Fat Cell Death: Broscience or Science?
Iwishyouwell
Posts: 1,888 Member
The common line of thought is that fat cells shrink, but are never truly eliminated.
However I've read within fitness and weight lifting circles that getting your body fat percentage down to very lean proportions, as in 10% or less for men, and staying there for a couple years actually eventually leads to adipose cell death, and that the major roadblock for the once fat and obese is that very few of us actually achieve very low body fat percentages, and if we do, we rarely maintain it long term. Some have suggested studies exist to back up this notion.
Science or broscience?
However I've read within fitness and weight lifting circles that getting your body fat percentage down to very lean proportions, as in 10% or less for men, and staying there for a couple years actually eventually leads to adipose cell death, and that the major roadblock for the once fat and obese is that very few of us actually achieve very low body fat percentages, and if we do, we rarely maintain it long term. Some have suggested studies exist to back up this notion.
Science or broscience?
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i think basically any cell in your body can die, so logically even fat cells can die. they might be hard to kill off, and it might not be the mechanism that weight lifting circles insist is the cause, but yeah, you hit a fat cell with a direct beam of radiation and that will die (among other ways)0
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broscience. fat cells stay, they just shrink. The anorexic who undergo treatment after years of cyclically being underweight at very low body fat regain body fat. Those cells that shrunk refill with adipose tissue once adequate nutrition is provided.0
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Broscience. Like others cells in the body, reproduction/replication is what the body is efficient at.Iwishyouwell wrote: »The common line of thought is that fat cells shrink, but are never truly eliminated.
However I've read within fitness and weight lifting circles that getting your body fat percentage down to very lean proportions, as in 10% or less for men, and staying there for a couple years actually eventually leads to adipose cell death, and that the major roadblock for the once fat and obese is that very few of us actually achieve very low body fat percentages, and if we do, we rarely maintain it long term. Some have suggested studies exist to back up this notion.
Science or broscience?
If someone is staying at 10% body fat, it's ONLY because they aren't surplusing their calorie needs.
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probably the strangest thing i've read about (fat cells wise) is that if you get liposuction and they lipo out the fat cells in some area, when you eat the same amount of fat (or any energy you end up storing) as before rather than it spreading more evenly i your body, you end up getting all the fat in certain areas.
that's what happens when you lose fat cells. the ones you still have just get fatter than they would have when you had a higher number of cells.0 -
Not the same as "dying". Removal of cells by surgery is just that. Also, exceeding body fat consistently encourages the body to generate new fat cells.miketoryan wrote: »probably the strangest thing i've read about (fat cells wise) is that if you get liposuction and they lipo out the fat cells in some area, when you eat the same amount of fat (or any energy you end up storing) as before rather than it spreading more evenly i your body, you end up getting all the fat in certain areas.
that's what happens when you lose fat cells. the ones you still have just get fatter than they would have when you had a higher number of cells.
http://news.sciencemag.org/2008/05/and-fat-goes
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Also, the body's fat cells have an unlimited capacity for storing fat - especially the cells of the abdomen, as we've seen in recent years.0
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Just what I thought.
But appreciate the responses.0 -
Speaking from an evolutionary standpoint, I can't see that that would be compatible with life.
I mean, if our cavemen ancestors didn't eat for days and days, they'd be pretty lean. But the minute food came long, they'd gorge to fill up those fat cells for future days of scarcity.
Those fat cells are like a bank account. It may be empty for a long time, but it's still there.0 -
Correct. Unfortunately unlike a bank account, fat cells don't like to give up what they've accumulated. Trying to empty them out takes way more effort than filling them up. I wish same were true with bank accounts.Speaking from an evolutionary standpoint, I can't see that that would be compatible with life.
I mean, if our cavemen ancestors didn't eat for days and days, they'd be pretty lean. But the minute food came long, they'd gorge to fill up those fat cells for future days of scarcity.
Those fat cells are like a bank account. It may be empty for a long time, but it's still there.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Speaking from an evolutionary standpoint, I can't see that that would be compatible with life.
I mean, if our cavemen ancestors didn't eat for days and days, they'd be pretty lean. But the minute food came long, they'd gorge to fill up those fat cells for future days of scarcity.
Those fat cells are like a bank account. It may be empty for a long time, but it's still there.
That's because I wasn't clear in my OP.
The debate isn't about the fat cells you'd normally have if you'd never become obese.
It's about the additional fat cells created to accommodate expanding obesity. Those are the ones opined that could be experience cellular death, in the event that the body recognized that they were utterly redundant in the face of long term leanness. A sort of clean slate, if I'd never been fat deal. At least that's the view I've seen discussed and debated.
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There is evidence they die and are replaced.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/05/health/research/05fat.html
Every year, whether you are fat or thin, whether you lose weight or gain, 10 percent of your fat cells die. And every year, those cells that die are replaced with new fat cells, researchers in Sweden reported Sunday.
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I remember seeing information that over a long period of time (we're talking a decade or more here), you would gradually see a decrease in fat cells that are no longer needed due to natural cell death and turnover within the body. However, the studies I just found through a quick Google search seems to indicate the opposite; they are replaced at the same rate they die and the amount does not change.
I'll see if I can track down that old information.0 -
Ask the Swedes who spent the time and money researching it.herrspoons wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »There is evidence they die and are replaced.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/05/health/research/05fat.html
Every year, whether you are fat or thin, whether you lose weight or gain, 10 percent of your fat cells die. And every year, those cells that die are replaced with new fat cells, researchers in Sweden reported Sunday.
Every cell dies and is replaced. Why would fat cells be different?
Not every cell type dies and is replaced. Females are born with the only egg cells they'll ever have. I think nerve cells don't get replaced.
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they just go home
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If you believe that the more overweight you've been, the more fat cells your body has created and the more your body will try to replenish those now smaller cells, it matters a lot. But I feel like a body is going to store it in a new cell or an old one, and to me it's all the same-- more fat. I'm more concerned with avoiding visceral fat than how many cells it's in.0
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Not really. I guess Iwishyouwell and you and others seem to suggest fat cell death would be a good thing, which made me wonder if it'd even matter. Maybe your number of cells does affect your propensity to regain, I don't know. It seems like we have a propensity to gain and especially regain no matter what.
Was that directed at anyone in specific?WalkingAlong wrote: »If you believe that the more overweight you've been, the more fat cells your body has created and the more your body will try to replenish those now smaller cells, it matters a lot. But I feel like a body is going to store it in a new cell or an old one, and to me it's all the same-- more fat. I'm more concerned with avoiding visceral fat than how many cells it's in.
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WalkingAlong wrote: »
Not really. I guess Iwishyouwell and you and others seem to suggest fat cell death would be a good thing, which made me wonder if it'd even matter. Maybe your number of cells does affect your propensity to regain, I don't know. It seems like we have a propensity to gain and especially regain no matter what.
Was that directed at anyone in specific?WalkingAlong wrote: »If you believe that the more overweight you've been, the more fat cells your body has created and the more your body will try to replenish those now smaller cells, it matters a lot. But I feel like a body is going to store it in a new cell or an old one, and to me it's all the same-- more fat. I'm more concerned with avoiding visceral fat than how many cells it's in.
I suppose if theories about leptin resistance in obese persons has merit, the amount of fat cells would prove vitally important to the chances of successful long term weight loss maintenance.0 -
del
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I misinterpreted your use of "sorry, they don't die" and "unfortunately", and your reason for interest. Why are you interested if they do or don't die, if them dying isn't a good thing?
I'm not sure what this new approach people seem to be taking by saying someone said something they never said. I never said fat cell death would be a good thing.WalkingAlong wrote: »
Not really. I guess Iwishyouwell and you and others seem to suggest fat cell death would be a good thing, which made me wonder if it'd even matter. Maybe your number of cells does affect your propensity to regain, I don't know. It seems like we have a propensity to gain and especially regain no matter what.
Was that directed at anyone in specific?WalkingAlong wrote: »If you believe that the more overweight you've been, the more fat cells your body has created and the more your body will try to replenish those now smaller cells, it matters a lot. But I feel like a body is going to store it in a new cell or an old one, and to me it's all the same-- more fat. I'm more concerned with avoiding visceral fat than how many cells it's in.
I've made 4 posts in this thread and reading them over there is absolutely no way you could think I believe that.
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herrspoons wrote: »Iwishyouwell wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »
Not really. I guess Iwishyouwell and you and others seem to suggest fat cell death would be a good thing, which made me wonder if it'd even matter. Maybe your number of cells does affect your propensity to regain, I don't know. It seems like we have a propensity to gain and especially regain no matter what.
Was that directed at anyone in specific?WalkingAlong wrote: »If you believe that the more overweight you've been, the more fat cells your body has created and the more your body will try to replenish those now smaller cells, it matters a lot. But I feel like a body is going to store it in a new cell or an old one, and to me it's all the same-- more fat. I'm more concerned with avoiding visceral fat than how many cells it's in.
I suppose if theories about leptin resistance in obese persons has merit, the amount of fat cells would prove vitally important to the chances of successful long term weight loss maintenance.
*sigh*
So it'll be liposuction on the NHS as well as gastric bands. Great.
Of course, it's not as simple as that, and I doubt leptin levels will be significantly different enough to cause a difference in losing fat and maintaining weight. But, hey: it's another excuse for the terminally weak of will I suppose.
Wait, does the NHS currently cover gastric bands?
The work being done surrounding leptin, ghrelin, and associated hunger and satiety related hormones is all pointing toward pharmaceuticals that can be marketed toward the overweight and obese.
And sadly I do think the only chance at a significant reduction in obesity lies with a pill. Because expecting lasting behavioral changes for the majority seems to be a continual lost cause. I'm not pessimistic on most things, but with this I am. *sigh*
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I guess fat cells are the only cells in our body that are invincible, huh?
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But only if more fat cells means more leptin resistance, right? It may well, I'm just thinking aloud. But if the role of leptin is for the fat cells to signal the brain, "Stop eating, we're full!", do more cells speak more loudly than fewer, fuller cells?Iwishyouwell wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »
Not really. I guess Iwishyouwell and you and others seem to suggest fat cell death would be a good thing, which made me wonder if it'd even matter. Maybe your number of cells does affect your propensity to regain, I don't know. It seems like we have a propensity to gain and especially regain no matter what.
Was that directed at anyone in specific?WalkingAlong wrote: »If you believe that the more overweight you've been, the more fat cells your body has created and the more your body will try to replenish those now smaller cells, it matters a lot. But I feel like a body is going to store it in a new cell or an old one, and to me it's all the same-- more fat. I'm more concerned with avoiding visceral fat than how many cells it's in.
I suppose if theories about leptin resistance in obese persons has merit, the amount of fat cells would prove vitally important to the chances of successful long term weight loss maintenance.
I guess it makes sense that more cells probably means more leptin and more resistance to it. But more leptin would also mean more signal to the brain, which might be a desirable outcome for those who have trouble feeling full?
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Iwishyouwell wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Iwishyouwell wrote: »WalkingAlong wrote: »
Not really. I guess Iwishyouwell and you and others seem to suggest fat cell death would be a good thing, which made me wonder if it'd even matter. Maybe your number of cells does affect your propensity to regain, I don't know. It seems like we have a propensity to gain and especially regain no matter what.
Was that directed at anyone in specific?WalkingAlong wrote: »If you believe that the more overweight you've been, the more fat cells your body has created and the more your body will try to replenish those now smaller cells, it matters a lot. But I feel like a body is going to store it in a new cell or an old one, and to me it's all the same-- more fat. I'm more concerned with avoiding visceral fat than how many cells it's in.
I suppose if theories about leptin resistance in obese persons has merit, the amount of fat cells would prove vitally important to the chances of successful long term weight loss maintenance.
*sigh*
So it'll be liposuction on the NHS as well as gastric bands. Great.
Of course, it's not as simple as that, and I doubt leptin levels will be significantly different enough to cause a difference in losing fat and maintaining weight. But, hey: it's another excuse for the terminally weak of will I suppose.
Wait, does the NHS currently cover gastric bands?
The work being done surrounding leptin, ghrelin, and associated hunger and satiety related hormones is all pointing toward pharmaceuticals that can be marketed toward the overweight and obese.
And sadly I do think the only chance at a significant reduction in obesity lies with a pill. Because expecting lasting behavioral changes for the majority seems to be a continual lost cause. I'm not pessimistic on most things, but with this I am. *sigh*
Hey, speaking of fat loss pills, don't forget the Harvard group working to convert white fat to brown fat.
We're going to ignore the fact that if you take the two compounds they've found to be successful for an extended period of time you're likely to become immune compromised.
I can't see any way that this could go horribly wrong.0
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