much more overweight. It definitely exists, but I shouldn't be able to notice it. Because if I noticed it, that means I'm being treated differently. At that point, bias has manifested into a discriminatory action.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Perhaps sometimes, but I often notice my own biases. Along the obesity wagon, I have a co-worker who is extremely overweight and unfit. When walking around our manufacturing plant and office, he will often stop to sit down and catch his breath. This is even though he walks slower than everyone else. I noticed he goes through 2 cups (44 oz. each) of soda on most days from the local convenience store (1 that he brings in at the start of the day, and a 2nd that he brings back from lunch). My bias tells me that this is probably regular, high-calorie soda (I don't know what it is, in fact) and that he doesn't care about his weight.
Even though it shouldn't really, this co-worker's behavior bothers me. I think the reason it bothers me is because I've worked incredibly hard to lose weight. I've noticed through MFP that almost everyone seems to find it easy to lose weight... and I mean most people just seem to lose weight by cutting CI or increasing CO. Things are not as simple for me and I have rarely seen the results that most everyone else would see under the same circumstances. It's annoying and frustrating. As far as I know, it hasn't affected our work interaction. I'm not going to say anything to him about it, of course. The difference is whether that bias actually turns into action. I don't think I can change whether his size bothers me or not. I can change whether I treat him differently as a result. The first step to that is just being aware of that underlying thought. The second step is considering whether or not I react to that thought.
Additionally, I could see some bias against me when I was overweight. I had a dentist who was hesitant to remove my wisdom teeth without a GP doing a fitness test first. I had to get on a treadmill and prove that I was fit enough to get dental surgery. What is worse is that this dentist wrote a very detailed explanation for the GP that clearly revealed that he thought I had no self-control. In his mind, I was a "slob" not worth his time. In hindsight, I should have just seen a different dentist. At that time, I was only about 50-55 lbs. too heavy (on BMI charts). I can't imagine what that dentist would have thought if I was even heavier.
There are other examples of situations where I could clearly see bias from others when I was much more overweight. It definitely exists, but I shouldn't be able to notice it. Because if I noticed it, that means I'm being treated differently. At that point, bias has manifested into a discriminatory action.
This really resonates with me. I still can't control when I have an overly positive (or negative) first impression of someone, but I can take steps to control how I express that. Awareness is the first step because without that awareness, we may not even realize how our actions are being shaped by our thoughts about someone.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Perhaps sometimes, but I often notice my own biases. Along the obesity wagon, I have a co-worker who is extremely overweight and unfit. When walking around our manufacturing plant and office, he will often stop to sit down and catch his breath. This is even though he walks slower than everyone else. I noticed he goes through 2 cups (44 oz. each) of soda on most days from the local convenience store (1 that he brings in at the start of the day, and a 2nd that he brings back from lunch). My bias tells me that this is probably regular, high-calorie soda (I don't know what it is, in fact) and that he doesn't care about his weight.
Even though it shouldn't really, this co-worker's behavior bothers me. I think the reason it bothers me is because I've worked incredibly hard to lose weight. I've noticed through MFP that almost everyone seems to find it easy to lose weight... and I mean most people just seem to lose weight by cutting CI or increasing CO. Things are not as simple for me and I have rarely seen the results that most everyone else would see under the same circumstances. It's annoying and frustrating. As far as I know, it hasn't affected our work interaction. I'm not going to say anything to him about it, of course. The difference is whether that bias actually turns into action. I don't think I can change whether his size bothers me or not. I can change whether I treat him differently as a result. The first step to that is just being aware of that underlying thought. The second step is considering whether or not I react to that thought.
Additionally, I could see some bias against me when I was overweight. I had a dentist who was hesitant to remove my wisdom teeth without a GP doing a fitness test first. I had to get on a treadmill and prove that I was fit enough to get dental surgery. What is worse is that this dentist wrote a very detailed explanation for the GP that clearly revealed that he thought I had no self-control. In his mind, I was a "slob" not worth his time. In hindsight, I should have just seen a different dentist. At that time, I was only about 50-55 lbs. too heavy (on BMI charts). I can't imagine what that dentist would have thought if I was even heavier.
There are other examples of situations where I could clearly see bias from others when I was much more overweight. It definitely exists, but I shouldn't be able to notice it. Because if I noticed it, that means I'm being treated differently. At that point, bias has manifested into a discriminatory action.
The discriminatory action described is a defensive one and unfortunately necessary thanks to lack of tort reform. Being overweight causes all manner of adverse events when subjected to anesthesia. Your dentist isn't making this personal - they are simply mitigating risk of your health and covering themselves from a potential suit.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Yeah, this is really true. I realized this when I used to do interviews more often (at my first job they'd often have candidates go through a series of interviews with people of various levels and then to lunch with a couple of junior people to ask questions). People who would otherwise have excellent credentials but something on the resume that made them (on paper) not fit in/not be like the average employee would typically get dinged, and I could predict that it would happen. I'm not talking about anything you would normally think of as a reason people get discriminated against either. Made me realize that there were likely to be other ways that would affect hiring.
I don't think it's something that you can prevent, and I do think being aware of it (if you care, in some cases I think people would double down in arguing that it matters) is a way to better avoid it, but it was somewhat eye-opening in thinking about these things.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Perhaps sometimes, but I often notice my own biases. Along the obesity wagon, I have a co-worker who is extremely overweight and unfit. When walking around our manufacturing plant and office, he will often stop to sit down and catch his breath. This is even though he walks slower than everyone else. I noticed he goes through 2 cups (44 oz. each) of soda on most days from the local convenience store (1 that he brings in at the start of the day, and a 2nd that he brings back from lunch). My bias tells me that this is probably regular, high-calorie soda (I don't know what it is, in fact) and that he doesn't care about his weight.
Even though it shouldn't really, this co-worker's behavior bothers me. I think the reason it bothers me is because I've worked incredibly hard to lose weight. I've noticed through MFP that almost everyone seems to find it easy to lose weight... and I mean most people just seem to lose weight by cutting CI or increasing CO. Things are not as simple for me and I have rarely seen the results that most everyone else would see under the same circumstances. It's annoying and frustrating. As far as I know, it hasn't affected our work interaction. I'm not going to say anything to him about it, of course. The difference is whether that bias actually turns into action. I don't think I can change whether his size bothers me or not. I can change whether I treat him differently as a result. The first step to that is just being aware of that underlying thought. The second step is considering whether or not I react to that thought.
Additionally, I could see some bias against me when I was overweight. I had a dentist who was hesitant to remove my wisdom teeth without a GP doing a fitness test first. I had to get on a treadmill and prove that I was fit enough to get dental surgery. What is worse is that this dentist wrote a very detailed explanation for the GP that clearly revealed that he thought I had no self-control. In his mind, I was a "slob" not worth his time. In hindsight, I should have just seen a different dentist. At that time, I was only about 50-55 lbs. too heavy (on BMI charts). I can't imagine what that dentist would have thought if I was even heavier.
There are other examples of situations where I could clearly see bias from others when I was much more overweight. It definitely exists, but I shouldn't be able to notice it. Because if I noticed it, that means I'm being treated differently. At that point, bias has manifested into a discriminatory action.
The discriminatory action described is a defensive one and unfortunately necessary thanks to lack of tort reform. Being overweight causes all manner of adverse events when subjected to anesthesia. Your dentist isn't making this personal - they are simply mitigating risk of your health and covering themselves from a potential suit.
I might accept that argument, except you didn't read the note to my GP. It was way beyond CYA.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Most of the people I've seen cited who get into pushing things like fat studies into academia at best promote a "weight neutral" approach to everything.
I'm not aware of any of the thought leaders in the movement who are okay with dieting. The mantra that they use is that dieting leads to failure leads to weight regain (and then some) and is dangerous and not to be undertaken. Hence the "weight neutral" stance.
I don't know how the movement is defined and mostly prefer to ignore it, but there are a lot of anti diet people, who talk about dieting and pressure to fit a particular societal norm resulting, for some, in more weight gain and messed up views about food. I am thinking of people like Isabel Foxen Duke, Laura Fraser (wrote Losing It, which I enjoyed and really helped me get into a better frame of mind), and even some of the people who focus on fitness and weights like Jen Sinkler. Some of those (maybe Duke and Fraser, some others) I'd consider closer to the movement than others, although I'd say body acceptance and anti dieting vs. "fat acceptance." But the bigger point is that none of them are anti weight loss or would say that it can't be done -- Duke and Fraser have talked about normalizing their relationship with food and getting out of the dieting cycle and focusing on other things as being responsible for being able to lose weight. In the same camp I'd put the intuitive eating people, as their the idea is that focusing on dieting and messed up ideas of food are what makes putting on weight so common, and that getting past that, even to the point of overeating for a while to be able to learn to trust the body and not be in starve/binge cycles is important (and self-hatred plays into that).
That's not my approach so much -- I don't have a history with dieting much and am skeptical of intuitive eating in general as I don't think it squares with human evolution as well as people want to think, but oh well.
Bigger point is that I'd include in the discussion people who are anti diet, who focus on body positivity and self acceptance, so on, even if they don't think being fat is idea or the longterm goal. This is because I think they'd also say that stigmatizing fat isn't really the answer.
But of course I agree that some go too far, and the HAES notion that fat is healthy or can't and shouldn't be changed is dumb (if a reasonably common kind of extreme for a "movement"). There are similarly wings of feminism that irritate me (even though I consider myself a feminist), and ideas that I think we unhealthy or bad within the various movements surrounding sexual orientation.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be easier to call out the ideas that we think are bad (and I think most of us in this discussion largely agree on what's bad) simply because I get the sense that some here are interpreting those of us saying "there may be some good things in the acceptance idea" or "I don't get what you would mean in telling someone else that 'fat is not okay'" (going back to earlier in the thread for that one) to mean that we consider calling obesity a societal problem to be fat shaming or that doctors shouldn't tell patients that overweight is a health concern, and I don't think that's the case.
I do think -- and maybe the social environment I know is non representative, as I know it's certainly not politically representative of the country as a whole, heh -- that the idea that people don't know obesity is a health risk or that fatness is being seen as desirable, or even not undesirable is completely unlike the world I see and IMO not a serious concern. Bigger issue is that people still get fat, despite this, so yes, that's a problem that I'd like to find a way to help with it, because it is generally bad for individuals and society.
I think the two you cited aren't, as you said, quite out there enough to be fat acceptance. They look to be more body positive, intuitive eating, and anti-structured dieting. I don't necessarily disagree with any of those approaches and think they're probably the healthiest for quite a few people.
I certainly agree with the idea of feeling positive about yourself as an enabling force to forming healthy habits. They seem to support this.
The fat acceptance movement as I've seen it, however, veers off from that into at times celebrating what amounts to gluttony. That's not healthy behavior.
I think I've been equating body positivity or anti-dieting with "fat acceptance," which is probably a mistake, but to me even "fat acceptance" doesn't require that one think that being fat is a good thing or not bad for health or whatever. Some aspects of the "movement," sure. (Reagan Chastain or whoever.)
As a result, the ideas I find objectionable may be less fringe or more central within "the movement" itself today than I thought. (I admit I wasn't aware of fat acceptance as anything other than "shaming is bad" prior to MFP, although I was aware of the anti dieting/intuitive eating/body positivity/focus on health and fitness stuff I mentioned before.)
However, when we are talking about the influence on society in general, I am still comfortable in saying that I think worries (again, looking way back in the thread) about obesity being seen as desirable or not unhealthy or not something most people would prefer to change about themselves, if they believe it's possible, is not a true concern.
I'd be curious where the disagreement lines are drawn when it comes to posters in this thread.
What concerns me is that the movement as I understand it is making inroads. There are institutes of higher learning that have fat studies symposiums and course offerings.
http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/11/fat-studies-courses-fat-awareness-groups-spread-across-universities/
There is a push to introduce legislation in Manitoba (which for now likely won't get anywhere) that will basically grant the obese protection under human rights law. I think that's taking things too far.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-liberals-weight-human-rights-1.3864788
These developments worry me.1 -
CipherZero wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.
My issue is with #1. Did they choose?
People don't understand the power of habit, genetic makeup, medications and stress that combine to make weight loss or gain more complicated than a choice.
For years, I chose to lose weight and gained weight instead.
It was only after much prayer and solutions to the obstacles I faced was I able to lose weight.
So what I'm saying is that you think a lot less compassionately than you act, and I'm sure it comes across even if you are unaware of it.
0 -
thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.
My issue is with #1. Did they choose?
People don't understand the power of habit, genetic makeup, medications and stress that combine to make weight loss or gain more complicated than a choice.
For years, I chose to lose weight and gained weight instead.
It was only after much prayer and solutions to the obstacles I faced was I able to lose weight.
So what I'm saying is that you think a lot less compassionately than you act, and I'm sure it comes across even if you are unaware of it.
You are right, there are many factors combined in trying to lose weight. The fact that you were ineffectively engaged in trying to lose weight didn't take away from the fact that you were still trying.
And that makes you different from a good chunk of fat acceptance advocates.
What you fail to realize is that there are people actively choosing to give up on losing weight and are actively choosing to be overfat.
If I'm not mistaken, that is the group of people the other poster was referring to.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.
My issue is with #1. Did they choose?
People don't understand the power of habit, genetic makeup, medications and stress that combine to make weight loss or gain more complicated than a choice.
For years, I chose to lose weight and gained weight instead.
It was only after much prayer and solutions to the obstacles I faced was I able to lose weight.
So what I'm saying is that you think a lot less compassionately than you act, and I'm sure it comes across even if you are unaware of it.
You are right, there are many factors combined in trying to lose weight. The fact that you were ineffectively engaged in trying to lose weight didn't take away from the fact that you were still trying.
And that makes you different from a good chunk of fat acceptance advocates.
What you fail to realize is that there are people actively choosing to give up on losing weight and are actively choosing to be overfat.
If I'm not mistaken, that is the group of people the other poster was referring to.
Sometimes getting off the rollercoaster for a while to just love oneself is what is needed for some people's mental health. And better self love and peace leads to positive change.
As for me, I just refused to hate myself (God forgave me, so I'm not holding on to guilt), and I refused to stop trying. But you couldn't tell that from looking at me, so I'm sure people were busy judging, no matter that I was putting in more effort.
And advice from people like move less, eat more or calories in, calories out, do the hard work, or just do it, was the equivalent of a business person saying the key to business success is to make more sales than expenses. You see how trite it sounds to your ears when applied in other situations.
3 -
Being fat isn't the issue to me. It's the health issues that go along with being fat. Health first.2
-
thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.
My issue is with #1. Did they choose?
People don't understand the power of habit, genetic makeup, medications and stress that combine to make weight loss or gain more complicated than a choice.
For years, I chose to lose weight and gained weight instead.
It was only after much prayer and solutions to the obstacles I faced was I able to lose weight.
So what I'm saying is that you think a lot less compassionately than you act, and I'm sure it comes across even if you are unaware of it.
None of those things force people to take in more calories than they burn. If you gain weight, it's because you've chosen to consume more than you need.
Weight gain is a choice. Weight loss is a choice. Maintaining is a choice. Every food item that passes your lips is a choice to ingest those calories.
Medicine and medical conditions can make it more difficult, but what you eat is *always* still a choice.
4 -
^ I'm not going to judge people, you don't know what's going on in someone else's life.
We have Sweets and soda manufacturers advertising to kids, most people have been addicted to sugar and salt since they were kids
And it's not just about calories, the food industry is willing to sell cancer causing substances wrapped in sugar to kids in order to make an extra penny on the dollar.
Yeah I believe in personal accountability, but you hold yourself accountable, not people you know nothing about.
It's too easy for people to get on a high horse and start pointing fingers at everyone else who has problems they don't, while acting like they don't have any problems themselves that the people they point at don't either.3 -
xmichaelyx wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.
My issue is with #1. Did they choose?
People don't understand the power of habit, genetic makeup, medications and stress that combine to make weight loss or gain more complicated than a choice.
For years, I chose to lose weight and gained weight instead.
It was only after much prayer and solutions to the obstacles I faced was I able to lose weight.
So what I'm saying is that you think a lot less compassionately than you act, and I'm sure it comes across even if you are unaware of it.
None of those things force people to take in more calories than they burn. If you gain weight, it's because you've chosen to consume more than you need.
Weight gain is a choice. Weight loss is a choice. Maintaining is a choice. Every food item that passes your lips is a choice to ingest those calories.
Medicine and medical conditions can make it more difficult, but what you eat is *always* still a choice.
Then why are you so fat?1 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »^ I'm not going to judge people, you don't know what's going on in someone else's life.
We have Sweets and soda manufacturers advertising to kids, most people have been addicted to sugar and salt since they were kids
And it's not just about calories, the food industry is willing to sell cancer causing substances wrapped in sugar to kids in order to make an extra penny on the dollar.
Yeah I believe in personal accountability, but you hold yourself accountable, not people you know nothing about.
It's too easy for people to get on a high horse and start pointing fingers at everyone else who has problems they don't, while acting like they don't have any problems themselves that the people they point at don't either.
Love this. You get a friend request!3 -
thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.
My issue is with #1. Did they choose?
People don't understand the power of habit, genetic makeup, medications and stress that combine to make weight loss or gain more complicated than a choice.
For years, I chose to lose weight and gained weight instead.
It was only after much prayer and solutions to the obstacles I faced was I able to lose weight.
So what I'm saying is that you think a lot less compassionately than you act, and I'm sure it comes across even if you are unaware of it.
You are right, there are many factors combined in trying to lose weight. The fact that you were ineffectively engaged in trying to lose weight didn't take away from the fact that you were still trying.
And that makes you different from a good chunk of fat acceptance advocates.
What you fail to realize is that there are people actively choosing to give up on losing weight and are actively choosing to be overfat.
If I'm not mistaken, that is the group of people the other poster was referring to.
Sometimes getting off the rollercoaster for a while to just love oneself is what is needed for some people's mental health. And better self love and peace leads to positive change.
As for me, I just refused to hate myself (God forgave me, so I'm not holding on to guilt), and I refused to stop trying. But you couldn't tell that from looking at me, so I'm sure people were busy judging, no matter that I was putting in more effort.
And advice from people like move less, eat more or calories in, calories out, do the hard work, or just do it, was the equivalent of a business person saying the key to business success is to make more sales than expenses. You see how trite it sounds to your ears when applied in other situations.
You're missing what I'm saying here.
I am not talking about people like you, who are still interested in pursuing a healthy weight at some point. I'm not talking about people who are aware they have issues with food and a problem with eating and just can't figure out how to address it.
I am not talking about the idea that people can't and shouldn't love and accept themselves.
There is a group of people who actively embrace out and out gluttony. There is just no other word for it. Posts from the celebrating binging in parking lots on fast food. This is behavior most people would feel embarrassed about, and they celebrate it as part of the life they lead.
They want to be protected as a special class, feeling they were just born this way, wanting to eat massive quantities of unhealthy food and have absolutely no self-awareness connecting their behavior to their size or idea that they might have emotional issues underlying the drive to keep eating.
This is a good chunk of the Fat Acceptance movement. Can you really support these people, committing slow suicide by food, not through ignorance, nor inability to conquer demons in spite of their best efforts, but through the active choice to plug their ears to and blind their eyes to everything telling them that it's unhealthy to be the way they choose to be.
I know I can't.
5 -
I have seen people fat shame and skinny shame. I have seen plenty of underweight girls and guys be shamed for being so unhealthy. Science has proven being underweight is just as detrimental to your health as being obese. My sister is underweight. She is always in the hospital. Always gets sick. Has lost her teeth etc. I think people in general tend to be more excepting of underweight opposed to obese but these are no different from one another as far as health issues go. The only difference is visual. I think this is what should be talked about more.1
-
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.
My issue is with #1. Did they choose?
People don't understand the power of habit, genetic makeup, medications and stress that combine to make weight loss or gain more complicated than a choice.
For years, I chose to lose weight and gained weight instead.
It was only after much prayer and solutions to the obstacles I faced was I able to lose weight.
So what I'm saying is that you think a lot less compassionately than you act, and I'm sure it comes across even if you are unaware of it.
You are right, there are many factors combined in trying to lose weight. The fact that you were ineffectively engaged in trying to lose weight didn't take away from the fact that you were still trying.
And that makes you different from a good chunk of fat acceptance advocates.
What you fail to realize is that there are people actively choosing to give up on losing weight and are actively choosing to be overfat.
If I'm not mistaken, that is the group of people the other poster was referring to.
Sometimes getting off the rollercoaster for a while to just love oneself is what is needed for some people's mental health. And better self love and peace leads to positive change.
As for me, I just refused to hate myself (God forgave me, so I'm not holding on to guilt), and I refused to stop trying. But you couldn't tell that from looking at me, so I'm sure people were busy judging, no matter that I was putting in more effort.
And advice from people like move less, eat more or calories in, calories out, do the hard work, or just do it, was the equivalent of a business person saying the key to business success is to make more sales than expenses. You see how trite it sounds to your ears when applied in other situations.
You're missing what I'm saying here.
I am not talking about people like you, who are still interested in pursuing a healthy weight at some point. I'm not talking about people who are aware they have issues with food and a problem with eating and just can't figure out how to address it.
I am not talking about the idea that people can't and shouldn't love and accept themselves.
There is a group of people who actively embrace out and out gluttony. There is just no other word for it. Posts from the celebrating binging in parking lots on fast food. This is behavior most people would feel embarrassed about, and they celebrate it as part of the life they lead.
They want to be protected as a special class, feeling they were just born this way, wanting to eat massive quantities of unhealthy food and have absolutely no self-awareness connecting their behavior to their size or idea that they might have emotional issues underlying the drive to keep eating.
This is a good chunk of the Fat Acceptance movement. Can you really support these people, committing slow suicide by food, not through ignorance, nor inability to conquer demons in spite of their best efforts, but through the active choice to plug their ears to and blind their eyes to everything telling them that it's unhealthy to be the way they choose to be.
I know I can't.
I can. I'm all for letting people do whatever the hell they want. If they want to eat themselves to death and take up two plane seats while doing it, I consider it none of my business. I'll enjoy them while they're here, especially if they're smart, funny, caring or interesting in some way which makes me want to be friends with them.
And as far as the argument goes that supports indignation at having to pay for their subsidized healthcare or Section 8 apartments for the super morbidly obese, I don't really care about that either. If the taxes I pay go in part to rehabilitate, detoxify, house, feed and transport citizens who harm themselves similarly by indulging in other bad habits - and they most definitely do - then I'm fine with a portion of my income pie going to the suicidal eaters.
When and if they ever suss out actual criteria for the small subset of the morbidly obese who meet the threshold for being addicted to eating? I'd have no problem with them being subsidized, because addiction is a mental illness.
Not all obese people are addicts, though.2
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