Hamstring Vs Quad strength

dbmata

Are you recovering from an injury?

ForecasterJason

No. Although I have regularly done small bouts of cardio (and even some occasional sprints), my lifestyle has been quite sedentary for a few years. My guess is this has greatly contributed to my weak glutes/hamstrings.

dbmata

I'd say you probably just aren't activating what you have.

I personally don't like the leg extension or ham curl machine for newbies, because as a newbie it always destroyed my legs and cause knee pain.

Get a 60# db and do some goblet squats as well as some plie stance goblets and start getting that posterior chain activating.

Sam_I_Am77

Here's the thing, squats don't really activate the hamstrings as well everybody assumes; it's roughly 25% based on EMG data. Additionally, the Biceps Femoris is the most activated and the other two hamstring muscles are typically not really activated in the squat anyway. You will want to use other methods to activate your hamstrings if they are indeed weak.

dbmata

Based on my own experience, I've had the most glute and hamstring activation from:
- Plie Squats
- Sumo deadlifts
- Hip thrusters
- GHR

Are those optimal? You tell me. It doesn't even sound to me like a matter a weak, it sounds to me like he's just not getting them to move, and it doesn't sound like he's in a situation where he has access to barbells.

My question: What would be most efficient to get the pc activated in an untrained lifter who may not be effectively activating those muscles under load bearing exercise?

JoRocka

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

Here's the thing, squats don't really activate the hamstrings as well everybody assumes; it's roughly 25% based on EMG data. Additionally, the Biceps Femoris is the most activated and the other two hamstring muscles are typically not really activated in the squat anyway. You will want to use other methods to activate your hamstrings if they are indeed weak.

I'd like some of those high tech goofy pants that show you how much you're using to watch this happen live on the ap.

ForecasterJason

If possible, I would really like to solve this issue with what I currently have. In addition to doing the leg curls, I do some hip bridges as well. I will also try to stretch my hip flexors more often. The problem with that stretch is that even with two big pillows underneath my knees, I find it puts a lot of pressure on my knees.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the pelvic tilt is more of an issue of endurance rather than strength, so I would think it would be beneficial to do the curls with high reps as well.

dbmata

Dude, don't put pillows in between your thigh and calves. You don't want to add a spacer.

auddii

ForecasterJason wrote: »

If possible, I would really like to solve this issue with what I currently have. In addition to doing the leg curls, I do some hip bridges as well. I will also try to stretch my hip flexors more often. The problem with that stretch is that even with two big pillows underneath my knees, I find it puts a lot of pressure on my knees.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the pelvic tilt is more of an issue of endurance rather than strength, so I would think it would be beneficial to do the curls with high reps as well.

If I recall correctly you are trying to do a bulk. Are you following a pre-made progressive resistance training program?

ForecasterJason

auddii wrote: »

ForecasterJason wrote: »

If possible, I would really like to solve this issue with what I currently have. In addition to doing the leg curls, I do some hip bridges as well. I will also try to stretch my hip flexors more often. The problem with that stretch is that even with two big pillows underneath my knees, I find it puts a lot of pressure on my knees.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the pelvic tilt is more of an issue of endurance rather than strength, so I would think it would be beneficial to do the curls with high reps as well.

If I recall correctly you are trying to do a bulk. Are you following a pre-made progressive resistance training program?

I'm not following an actual program. I actually didn't even think of it when I first started. But it would be difficult given the limited number of compound lifts I can do with the equipment I have.

dbmata wrote:

Dude, don't put pillows in between your thigh and calves. You don't want to add a spacer.

Hmm, well then I'm not sure how to do that stretch without making my knees sore.

dbmata

Just use the right stance. Adjust width, foot angle.

auddii

dbmata wrote: »

Just use the right stance. Adjust width, foot angle.

Yes, find what works for you; I like to turn my feet out slightly.

Also, I would definitely recommend a tried and true program. If you don't have access to equipment, have you thought about a body weight program such as you are your own gym or convict conditioning?

It sounds like you know have enough experience with working out to design your own program, and it seems like you have very little strength, and doing a few exercises here and there likely won't help with the problem. I'd definitely recommend a program that someone else designed, and for a well balanced program with limited equipment, body weight is going to be your best bet.

ForecasterJason

auddii wrote: »

dbmata wrote: »

Just use the right stance. Adjust width, foot angle.

Yes, find what works for you; I like to turn my feet out slightly.

Also, I would definitely recommend a tried and true program. If you don't have access to equipment, have you thought about a body weight program such as you are your own gym or convict conditioning?

It sounds like you know have enough experience with working out to design your own program, and it seems like you have very little strength, and doing a few exercises here and there likely won't help with the problem. I'd definitely recommend a program that someone else designed, and for a well balanced program with limited equipment, body weight is going to be your best bet.

Thanks for the suggestion. Prior to getting the machine I'm using (was recently given to me by a friend), I was actually thinking of doing a simple bodyweight program.
My short term goals are just to improve posture, gain some strength, and put on a few pounds of muscle. I'm sure at some later point I may consider doing things more aggressively with a better setup, but right now I'm content to just be able to improve my posture/strength imbalances and have my upper body filled in some.

Sam_I_Am77

ForecasterJason wrote: »

auddii wrote: »

dbmata wrote: »

Just use the right stance. Adjust width, foot angle.

Yes, find what works for you; I like to turn my feet out slightly.

Also, I would definitely recommend a tried and true program. If you don't have access to equipment, have you thought about a body weight program such as you are your own gym or convict conditioning?

It sounds like you know have enough experience with working out to design your own program, and it seems like you have very little strength, and doing a few exercises here and there likely won't help with the problem. I'd definitely recommend a program that someone else designed, and for a well balanced program with limited equipment, body weight is going to be your best bet.

Thanks for the suggestion. Prior to getting the machine I'm using (was recently given to me by a friend), I was actually thinking of doing a simple bodyweight program.
My short term goals are just to improve posture, gain some strength, and put on a few pounds of muscle. I'm sure at some later point I may consider doing things more aggressively with a better setup, but right now I'm content to just be able to improve my posture/strength imbalances and have my upper body filled in some.

Based on your specific information a "tried-and-true" program might not actually be best for you. A lack of strength in your lower back muscles, glutes, and hamstrings can very well be an issue and you need somebody to help you with something more specifics. This is definitely not something squats and DL's is going to fix and most "T&T" programs only include those two for lower body. If you have access to a gym and there is a trainer that is NASM - CES or PES certified you may want to pay for a few sessions with them.

heybales

To the advice above of designing your own program, based on what you have to use, might have a look at this.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Instructions.html

Probably Full Body option - then Legs, Push, Pull or Pull, Push, but legs first it sounds like.

Under each muscle group, should be able to find some lift technique using what you've got.

MrGonzo05

42

ForecasterJason

I found a weight resistance chart that I believe corresponds to the machine I'm using. At 20 pounds of weight, the actual weight resistance on that part of the pulley system is supposedly 42 pounds. At 50 pounds, the weight resistance is 78 pounds. That would mean my hamstring to quad ratio is more like 50-55% instead of the 40% I thought. Still, I think I should continue to train my hamstrings directly before adding in more quad work.

Cherimoose

ForecasterJason wrote: »

my lifestyle has been quite sedentary for a few years. My guess is this has greatly contributed to my weak glutes/hamstrings.

If you're following a normal, full-body program, without modifying it, your hams/glutes will get strong. I haven't seen any evidence that your hams/glutes need extra work. Your quads might be strong due to cycling, but that doesn't mean your hams/glutes need to catch up. And neither does anterior pelvic tilt, as was explained earlier.

Sam_I_Am77

Cherimoose wrote: »

I haven't seen any evidence that your hams/glutes need extra work.

There is an incredible amount of evidence, I don't know why people on MFP keeping saying that. Hamstring activity is present, albeit low in the squat; other exercises are better at improving hamstring strength. This isn't APA Format, feeling lazy here.

William P. Ebben. Hamstring Activation During Lower Body Resistance Training Exercises. International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance, 2009, 4, 84-96 © 2009 Human Kinetics, Inc.

McKenzie L. Fauth1, Luke R. Garceau1, Brittney Lutsch1, Aaron Gray1, Chris Szalkowski1,Brad Wurm1, and William P. Ebben. HAMSTRINGS, QUADRICEPS, AND GLUTEAL MUSCLE ACTIVATION DURING RESISTANCE TRAINING EXERCISES. Source: International Symposium on Biomechanics in Sports: Conference Proceedings Archive Date: January 1, 201

Clark, Dave R.1,3; Lambert, Mike I.2; Hunter, Angus M. Muscle Activation in the Loaded Free Barbell Squat: A Brief Review. Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research:April 2012 - Volume 26 - Issue 4 - p 1169–1178

Kevin McCurdy, Erin O’Kelley, Matt Kutz, George Langford, James Ernest, and Marcos Torres. Comparison of Lower Extremity EMG Between the 2-Leg Squat and Modified Single-Leg Squat in Female Athletes. Journal of Sport Rehabilitation, 2010, 19, 57-70 © 2010 Human Kinetics, Inc.

Joshua Gorsuch, Janey Long, Katie Miller, Kyle Primeau, Sarah Rutledge, Andrew Sossong, and John J. Durocher. THE EFFECT OF SQUAT DEPTH ON MUSCLE ACTIVATION IN MALE AND FEMALE CROSS-COUNTRY RUNNERS. Department of Physical Therapy, St. Francis University, Loretto, PA, USA

but that doesn't mean your hams/glutes need to catch up. And neither does anterior pelvic tilt, as was explained earlier.

It doesn't mean they don't need to catch-up either. Strength can be part of the issue. This poster really needs to see a professional on the subject-matter.

Cherimoose

I don't know what that list of references has to do with my post.

I agree that the OP should get a proper assessment by a good personal trainer or a PT, since self-diagnosing doesn't work well without kinesiology knowledge.

ninerbuff

Imbalance is common among a lot of daily gym goers. The "rears" are neglected alot because they aren't seen often. So hamstrings, calves, rear delts, low back are usually areas that get the most neglect.
What most people don't realize is that imbalance may be the reason injuries occurs. For example one might have great quads and mediocre hamstrings. Pulled hamstrings are common in this case.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Sam_I_Am77

Cherimoose wrote: »

I agree that the OP should get a proper assessment by a good personal trainer or a PT, since self-diagnosing doesn't work well without kinesiology knowledge.

You said...

I haven't seen any evidence that your hams/glutes need extra work

. The references are the evidence that basically says although the hamstrings are involved in the squat, the activation is low and additional hamstring specific work is warranted. Not a lot but some.

What most people don't realize is that imbalance may be the reason injuries occurs. For example one might have great quads and mediocre hamstrings. Pulled hamstrings are common in this case.

Yes! Pulled hamstrings would be one of the better injuries one could hope for with poor hamstring strength. ACL injury is a major injury that can result from a lack of glute and / hamstring strength.

dbmata

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

ACL injury is a major injury that can result from a lack of glute and / hamstring strength.

That was what I was going to mention, along with potential damage to the mcl and lcl.

Cherimoose

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

You said...

I haven't seen any evidence that your hams/glutes need extra work

. The references are the evidence that basically says although the hamstrings are involved in the squat, the activation is low and additional hamstring specific work is warranted.

I didn't mention squats, i recommended a full body program.. which normally includes exercises like deadlifts & lunges.

If you're following a normal, full-body program, without modifying it, your hams/glutes will get strong.

Sam_I_Am77

Cherimoose wrote: »

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

You said...

I haven't seen any evidence that your hams/glutes need extra work

. The references are the evidence that basically says although the hamstrings are involved in the squat, the activation is low and additional hamstring specific work is warranted.

I didn't mention squats, i recommended a full body program.. which normally includes exercises like deadlifts & lunges.

If you're following a normal, full-body program, without modifying it, your hams/glutes will get strong.

Perhaps I shouldn't have assumed squats but when full-body is being discussed that's the usual prescription.

journalistjen

Oh Geez! Thank you all for the great info. I thought I was of the few screwed up people. I have had issues with the knees for a while. I thought maybe it was just from being overweight for so long, weak muscles in and surrounding the knees, or playing catcher when I was young. Whenever I completely bend my knees, it's like I can hear cartilage--especially in my left knee. I've always had one hip/leg more flexible than the other. I have extremely high arches--so my pronation has always been weird.

I've had issues going low enough on squats. I had done a lot of reading. Some say that everyone's frame can't move the same way--some folks have to have a wider stance. Others say just go low, and eventually the muscles in and surrounding the knees will strengthen.

Maybe--it's a little bit of everything with me--too much tightness, imbalance, weak core, etc.