Good Strength Training for Abs (without crunches) ?
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mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Anecdata, but I have a grumpy lower back and crunches exacerbate it. And they are hard on my neck as well and just very uncomfortable (not in a good way).
Yeah Im not saying to do them or not do them. I was just curious about the very strong stance against them.
Sit-ups work hip flexors is a common reason they suck for abs. But then L sits and hanging leg raises get recommended. Im pretty sure those are hip flexor dominant also. JoRocka pointed out they are better because they dont have an added risk that a sit-up might have. That makes sense to me but then the reason wasnt because it was a hip flexor but because it had an injury risk from loaded spinal flexion.
I like knowing what a muscles function is and then trying to work it in that path through its range of motion. Isometric is great but is there a benefit to resistance in the fully contracted position also? I dont know, thats why I was asking.
You are correct on the hip flexors with hanging leg raises and L-sits- it's one reason I have bad L sits.... BUT. That being said- I find I'm still using significantly more ab in BOTH those exercises along with the hip flexors- vs a sit up where I can hip flexor my way through practically the whole thing- and the reduced back risk.
Trade offs are made everywhere.0 -
mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »Anecdata, but I have a grumpy lower back and crunches exacerbate it. And they are hard on my neck as well and just very uncomfortable (not in a good way).
Yeah Im not saying to do them or not do them. I was just curious about the very strong stance against them.
Sit-ups work hip flexors is a common reason they suck for abs. But then L sits and hanging leg raises get recommended. Im pretty sure those are hip flexor dominant also. JoRocka pointed out they are better because they dont have an added risk that a sit-up might have. That makes sense to me but then the reason wasnt because it was a hip flexor but because it had an injury risk from loaded spinal flexion.
I like knowing what a muscles function is and then trying to work it in that path through its range of motion. Isometric is great but is there a benefit to resistance in the fully contracted position also? I dont know, thats why I was asking.
You are correct on the hip flexors with hanging leg raises and L-sits- it's one reason I have bad L sits.... BUT. That being said- I find I'm still using significantly more ab in BOTH those exercises along with the hip flexors- vs a sit up where I can hip flexor my way through practically the whole thing- and the reduced back risk.
Trade offs are made everywhere.
That makes sense. From the added leverage of long legs the resistance should be greater than using the upper body from the other end. Even if the motion is similar.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
The OP asked for ab work and you prescribed squats and deadlifts. No?No one here said they were.
You seem to have a hangup about squats and deadlifts, since you're not criticizing anyone else for their suggestions of any of the other activities. Cherimoose said they were central to strength programs -- which they are -- not that they are the be-all, end-all of core work, nor that they are the only things out there for that task. Just like no one else is implying that the one or two things they suggested are the be-all, end-all of core training.
For the OP -- don't forget that the abs you can see with sufficiently low body fat aren't the only part of the core. So don't forget exercises that work the rest of the muscles in the core area.
Check out wood choppers and heel touches.0 -
mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »The best thing you can do for your core is compound lifting movements. Beyond that I do plank variations, cable chops (I prefer kneeling), swiss ball jacknives, and hanging leg raises.
Sit-ups and crunches are just about the worst thing you could do and the only reason to do them really is if you have to PT qual for armed forces/law enforcement/emergency responder, etc.
I do a lot of Oly stuff so my core is pretty engaged throughout my primary workout...so I focus on that first and foremost. If I have time and I'm not completely shot to *kitten*, I throw in some extra core work. I also do plank variations pretty much daily...usually how I start my day off.
I hear this a lot. What is the reason that crunches and sit ups get such a bad reputation?
If I do a full crunch, I feel it in my C7 area pretty bad...it seems there are two camps, ones who think that all of the spinal flexion is bad and the other which doesn't so much think so. I fall into the first category I guess, mostly from personal experience.
When I was in the military we just did gazillions of sit-ups and crunches and by experience I can say that all of the other core stuff I do now seems to be far more beneficial and I don't have any pain.
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
The OP asked for ab work and you prescribed squats and deadlifts. No?No one here said they were.
You seem to have a hangup about squats and deadlifts, since you're not criticizing anyone else for their suggestions of any of the other activities. Cherimoose said they were central to strength programs -- which they are -- not that they are the be-all, end-all of core work, nor that they are the only things out there for that task. Just like no one else is implying that the one or two things they suggested are the be-all, end-all of core training.
For the OP -- don't forget that the abs you can see with sufficiently low body fat aren't the only part of the core. So don't forget exercises that work the rest of the muscles in the core area.
Check out wood choppers and heel touches.
he doesn't have a hang up about it- he just thinks that squats and dead lifts are not the only answer for ab exercises.
For many people- developing their compound base lifts will get them a lot further than 100 sit ups.
BUT- that doesn't mean we can just blow off ab exercises. I'm a firm believer in compounds- but I still (under great protest) do ab work. Much like under great duress I do cardio.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
The OP asked for ab work and you prescribed squats and deadlifts. No?No one here said they were.
You seem to have a hangup about squats and deadlifts, since you're not criticizing anyone else for their suggestions of any of the other activities. Cherimoose said they were central to strength programs -- which they are -- not that they are the be-all, end-all of core work, nor that they are the only things out there for that task. Just like no one else is implying that the one or two things they suggested are the be-all, end-all of core training.
For the OP -- don't forget that the abs you can see with sufficiently low body fat aren't the only part of the core. So don't forget exercises that work the rest of the muscles in the core area.
Check out wood choppers and heel touches.
I have a 400lb squat and I think they are the single best exercise that can be done for functional strength and athletic performance. Squats are essential to a maximal strength plans but there are many forms of strength training and the squat and deadlift are not essential to all. To be honest, that's not even true of maximal strength programs because it depends on what your goals are. However, with that being said they are not appropriate for everybody to start training with on Day 1, although obviously many people can. The majority of people can be progressed into the squat eventually with an improvement in their mobility, strength of core musculature, and strengthening of antagonist muscles. Additionally and although they do require recruitment of Core musculature, some (not a ton) additional core work is required to further improve core strength. Core strength is very important in walking and just being able to move throughout one's everyday activities and squatting does not fix all of it. My thoughts on core training have nothing to do with 6-pack abs either; it's basically for the purpose of not hurting one's self in the gym, on the field, or just bending over to pick-up your kids.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
The OP asked for ab work and you prescribed squats and deadlifts. No?No one here said they were.
You seem to have a hangup about squats and deadlifts, since you're not criticizing anyone else for their suggestions of any of the other activities. Cherimoose said they were central to strength programs -- which they are -- not that they are the be-all, end-all of core work, nor that they are the only things out there for that task. Just like no one else is implying that the one or two things they suggested are the be-all, end-all of core training.
For the OP -- don't forget that the abs you can see with sufficiently low body fat aren't the only part of the core. So don't forget exercises that work the rest of the muscles in the core area.
Check out wood choppers and heel touches.
Ya this is why I recommend the Awkward Airplane (apologies for not putting this in the original reply) - when I do it I feel that "girdle" tightening all the way around my core - front, sides and back. I haven't found a move that feels anything like it.
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cwolfman13 wrote: »mustgetmuscles1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »The best thing you can do for your core is compound lifting movements. Beyond that I do plank variations, cable chops (I prefer kneeling), swiss ball jacknives, and hanging leg raises.
Sit-ups and crunches are just about the worst thing you could do and the only reason to do them really is if you have to PT qual for armed forces/law enforcement/emergency responder, etc.
I do a lot of Oly stuff so my core is pretty engaged throughout my primary workout...so I focus on that first and foremost. If I have time and I'm not completely shot to *kitten*, I throw in some extra core work. I also do plank variations pretty much daily...usually how I start my day off.
I hear this a lot. What is the reason that crunches and sit ups get such a bad reputation?
If I do a full crunch, I feel it in my C7 area pretty bad...it seems there are two camps, ones who think that all of the spinal flexion is bad and the other which doesn't so much think so. I fall into the first category I guess, mostly from personal experience.
When I was in the military we just did gazillions of sit-ups and crunches and by experience I can say that all of the other core stuff I do now seems to be far more beneficial and I don't have any pain.
That makes sense. Sit-ups and crunches are some of those exercises that people seem to take to an extreme number of reps.
I think it would be different if people were doing 3 sets of 10 reps and progressively loading a few times per week than someone doing 50-100+ in one set over and over everyday. I would think any exercise would eventually wear you down doing that though.
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I do roll-outs and get sore almost every time. I dont feel any strain in my neck but it does require strong upper body. Also I use the good old stability/fitness ball alot, and use it with a 10 pound weight behind my head. Planks, yes! Reverse crunch with power (shooting the legs up to the sky then bringing them parallel to the floor (like in 6 inches)0
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do leg raises or L sits- way safer- and promote more growth in other places as well.
and isn't a hip flexor a tendon?
Sure, or mountain climbers, cable from kicks or whatnot. I'm not saying that sit-ups are a marvellous exercise, I'm just saying that it isn't bad because it mostly stresses the hip flexors.
"Hip flexor" is usually used as a collective term for describing the muscles connecting the pelvis/spine to the thighs. Just like the term "rotator cuff" describes the myriad of small muscles and tendons in your shoulder.0 -
I do believe I intend to catch you soon.Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »I have a 400lb squat and I think they are the single best exercise that can be done for functional strength and athletic performance.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Ugh... people should do a little more than DL's and Squat's. Prescribing those 2 exercises on this site is like doctors prescribing anti-biotics. You have a runny nose, take this Zpac. You want to improve core strength, overall strength, have a nice *kitten*, and solve world hunger, squat and deadlift.
Hi. you must be new here.
There are only about 10 people on this site who actually know anything. The rest of us just regurgitate what we've heard in hopes that the cool people will accept us into their circle of friends.
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I do believe I intend to catch you soon.Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »I have a 400lb squat and I think they are the single best exercise that can be done for functional strength and athletic performance.
I'm sure you will, you work hard enough.
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Well you skipped the "people pulling on their spines" bit. that's usually where I see the most damage- but there is quite a lot of research that shows the low back risk as well.
http://www.peaksportsandspinept.com/articles/whysitupsareabadidea.cfm
Funny how he says the situp movement "is something we just don't do" in daily life, and then proceeds to recommend that we get face-down with a giant inflatable ball between our legs and roll from side to side. For the life of me i can't recall ever doing this in daily life.
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Cherimoose wrote: »Well you skipped the "people pulling on their spines" bit. that's usually where I see the most damage- but there is quite a lot of research that shows the low back risk as well.
http://www.peaksportsandspinept.com/articles/whysitupsareabadidea.cfm
Funny how he says the situp movement "is something we just don't do" in daily life, and then proceeds to recommend that we get face-down with a giant inflatable ball between our legs and roll from side to side. For the life of me i can't recall ever doing this in daily life.
No, but you do turn and twist your body. The purpose of those exercise is to perform some kind of anti-rotational exercise on an unstable surface. An exercise like that would engage all core musculature in a means that would minimize risk to the lumbar spine. The information presented in that link is similar to information communicated from Dr. McGill.
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^^^ and those muscles along the back that are involved in twisting- are typically the ones that get pulled- from some thing as simple as bending down to pick up suitcase/briefcase.do leg raises or L sits- way safer- and promote more growth in other places as well.
and isn't a hip flexor a tendon?
Sure, or mountain climbers, cable from kicks or whatnot. I'm not saying that sit-ups are a marvellous exercise, I'm just saying that it isn't bad because it mostly stresses the hip flexors.
"Hip flexor" is usually used as a collective term for describing the muscles connecting the pelvis/spine to the thighs. Just like the term "rotator cuff" describes the myriad of small muscles and tendons in your shoulder.
But it can be- I know most people have overly tight hip flexors based on the fact they are sitting so much- so doing a sit up where you're essentially already semi contracted- and only contracting it more- coupled with the other issues.
It's just not a good combination.
And you're right mountain climbers also- which is one reason I don't do them.
And when I say hip flexor- no- I mean the actual hip flexor. not the general front region of my hips.0 -
Deadlifts and squats (especially deadlifts). I never do crunches or sit-ups, and my core has never been in better shape,0
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Mostly to put a time limit on it, I finish my workout (running, Nautilus set) daily with Planks. I do 30 seconds of plank and 30 seconds rest alternating side, front, side and a crunch set. It takes 16 minutes and seems to do what I need. All the other Ab workouts just kept adding time as they got harder so I made up my own.0
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Ugh... people should do a little more than DL's and Squat's. Prescribing those 2 exercises on this site is like doctors prescribing anti-biotics.
that's not really fair.
I never even heard of deadlifting til I had been active on this site's forums for about 2 months.
I'll continue to mention the basics so new people that still think that crunches and curls are basics can be saved from a lot of wasted effort
What's wrong with doing crunches and curls?
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Planks. Mountain Climbers. Burpees. Yoga. A lot of the flow, if performed correctly requires a bit of core strength to hold the poses, and it's big on not putting a ton of strain on the neck in the basic form. Squats and Deadlifts are good as well if that's your jam.0
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http://neilarey.com/muscle-map.html
It's a bunch of bodyweight exercises for your core and other body parts.0 -
goddessofawesome wrote: »
I would agree to a point. But there are SO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO- that are less difficult to mess up and are more effective.
The trade off for risk/reward just isn't there.
Squats have high reward- so the 'risk' is worth it.
Crunches- seriously? it's just NOT worth it considering there are so many other more effective exercises to add to the tool box.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Ugh... people should do a little more than DL's and Squat's. Prescribing those 2 exercises on this site is like doctors prescribing anti-biotics. You have a runny nose, take this Zpac. You want to improve core strength, overall strength, have a nice *kitten*, and solve world hunger, squat and deadlift. While those two lifts do actively engage your core muscles; they are not the end-all-be-all to core training. For an overall stability and healthy (injury prevention) stand-point, you should do some separate core training.
Great post - I agree 100%. Like you I am not knocking the benefits of Deadlifts and Squats (as I do both weekly) but I believe that if you truly want to build and/or strengthen a muscle you need to isolate it. Another thing people forget (or may not know?) is the other isolated function of the Rectus Abdominis is Spinal Flexion. While isometric Ab work is great (e.g. Deadlift & Squats) I believe the other function of the Rectus Abdominis need to be strengthened via Weighted Crunches, Leg Raises, etc., etc.0 -
double post...
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
I do believe I intend to catch you soon.Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »I have a 400lb squat and I think they are the single best exercise that can be done for functional strength and athletic performance.
I'm sure you will, you work hard enough.
I did some dl stance box squats today, did two singles and a triple at 405. That weight REALLY sucks to have on your back. lol.0 -
Cherimoose wrote: »Well you skipped the "people pulling on their spines" bit. that's usually where I see the most damage- but there is quite a lot of research that shows the low back risk as well.
http://www.peaksportsandspinept.com/articles/whysitupsareabadidea.cfm
Funny how he says the situp movement "is something we just don't do" in daily life, and then proceeds to recommend that we get face-down with a giant inflatable ball between our legs and roll from side to side. For the life of me i can't recall ever doing this in daily life.
This isn't daily life granted, but I do plenty of situp like movements when rock and alpine climbing.0 -
goddessofawesome wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Ugh... people should do a little more than DL's and Squat's. Prescribing those 2 exercises on this site is like doctors prescribing anti-biotics.
that's not really fair.
I never even heard of deadlifting til I had been active on this site's forums for about 2 months.
I'll continue to mention the basics so new people that still think that crunches and curls are basics can be saved from a lot of wasted effort
What's wrong with doing crunches and curls?
nothing. I didn't say there was anything at all wrong with them on the entire planet on which humanity exists - as well as the space stations, current orbiting astronauts and anyone who snuck on Mars - there is nothing wrong.
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goddessofawesome wrote: »
I would agree to a point. But there are SO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO- that are less difficult to mess up and are more effective.
The trade off for risk/reward just isn't there.
Squats have high reward- so the 'risk' is worth it.
Crunches- seriously? it's just NOT worth it considering there are so many other more effective exercises to add to the tool box.
I think of crunches as the bodyweight equivalent of doing 10 pounds on the lat pull machine....
500 times*.
*due to my personal current abilities.
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Don't look silly at those 500 rep bonuses.
My trainer's doing this for fun as a competition between him and his brother, 500 reps of something, every day, AFTER the main workout is complete.
I'm going to try that later in the year, when I switch to hypertrophy focused eventually.0
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