Hamstring Vs Quad strength

ForecasterJason

I'm just curious if anyone else has dealt with notable strength imbalances between the two. I read that the hamstrings should at the minimum be 60% of the quad strength. For at least one rep, I can lift at least 2.5 times as much weight on the leg extension versus a standing hamstring curl. If this is an accurate way to gauge the strength ratio, that would mean my hamstrings have no more than 40% of the strength of my quads. I do think I have some degree of anterior pelvic tilt, which would explain why my quads are much stronger than they should be. Good thing I've really started to give my hamstrings attention!

Sam_I_Am77

Good good topic. Yes, most people have a strength imbalance between the two which is fairly natural, especially in females. Women experience about 6% more non-contact ACL injuries than men within the same sport. However, you definitely want to improve that ratio as much as you can. Unfortunately I don't remember everything from school, but I believe the minimum of 60% is correct. Under that you significantly increase the likelihood of experiencing a non-contact ACL injury.

You will definitely want to spend some time improving your hamstring strength, oblique strength, gluteal, and quadratus-lumborum. I know people are going to be like, "go SQWAT and dats all you needz to do" but that would be very incorrect for somebody in your situation. Odds are, your knee extensors would take over and you would not get the benefit of squatting anyway and likely hurt yourself in-time.

Taking a few weeks (like 4) to focus on improving the muscles I mentioned above and then you can look into squatting. It's hard to really prescribe something for you without seeing you move, but keeping the above muscle groups in mind; you should probably focus on unilateral movements for now and within the rep range of 12-20 reps with a 4/2/1 (eccentric / pause / concentric) for 1-3 sets for each exercise. Even warm-up with a body-weight exercise like the single-leg romanian deadlift for a couple sets.

mustgetmuscles1

Interesting topic. I have never heard of a percentage but I know a lot of people have an imbalance. In for info.

Sam_I_Am77

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

Interesting topic. I have never heard of a percentage but I know a lot of people have an imbalance. In for info.

If you're interested, search for primary research related to non-contact ACL injuries and you should find a lot of information on this topic.

mustgetmuscles1

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

Interesting topic. I have never heard of a percentage but I know a lot of people have an imbalance. In for info.

If you're interested, search for primary research related to non-contact ACL injuries and you should find a lot of information on this topic.

Dang it I was hoping someone else would do all the searching and just spoon feed me the info.

Thanks man I will check it out.

Sam_I_Am77

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

Interesting topic. I have never heard of a percentage but I know a lot of people have an imbalance. In for info.

If you're interested, search for primary research related to non-contact ACL injuries and you should find a lot of information on this topic.

Dang it I was hoping someone else would do all the searching and just spoon feed me the info.

Thanks man I will check it out.

Ha ha, there's a lot of info out there, much to digest. It really boils down to poor hamstring and gluteal strength causes a ton of problems for people including things like internal hip rotation, foot over-pronation, hyper-lordosis. Those issues lead to a host of other problems.

cwolfman13

I didn't know there was a dialed in %, but I do know that a lot of people neglect their hammies. Some people of course skip leg day entirely...but even people who do more traditional strength training tend to miss on them a bit unwittingly because, while many of the compound lifts hit them, they don't engage them that heavily.

In addition to more traditional compound movements like squats and dead-lifts, I also do Romanians, Single Leg Romanians, Glute Ham Raises, and Snatch Grip deads and Long Stride, explosive lunges to engage mine more.

mustgetmuscles1

I remembered reading an article recently about hamstring activation during different lifts.

Thought it might be helpful here.
http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/can-you-target-different-aspects-of-the-hamstrings/

Sam_I_Am77

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

I remembered reading an article recently about hamstring activation during different lifts.

Thought it might be helpful here.
http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/can-you-target-different-aspects-of-the-hamstrings/

Nice find, Dr. Shoenfeld is definitely a smart guy and has published a lot of good research. The findings are very interesting and definitely make sense regarding the leg curl and SLDL; it definitely lends some support for doing some leg curls here and there.

ForecasterJason

Thanks for the suggestions. I didn't know before that deadlifts can be done without weights. I don't have access to equipment that would allow me to do deadlifts, so I will definitely consider adding bodyweight SLDL to my routine.

Sam_I_Am77

ForecasterJason wrote: »

Thanks for the suggestions. I didn't know before that deadlifts can be done without weights. I don't have access to equipment that would allow me to do deadlifts, so I will definitely consider adding bodyweight SLDL to my routine.

The first time I did a body-weight RDL (about 7 years ago) I could not believe how sore my hammies were the next day. They require a bit of balance, which is good, but it's a good exercise for those that have significant hamstring deficiency or even just to warm-up.

Sam_I_Am77

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

I remembered reading an article recently about hamstring activation during different lifts.

Thought it might be helpful here.
http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/can-you-target-different-aspects-of-the-hamstrings/

Thanks for posting this, I never even thought to Google him to see if he had a blog. His blog page is REALLY good; it's something everybody on MFP should follow.

kstej

I used to be super quad dominant with pretty strong quads and mediocre hammies and I didn't really think it was a big deal until I started working out with a friend who pushed me to start doing more hammie isolation type exercises and I was SHOCKED at how much and how quick my squat went up as my hammies were developing. I think I went from a one-rep max squat of 215 to 305 in less than 3 months and I almost completely attribute that to hamstring development because it was really the only thing I changed in my routine during that time. AND on top of that it was much easier to maintain good form through my entire squat because my anterior and posterior chains were working more cohesively with one another. Needless to say, I'm now a believer in the power of legit hams

dbmata

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

You will definitely want to spend some time improving your hamstring strength, oblique strength, gluteal, and quadratus-lumborum. I know people are going to be like, "go SQWAT and dats all you needz to do" but that would be very incorrect for somebody in your situation. Odds are, your knee extensors would take over and you would not get the benefit of squatting anyway and likely hurt yourself in-time.

except of course we all know that people who say that actually squat and deadlift and that will be all that most need to do.

Cherimoose

ForecasterJason wrote: »

I do think I have some degree of anterior pelvic tilt, which would explain why my quads are much stronger than they should be.

Anterior pelvic tilt.. if you truly have it (it's an overdiagnosed condition).. just means your lumbar and hip flexor muscles are a little tight and overactive, which doesn't necessarily correlate with maximal strength. Many strong people have poor posture, and many weak people have good posture.

Just curious - why are you conducting these strength imbalance tests?

spirit095

In for info. I've been trying to target my hamstrings and posterior chain more now.

Sam_I_Am77

kstej wrote: »

I used to be super quad dominant with pretty strong quads and mediocre hammies and I didn't really think it was a big deal until I started working out with a friend who pushed me to start doing more hammie isolation type exercises and I was SHOCKED at how much and how quick my squat went up as my hammies were developing. I think I went from a one-rep max squat of 215 to 305 in less than 3 months and I almost completely attribute that to hamstring development because it was really the only thing I changed in my routine during that time. AND on top of that it was much easier to maintain good form through my entire squat because my anterior and posterior chains were working more cohesively with one another. Needless to say, I'm now a believer in the power of legit hams

That's really awesome!

except of course we all know that people who say that actually squat and deadlift and that will be all that most need to do.

Yes and no. Many people can hop right in and do them and there are many that shouldn't do them at first. Look at Ms. kstej's post above. How many times have you seen that exact issue posted on MFP? I've read it many times in case studies I had to review this past semester; it's not all that uncommon. Unfortunately many people fight through it and just do the exercise wrong, and then later on complain about knee pain. kstej was fortunate to learn quickly that other hamstring development is sometimes required in-order to squat, and look what happened to her results. There are many decent sized men in my gym that can't squat 305.

auddii

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

I remembered reading an article recently about hamstring activation during different lifts.

Thought it might be helpful here.
http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/can-you-target-different-aspects-of-the-hamstrings/

I was really looking forward to reading that article. Unfortunately my state institution does not think it is an appropriate website... Bookmarking to read at home.

ForecasterJason

Cherimoose wrote: »

ForecasterJason wrote: »

I do think I have some degree of anterior pelvic tilt, which would explain why my quads are much stronger than they should be.

Anterior pelvic tilt.. if you truly have it (it's an overdiagnosed condition).. just means your lumbar and hip flexor muscles are a little tight and overactive, which doesn't necessarily correlate with maximal strength. Many strong people have poor posture, and many weak people have good posture.

Just curious - why are you conducting these strength imbalance tests?

The last time I went to the doctor, he could tell I have an imbalance in my legs. Around that time, my joints started to become noisy at times (it started at my knees and then spread). I've also noticed a long ride cycling causes my quads to become very tight, and it's been this way for years. Also, while I can stand up with good posture, it's become "natural" for me to stand and walk with my pelvis out of the position I thought it should be in.

Cherimoose

ForecasterJason wrote: »

The last time I went to the doctor, he could tell I have an imbalance in my legs. Around that time, my joints started to become noisy at times (it started at my knees and then spread). I've also noticed a long ride cycling causes my quads to become very tight, and it's been this way for years. Also, while I can stand up with good posture, it's become "natural" for me to stand and walk with my pelvis out of the position I thought it should be in.

Not sure what you're doing to correct it, but the fix is to stretch the hip flexors as often as possibly (hourly is ideal), and contract your glutes and abs all throughout the day. Posture doesn't require strength - it's an endurance activity with a low-level of muscle activation.

ForecasterJason

Cherimoose wrote: »

ForecasterJason wrote: »

The last time I went to the doctor, he could tell I have an imbalance in my legs. Around that time, my joints started to become noisy at times (it started at my knees and then spread). I've also noticed a long ride cycling causes my quads to become very tight, and it's been this way for years. Also, while I can stand up with good posture, it's become "natural" for me to stand and walk with my pelvis out of the position I thought it should be in.

Not sure what you're doing to correct it, but the fix is to stretch the hip flexors as often as possibly (hourly is ideal), and contract your glutes and abs all throughout the day. Posture doesn't require strength - it's an endurance activity with a low-level of muscle activation.

Ok thanks. I've stretched my hip flexors some, but definitely not often enough.

tomatoey

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »

Interesting topic. I have never heard of a percentage but I know a lot of people have an imbalance. In for info.

If you're interested, search for primary research related to non-contact ACL injuries and you should find a lot of information on this topic.

Dang it I was hoping someone else would do all the searching and just spoon feed me the info.

Thanks man I will check it out.

Ha ha, there's a lot of info out there, much to digest. It really boils down to poor hamstring and gluteal strength causes a ton of problems for people including things like internal hip rotation, foot over-pronation, hyper-lordosis. Those issues lead to a host of other problems.

QFT. Including anterior knee pain, which I've been reading about tonight.

You also need a reasonably strong vastus medialis obliquus - the large quadricep muscle in the inside/front of the thigh - to prevent knee pain, which can occur when the VMO is weak (in conjunction with weak glutes & hams, poor foot biomechanics [pronation], and a too-tight IT band).

heybales

This site mentions 56-80% range.
Same 2 lifts for correction. Though Brad's study was interesting on complete activation.

http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Weaknesses.html#anchor13175135

Also wanted bumped to find again in case more info.

mustgetmuscles1

heybales wrote: »

This site mentions 56-80% range.
Same 2 lifts for correction. Though Brad's study was interesting on complete activation.

http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Weaknesses.html#anchor13175135

Also wanted bumped to find again in case more info.

Thanks for that link. Good info.

dbmata

god, exrx is just freaking magical.

ForecasterJason

This isn't directly related to the topic, but I just came the realization that I can bicep curl more weight with a dumbbell than I can hamstring curl on my weight machine! What makes this even more weird is that my upper body is tiny in comparison to my lower body.

JoRocka

That's sad.

You best get on that my friend.

dbmata

ForecasterJason wrote: »

This isn't directly related to the topic, but I just came the realization that I can bicep curl more weight with a dumbbell than I can hamstring curl on my weight machine! What makes this even more weird is that my upper body is tiny in comparison to my lower body.

.... wut?

Sounds like it's time to do some hardcore PC work.

heybales

What kind of weight machine doing leg curls on. They may have some pulley's to increase weight.

Please don't say that only 1 arm can do those heavy curls.

I'm picturing something very funny right now, and very off balanced.

dbmata

like a one armed kipping pull up.

ForecasterJason

I'm using a Marcy machine from Impex, and I do the leg curls on the same bar that's used for the leg extension. Yes, there is a pulley system and an additional weight on top of the main stack, so the actual weight I'm lifting could be a bit higher.

However, I just tried to do a leg curl with a heavier weight than what I've been using (20 lbs, which again I don't know if this is really accurate). I also tried to push that bar with my arms (not a true bicep curl). And yes, I found it easier to lift the 20 lbs with my arms than my legs.