How does cardio cause muscle loss?
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Ah sounds goodjeremywm1977 wrote: »Is there a minimum of resistance/strength training that one needs per week in order to help maintain current muscle mass? I mean I know why I should do it, but I now prefer to run then lift weights. I was lifting 3 times a week months ago, but would 2 full body days be enough? Are body weight exercises enough when eating in a deficit?
I'm a big proponent of body weight exercises.......so much variety, so much more money in your pocket (money saved from not buying equipment or paying for gym memberships).
Pound for pound, nothing beats the push up or burpee, or perhaps the burpee push up. No weights needed for that beast........and you work your upper body, lower body, core, plus it's cardio. I absolutely love the Prison Cell Push Up from P90X.......look it up on YouTube (I checked, it's there) and give it a try.
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Double post.
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britishbroccoli wrote: »Cardio does not cause you to lose muscle. Eating at a deficit will cause you to lose weight. That weight will come from fat, muscle, tissue, etc. Lifting while you lose weight will help you retain a larger percentage of the muscle you would otherwise lose during your deficit.
People who start out overweight/obese often have a lot of muscle (needed to carry around the excess pounds). A 300 lb person is literally carrying around 300 lbs every day. If that person starts losing weight, he's going to be carrying less and less. The muscles that were straining and working to carry around his frame (thus, working out those muscles), are no longer working as hard. He will lose that muscle slowly over time unless he adds resistance training designed to help him maintain some of that muscle. Muscle: if you don't use it, you lose it.
I had a friend years ago who lost over 100lb and what was under that was amazing muscle. His doctor said it was because he was carrying around the equivilant of barbells all day. He had to work to keep fit, but it still was fantastic.
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mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »You guys ever think about the movements in terms of range of motion? ie.. consider running and something like squatting (to proper depth) and deads (proper form). Much different range of motions and mucles used. I don't think you can equate the two in terms of a discussion about muscle retention
What about things like burpees, mountain climbers, hiking or swimming?
Not sure people are pushing burpees and mountain climbers for endurance but they are definitely a strength builders up to a point. Getting to 50 burpees in a row is great but eventually is stops being a strength builder. Hiking and swimming will have the same limitations for adaptation that other forms of cardio will have. Eventually you will need to increase the resistance to continue to adapt. Just doing it longer wont have any additional strength building effect.
Again swimming laps for an hour is not the same as sprinting for time. Just like lifting a light weight a hundred times is not strength training. I think most people know the difference.
Sorry, I wasn't asking if they were strength training. I was suggesting they can help preserve muscle more than the common example of running. Though trail running can provide quite a bit of leg resistance.
I do disagree that lifting a light weight 100 times could not build strength though.0 -
I can only go off of my personal experience but for me there is a definite difference in muscle mass between running without strength training and running while strength training. I started running in April of 2011, running was my only cardio and I wasn't doing any strength training at all. I run distances up to half marathons so running for me is anywhere from 20-30 miles per week. At the height of my original running stint, my weight bounced between 120 and 125 pounds (I'm 5'3"). While I was happy with my weight, I didn't have much muscle definition beyond my calves which have always carried little fat and been fairly muscular.
I had to take a few months off early this year, put on a few pounds, and when I started running again in May I also decided to start strength training. My weight is currently bouncing between 130 and 135. I'm wearing the same clothes I was able to wear when I was 120-125 and I can definitely see muscle definition in my thighs now that wasn't there last year or the year before. My calves are larger and more defined as are my biceps. I have been measuring these areas since 2011 so I know beyond a doubt that there's a difference in the size between then and now.
ETA: I'm not including my thigh measurements in the above because that's where I carry my weight. A reduction in fat and an increase in muscle leaves me at nearly the same size as I was at 10 pounds lighter (21.5") but now there's visible muscle movement and bulk beneath the layer of fat.
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People who debate cardio vs. weights for fat loss often assume that the type of cardio has no strength component. Anyone who bikes or runs up steps hills is building lots of lower body strength and if you are kayaking you are building upper body strength. Dedicated lifting work outs are more efficient time-wise and do provide the opportunity to tackle more areas of the body in one work out.
Likewise lifting with a lot of compound exercises and little rest certainly feels a lot like cardio to me. Personally I think everyone should do both with the emphasis on cardio vs. weights depending on your goals. Weight lifting may be better at preventing muscle loss but both can be advantageous depending on the specific choices made. Certainly, both cardio and lifting enthusiasts are ahead of the average person who is lying on their coach gaining weight and losing muscle due to lack of use.
I agree with this. plus if you truly want to be physically fit you have to do some form of cardio, even if its compound exercises in a circuit. and by phisically fit i don't mean a marathon runner or even a 5k runner, just enough to promote cardiovascular health. Personally think you'd want to do a little more pure cardio then that to be well rounded tho.
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mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »You guys ever think about the movements in terms of range of motion? ie.. consider running and something like squatting (to proper depth) and deads (proper form). Much different range of motions and mucles used. I don't think you can equate the two in terms of a discussion about muscle retention
What about things like burpees, mountain climbers, hiking or swimming?
Not sure people are pushing burpees and mountain climbers for endurance but they are definitely a strength builders up to a point.
they do in Insanity
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »You guys ever think about the movements in terms of range of motion? ie.. consider running and something like squatting (to proper depth) and deads (proper form). Much different range of motions and mucles used. I don't think you can equate the two in terms of a discussion about muscle retention
What about things like burpees, mountain climbers, hiking or swimming?
Not sure people are pushing burpees and mountain climbers for endurance but they are definitely a strength builders up to a point. Getting to 50 burpees in a row is great but eventually is stops being a strength builder. Hiking and swimming will have the same limitations for adaptation that other forms of cardio will have. Eventually you will need to increase the resistance to continue to adapt. Just doing it longer wont have any additional strength building effect.
Again swimming laps for an hour is not the same as sprinting for time. Just like lifting a light weight a hundred times is not strength training. I think most people know the difference.
Sorry, I wasn't asking if they were strength training. I was suggesting they can help preserve muscle more than the common example of running. Though trail running can provide quite a bit of leg resistance.
I do disagree that lifting a light weight 100 times could not build strength though.
I would say yes then to the bolded section. They would have a much bigger strength component through a bigger range of motion and involve your full body. Just like other body weight strength movements like a push up it would be enough to preserve your current muscle. But that is strength training not cardio.
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No_Finish_Line wrote: »mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »You guys ever think about the movements in terms of range of motion? ie.. consider running and something like squatting (to proper depth) and deads (proper form). Much different range of motions and mucles used. I don't think you can equate the two in terms of a discussion about muscle retention
What about things like burpees, mountain climbers, hiking or swimming?
Not sure people are pushing burpees and mountain climbers for endurance but they are definitely a strength builders up to a point.
they do in Insanity
Sorry you are correct. I meant more in line with an 60+ minute run or all day hike kind of comparison.
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mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »No_Finish_Line wrote: »mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »You guys ever think about the movements in terms of range of motion? ie.. consider running and something like squatting (to proper depth) and deads (proper form). Much different range of motions and mucles used. I don't think you can equate the two in terms of a discussion about muscle retention
What about things like burpees, mountain climbers, hiking or swimming?
Not sure people are pushing burpees and mountain climbers for endurance but they are definitely a strength builders up to a point.
they do in Insanity
Sorry you are correct. I meant more in line with an 60+ minute run or all day hike kind of comparison.
saw a youtube clip of a guy doing a mile worth of burpees for his 30th birthday. when around a track 4 times and jumped forward just a little each time. idk how long it took though.
even 30 burpees suck lol0 -
No_Finish_Line wrote: »mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »No_Finish_Line wrote: »mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »You guys ever think about the movements in terms of range of motion? ie.. consider running and something like squatting (to proper depth) and deads (proper form). Much different range of motions and mucles used. I don't think you can equate the two in terms of a discussion about muscle retention
What about things like burpees, mountain climbers, hiking or swimming?
Not sure people are pushing burpees and mountain climbers for endurance but they are definitely a strength builders up to a point.
they do in Insanity
Sorry you are correct. I meant more in line with an 60+ minute run or all day hike kind of comparison.
saw a youtube clip of a guy doing a mile worth of burpees for his 30th birthday. when around a track 4 times and jumped forward just a little each time. idk how long it took though.
even 30 burpees suck lol
Barf city. Too elite for me.
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People who debate cardio vs. weights for fat loss often assume that the type of cardio has no strength component. Anyone who bikes or runs up steps hills is building lots of lower body strength and if you are kayaking you are building upper body strength. Dedicated lifting work outs are more efficient time-wise and do provide the opportunity to tackle more areas of the body in one work out.
Likewise lifting with a lot of compound exercises and little rest certainly feels a lot like cardio to me. Personally I think everyone should do both with the emphasis on cardio vs. weights depending on your goals. Weight lifting may be better at preventing muscle loss but both can be advantageous depending on the specific choices made. Certainly, both cardio and lifting enthusiasts are ahead of the average person who is lying on their coach gaining weight and losing muscle due to lack of use.
I agree with your statements as it pertains to strength. But to get semantic about it, I think the OP is talking about muscle mass. Although related they aren't exactly the same.
Gaining strength through CNS development probably involves some muscle mass gain but less so when you are eating at a deficit. People here have said you can gain strength in a deficit by CNS but gaining muscle mass while in a deficit. I only mention deficit because you mention fat loss. I could have misunderstood0 -
mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »You guys ever think about the movements in terms of range of motion? ie.. consider running and something like squatting (to proper depth) and deads (proper form). Much different range of motions and mucles used. I don't think you can equate the two in terms of a discussion about muscle retention
What about things like burpees, mountain climbers, hiking or swimming?
Not sure people are pushing burpees and mountain climbers for endurance but they are definitely a strength builders up to a point. Getting to 50 burpees in a row is great but eventually is stops being a strength builder. Hiking and swimming will have the same limitations for adaptation that other forms of cardio will have. Eventually you will need to increase the resistance to continue to adapt. Just doing it longer wont have any additional strength building effect.
Again swimming laps for an hour is not the same as sprinting for time. Just like lifting a light weight a hundred times is not strength training. I think most people know the difference.
Not so sure they do, but keep going--you and sIjomial are laying it out for everyone.
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prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
Hehehee you are so dead on!!!!
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Lasmartchika wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
That's what I've noticed around here... if you're not lifting you're doing it wrong. And will never be exercising correctly until you lift. As if there aren't any other types of exercises besides lifting. (...Waits for beheading. :laugh: )
This totally...... see my "I run" topic..... it was aimed at the same thing.
Not everyone CAN lift though.... I can run till the cows come home....but lift anything & you will see me unable to move.
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britishbroccoli wrote: »Cardio does not cause you to lose muscle. Eating at a deficit will cause you to lose weight. That weight will come from fat, muscle, tissue, etc. Lifting while you lose weight will help you retain a larger percentage of the muscle you would otherwise lose during your deficit.
People who start out overweight/obese often have a lot of muscle (needed to carry around the excess pounds). A 300 lb person is literally carrying around 300 lbs every day. If that person starts losing weight, he's going to be carrying less and less. The muscles that were straining and working to carry around his frame (thus, working out those muscles), are no longer working as hard. He will lose that muscle slowly over time unless he adds resistance training designed to help him maintain some of that muscle. Muscle: if you don't use it, you lose it.
Thank you for this. I feel you gave the least biased and consequently most understandable argument...
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pinkraynedropjacki wrote: »Lasmartchika wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
That's what I've noticed around here... if you're not lifting you're doing it wrong. And will never be exercising correctly until you lift. As if there aren't any other types of exercises besides lifting. (...Waits for beheading. :laugh: )
This totally...... see my "I run" topic..... it was aimed at the same thing.
Not everyone CAN lift though.... I can run till the cows come home....but lift anything & you will see me unable to move.
I don't think most here say that. I think it's said more often because lifting is such an ignored option of exercise. Why do you think the cardio section is 4x larger than the free weight section?
I can lift much better than I can run. But I don't dismiss running. It's a legitimate part of being fit. And I "try" to get better at it. Same with swimming. It's like I have a rock attached to my back but I do it and try to improve.0 -
pinkraynedropjacki wrote: »Lasmartchika wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
That's what I've noticed around here... if you're not lifting you're doing it wrong. And will never be exercising correctly until you lift. As if there aren't any other types of exercises besides lifting. (...Waits for beheading. :laugh: )
This totally...... see my "I run" topic..... it was aimed at the same thing.
Not everyone CAN lift though.... I can run till the cows come home....but lift anything & you will see me unable to move.
just as I would recommend someone who only lifts do some cardio, I'd certainly recommend the reverse.
plenty of lifters force themselves to do cardio because of the health benefits.
if your in it for your health, there are AT LEAST as many health benefits to lifting as there are to cardio.
its not the 'end all be all' of exercise, no one form of exercise is, but your doing yourself a disservice from a health stand point if you avoid it
you CAN lift. I'm not sure there is any medical condition other then full paralysis that will prevent you from lifting period, in some form.0 -
jenjay8045 wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
Hehehee you are so dead on!!!!
Except he isn't...because...
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pinkraynedropjacki wrote: »Lasmartchika wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
That's what I've noticed around here... if you're not lifting you're doing it wrong. And will never be exercising correctly until you lift. As if there aren't any other types of exercises besides lifting. (...Waits for beheading. :laugh: )
This totally...... see my "I run" topic..... it was aimed at the same thing.
Not everyone CAN lift though.... I can run till the cows come home....but lift anything & you will see me unable to move.
Im not sure what your particular issue is to why you are unable to move but recommending strength training in addition to just cardio is not a bad thing. If you think it is just a bunch of meat heads telling people to do this then maybe you will find these link interesting.
circ.ahajournals.org/content/101/7/828.full
cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/why/
mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/fitness/in-depth/strength-training/art-20046670
arthritistoday.org/about-arthritis/types-of-arthritis/rheumatoid-arthritis/daily-life/staying-active/strength-training-benefits.php
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14552938
One is not better than the other and neither is all you need.0 -
jenjay8045 wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
Hehehee you are so dead on!!!!
So... no activity done which would aid in retaining LBM, yet some LBM is being added?0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »jenjay8045 wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
Hehehee you are so dead on!!!!
So... no activity done which would aid in retaining LBM, yet some LBM is being added?
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mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »pinkraynedropjacki wrote: »Lasmartchika wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
That's what I've noticed around here... if you're not lifting you're doing it wrong. And will never be exercising correctly until you lift. As if there aren't any other types of exercises besides lifting. (...Waits for beheading. :laugh: )
This totally...... see my "I run" topic..... it was aimed at the same thing.
Not everyone CAN lift though.... I can run till the cows come home....but lift anything & you will see me unable to move.
Im not sure what your particular issue is to why you are unable to move but recommending strength training in addition to just cardio is not a bad thing. If you think it is just a bunch of meat heads telling people to do this then maybe you will find these link interesting.
circ.ahajournals.org/content/101/7/828.full
cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/why/
mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/fitness/in-depth/strength-training/art-20046670
arthritistoday.org/about-arthritis/types-of-arthritis/rheumatoid-arthritis/daily-life/staying-active/strength-training-benefits.php
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14552938
One is not better than the other and neither is all you need.
^All of that.0 -
mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »pinkraynedropjacki wrote: »Lasmartchika wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
That's what I've noticed around here... if you're not lifting you're doing it wrong. And will never be exercising correctly until you lift. As if there aren't any other types of exercises besides lifting. (...Waits for beheading. :laugh: )
This totally...... see my "I run" topic..... it was aimed at the same thing.
Not everyone CAN lift though.... I can run till the cows come home....but lift anything & you will see me unable to move.
Im not sure what your particular issue is to why you are unable to move but recommending strength training in addition to just cardio is not a bad thing. If you think it is just a bunch of meat heads telling people to do this then maybe you will find these link interesting.
circ.ahajournals.org/content/101/7/828.full
cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/why/
mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/fitness/in-depth/strength-training/art-20046670
arthritistoday.org/about-arthritis/types-of-arthritis/rheumatoid-arthritis/daily-life/staying-active/strength-training-benefits.php
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14552938
One is not better than the other and neither is all you need.
mustgetmuscles - Thanks for posting this. It is strange that there are still women who don't understand that there are so many benefits to lifting.
"I can run till the cows come home....but lift anything & you will see me unable to move." This reminds me of some of the success stories that I have read where OP states that when they started running they could barely make it around their block without feeling like they were about to die - 6 months later they are doing 10Ks and loving it. The same approach works for starting to lift - research, learn technique, have the courage to start and work progressively harder to see results. The only reason you can't lift is that you haven't started and perhaps you don't want to, but I doubt it is a "can't" scenario. Lifters wouldn't advocate you start with lifting weights so heavy you are immobilized anymore than you would suggest someone run a marathon without any preparation.0 -
There are three main aspects too fitness - Strength, speed and endurance.
People seem to train the last two a lot and miss the first one.0 -
SteveJWatson wrote: »There are three main aspects too fitness - Strength, speed and endurance.
People seem to train the last two a lot and miss the first one.
Flexibility. Even more important than speed.
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SteveJWatson wrote: »There are three main aspects too fitness - Strength, speed and endurance.
People seem to train the last two a lot and miss the first one.
I pulled my hamstring try to do HITT sprinting to improve 1)0 -
jeremywm1977 wrote: »It doesn't cause it, it just does little to prevent it, and in certain circumstances can increase it.
This probably sums it up best.
If you want to do only cardio like treadmill, elliptical, or running, and you enjoy it and can maintain such a routine, and such a routine has caused you to lose weight..........then great, you're already doing more than the next person doing nothing.
As far as the physiology behind your question. If, for instance, all you are doing is running, then over time you are going to become a more efficient runner. Unfortunately, your body is going to work to strengthen those muscles needed to run to create an improved economy of motion, but those muscles not used in your selected workout are going to atrophy.......you body will adapt to improve your selected method of exercise by burning the muscle no longer needed.
Yes, if you maintain a calorie deficit, you are going to appear more muscular-ish, but that is because the fat that previously covered those muscles is burning too.......it's kind of a lose/win.......you're burning fat, but you're also burning muscle which is probably a greater component in burning fat than that 30 minute run you just did.
In the end, do what you want, do what you can maintain and consistently do, and anybody who wishes to tell you you're doing wrong can just go away.
This was helpful too. I think what you're saying is that running strengthens leg muscles, but doens't really do anything for the muscles that aren't really used much in running. That makes sense to me, but wouldn't the same apply to strength training? Calves and quads come immediately to mind. I'm guessing that legs kind of get the short end of the stick in strength training.
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concordancia wrote: »SteveJWatson wrote: »There are three main aspects too fitness - Strength, speed and endurance.
People seem to train the last two a lot and miss the first one.
Flexibility. Even more important than speed.
I would actually venture to say flexibility is the most important (though also the most ignored) part of fitness. Most of the injuries I've read about (and experienced myself) were caused mainly by lack of flexibility leading to bad form and other mechanical issues that resulted in injury.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »jenjay8045 wrote: »prdavies1949 wrote: »Its a load of rubbish promulgated by those who like to pick things up and put them down again. I have lost over 100lbs and believe me that was all fat. I now have more muscle than I have ever had and I haven't lifted anything. (Stands back and waits for flaming)
Hehehee you are so dead on!!!!
So... no activity done which would aid in retaining LBM, yet some LBM is being added?
she then goes on to agree with the person stating "People who start out overweight/obese often have a lot of muscle (needed to carry around the excess pounds). A 300 lb person is literally carrying around 300 lbs every day. If that person starts losing weight, he's going to be carrying less and less. The muscles that were straining and working to carry around his frame (thus, working out those muscles), are no longer working as hard. He will lose that muscle slowly over time unless he adds resistance training designed to help him maintain some of that muscle. Muscle: if you don't use it, you lose it."
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