Squat Pains a Plenty - Low Bar

smittybuilt19

The more I lift the more I understand that sometimes, barring any egregious form errors, one most tweak lifts to suit them. How do you know your squat stance is too wide. I generally ignore pain as I know I'm stiff in early sets and it will go away, however, I notice more and more that squats are causing me legitimate pain in, what I would describe as, the femoral head area.

I have always tried to squat as wide as possible since that's what all low bar videos say to do. I just wonder if I could lessen the pain by narrowing a bit but still keep the low bar style?

Thanks

JayRuby84

Curious to see answers to this. I experience pain in the knees when lunging/ squatting.

auddii

I don't squat as wide as possible, I squat as wide as I need to. Drop your weight relatively low while working on form, and experiment with different stances until you find what is comfortable for you. For me, my feet are wider than shoulder width, but not too much, and my feet turn out. If I'm too wide in my stance, I usually will end up with knee pain.

smittybuilt19

Thank you. I appear to be slightly wider than shoulder width when un-loaded and purposely looking at stance width, however, when loaded and lifting I think I may be going wider than that and it is really starting to hurt as the weight increases.

Wronkletoad

how are your knees behaving (drooping inwards or anything?) while rising?

am also curious - is there some targeted vastus medalias work that could support the knee better to prevent the discomfort...

ORTHOs - weigh in!!!

mcblevins

I have the same pain but just in one hip. I am commenting as I want to know as well.

But, I will add that my pain is lessened by stretching REALLY well before starting squates (always my first weight workout).

Stretching includes deep squat stands, couch stretches, and some various other stretches with the first two seeming to give me the most flexibility.

ryanwood935

If you are sticking with the low bar squat, don't make your stance too narrow. Shoulder width is fine, but inside that may transfer problems to your lower back, as you will likely start leaning forward to compensate for your stance. Experiment with the direction your toes point as well as stance width.

In my experience, it was a lack of hip mobility causing me pain. Lots of targeted stretching has helped my pain. I also warm up a lot better than I used to. Few minutes jogging, followed by a number of relevant hip mobility drills, and 5-6 warmup sets slowly building up to working weight.

dbmata

I would make sure that your knees aren't collapsing in. I can go as wide as sumo, with a knee I'm currently rehabbing, and not have knee pain a long as I keep those knees from collapsing.

The moment I get tired and they start falling in, the knee pain begins immediately. I think my standard stance width is a 2-3 inches outside my shoulder on each side, and with probably close to a 30 degree turn out. Granted, I've found that position of relative comfort over a few thousand squats since this summer.

No_Finish_Line

the width of your squat stance should effect what part of the quads are stressed more. The closer the feet are together, the more is should stress the outer part of the thighs while further away should focus more on inner.
Neither is necessarily more correct then the other in that sense. if it is indeed the width of your stance that is causing pain, I'd definitely adjust inward till it was more reasonably comfortable.

smittybuilt19

Wronkletoad wrote: »

how are your knees behaving (drooping inwards or anything?) while rising?

am also curious - is there some targeted vastus medalias work that could support the knee better to prevent the discomfort...

ORTHOs - weigh in!!!

I am able to keep knees pushing out while rising however it does increase the pain.

smittybuilt19

ryanwood935 wrote: »

If you are sticking with the low bar squat, don't make your stance too narrow. Shoulder width is fine, but inside that may transfer problems to your lower back, as you will likely start leaning forward to compensate for your stance. Experiment with the direction your toes point as well as stance width.

In my experience, it was a lack of hip mobility causing me pain. Lots of targeted stretching has helped my pain. I also warm up a lot better than I used to. Few minutes jogging, followed by a number of relevant hip mobility drills, and 5-6 warmup sets slowly building up to working weight.

Narrowing too much while low bar is my fear. I will try very small increments inward until it gets more comfortable as well as toe direction. I just stood at my desk and squatted with my usual toe angle and then pointed them outward a bit more and noticed a significant difference.

DopeItUp

Definitely focus on relative comfort first. If you're in pain while squatting, you aren't gonna stick with it and/or you're gonna get hurt sooner or later. Wider stance == more stress on hips. I already deadlift sumo so I bring in my stance quite a bit on the squat. I have my heels at almost exactly shoulder width, which is considered a pretty moderate squat stance and is pretty typical in fact.

smittybuilt19

DopeItUp wrote: »

Definitely focus on relative comfort first. If you're in pain while squatting, you aren't gonna stick with it and/or you're gonna get hurt sooner or later. Wider stance == more stress on hips. I already deadlift sumo so I bring in my stance quite a bit on the squat. I have my heels at almost exactly shoulder width, which is considered a pretty moderate squat stance and is pretty typical in fact.

Thanks Dope! As always I will apply your advice and adjust accordingly.

smittybuilt19

Update. I did squat on lunch break with a bit more narrow stance. I am reaching capacity on work weight so my form is a little dorked up right now, however, the pain I described above was less than usual. I also pointed my toes out a slight bit more than I normally do.

JeffseekingV

At this point, take a few videos of your work sets. One from the side and one from the front.

rick_po

Also, in general, the wider your stance, the more you need to angle your feet outward. If you don't have enough flexibility to get your feet at a wide angle through the whole range of motion, you should use a narrower stance and less angled feet. And, of course, no matter what your stance, the knees always move parallel with the feet.

smittybuilt19

https://youtube.com/watch?v=wYNzS9ri5i0&feature=youtu.be
This was yesterday at lunch. I didn't get a front shot. I didn't read Jeff's reply until afterward. As I said yesterday, form is likely failing, I feel that I am approaching max work weight capacity.

Thanks.

auddii

smittybuilt19 wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=wYNzS9ri5i0&feature=youtu.be
This was yesterday at lunch. I didn't get a front shot. I didn't read Jeff's reply until afterward. As I said yesterday, form is likely failing, I feel that I am approaching max work weight capacity.

Thanks.

Did you experience pain during that set? For the first few reps, it looks like your knees are staying out and tracking over your toes (hard to tell because of the angle), but the last two it looks like there's some wiggle in your knees. Almost like they were caving inward, you saw it and tried to push them out. It may be that your knees are collapsing in and you really need to focus on pushing the knees out during the entire movement.

The hardest thing I've found with lifting is that there is so much to think about. I realize this part of my form is off, so I really focus on it, and then something else goes to *kitten*. Focus on that, and the first thing starts going wrong again.

I do think it's a form issue, and maybe some others can chime in with some suggestions too.

auddii

Also, I saw you posted this in the ETP group. They have a great form check thread to post videos. I'd post the video there as well (and other angles if you can get them later) as they have a ton of experienced lifters who read that thread.

djprice_69

Google "Louie Simmons Squat" and you'll see plenty of pictures on squatting form.

natecooper75

djprice_69 wrote: »

Google "Louie Simmons Squat" and you'll see plenty of pictures on squatting form.

Is Louie Simmons the best person to use as an example in this situation? Most of his principles apply more to geared lifting. The form for a multi-ply squat isn't going to be the best form for a non-geared (raw) squatter to use. I would check out Powerliftingtowin or Johnnie Candito on Youtube. Both are great raw lifters with a good understanding of form and muscle function.

levitateme

I used to have knee pain while squatting. I don't anymore. I squat highbar, and I stand with my feet slightly beyond shoulder with, toes slightly turned out. The things that saved my knees:

1) Squat down, not back. Your legs should be wide enough that your butt fits neatly between them.
2) Picture "trying to open jars with your heels" on your descent. That cue really helped me, but basically the gist is "force your knees out"
3) You should be sturdy enough that you can pause at the bottom of the squat for several seconds and be solid, not wobbly.
4) Most important form fix for me for squat form in general: where you put your hands on the bar is way more important that you think. I keep them just where the knurling begins, and I drive my elbows down hard throughout the entire movement
5) Foam roll your IT bands every day
6) when you're done squatting, you should feel like you just did a bunch of sit ups. That's how important engaging your core is to the movement and your form as a whole.

dbmata

So a couple thoughts, push those elbows forward, that should help raise your chest, and combat some of the core collapse happening. Also, make sure you're bracing your core. Big belly breath in, brace *kitten* hard, and squat. From what I can see, you aren't bracing up, and that's going to be important for heavier squats.

There's a bit of knee wiggle in the last couple reps, it looks like your knee comes out and then wiggles in, might be something to look at.

What does your spotter see with your form?

JeffseekingV

dbmata wrote: »

So a couple thoughts, push those elbows forward, that should help raise your chest, and combat some of the core collapse happening. Also, make sure you're bracing your core. Big belly breath in, brace *kitten* hard, and squat. From what I can see, you aren't bracing up, and that's going to be important for heavier squats.

There's a bit of knee wiggle in the last couple reps, it looks like your knee comes out and then wiggles in, might be something to look at.

What does your spotter see with your form?

While I didn't see anything too bad in those squats, the above suggestions are solid. In fact, I'll have to review my own setup to see if I tuck my elbows in

dbmata

What I kept seeing consistently is that he's standing in two motions.... *kitten* rises up, then he starts bringing up the chest. That should be one movement without levering. It can potentially be tied to two reasons, abdominal collapse due to lack of proper bracing, or just too much forward lean preventing a single upward movement.

Screwing those elbows forward will help raise that chest and let the chest and back rise as the hips do.

The squats aren't too bad, I know when I get tired, my squats start looking like that two beat standing motion, but it's not optimal. It also feels like you're losing a lot of leverage. Anyway, just my uneducated opinion.

Sam_I_Am77

dbmata wrote: »

So a couple thoughts, push those elbows forward, that should help raise your chest, and combat some of the core collapse happening. Also, make sure you're bracing your core. Big belly breath in, brace *kitten* hard, and squat. From what I can see, you aren't bracing up, and that's going to be important for heavier squats.

There's a bit of knee wiggle in the last couple reps, it looks like your knee comes out and then wiggles in, might be something to look at.

What does your spotter see with your form?

Aside from that, I would suggest a video from the front as well so we can better see what your knees and feet are doing. In addition to what was mentioned, it seems like you need to improve your core strength a little. Some work on your abs, obliques, and low back is warranted, possibly some separate glute work as well. Something like back raises can address the low back and glutes.

JeffseekingV

Core work. Try doing light front squats. If you are doing sitting shoulder presses or OHP, do them standing up. Power cleans. And the normal planks, sit ups, supermans etc...

JoRocka

auddii wrote: »

I don't squat as wide as possible, I squat as wide as I need to. Drop your weight relatively low while working on form, and experiment with different stances until you find what is comfortable for you. For me, my feet are wider than shoulder width, but not too much, and my feet turn out. If I'm too wide in my stance, I usually will end up with knee pain.

truth to this.

there is not perfect/right answer. You have to wiggle and finagle quiet a bit to figure out what's best for you.

I can't watch said video- but if you're good-morninging your squats- (that two beat thing db is talking about) often times it's a strength and a bracing issue.

If you haven't tried a belt- try a belt- it's not for your back- but for bracing- and if you aren't used to that- don't know what it feels like- a belt can help bring awareness to what you need to be locking up to help support. I realized after starting to squat with a belt- I was literally just powering through with no internal bracing- made for sloppy collapsed squats.

A belt can bring awareness to that and help teach you how to brace- with or without the belt (I mostly squat belt-less) but once I get heavier I bust out the belt- but it certainly HELPED focus attention there.

dbmata

I'm printing out and framing this thread. People said I was right.

Granted, I'm always right but... lol.

JoRocka

I'm going to write this down. in my calender.

dbmata

It is a red letter day, Jo.