Eating fats within 3 hours either side of a workout.
leanmuscleway
Posts: 72 Member
Hello. Does anyone know if this is a myth or if it is something i should try and stick to? I was told it slows down getting any nutrients into your blood so not a good idea too close to a workout - before or after?
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Replies
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PWO feeding should be rich inprotein and carb, this meal should be fat free. The consumption of essential fats is one of the most overlooked areas of daily nutritional intake but during the post workout period, eating fat can actually decrease the effectiveness of your PWO beverage. Since fat slows down transit through the stomach, eating fat during the post workout period may slow the digestion and absorption of carbs and proteins.
But let's be honest, before whey people would sit down and eat eggs and nail milk. There isn't going to be a massive hinderance to your gains or muscle repair.0 -
never heard anything like it
the closest I've heard is eating protein within 30 mins of strength training helps with muscle repair, supposedly0 -
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Thanks for the reply's. I cant find the articles now but i remember reading an article of Ben Palkuski a while ago on it.0
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It's the forest and trees.......it doesn't matter at the end of the day, everything gets assimilated. True that fat slows absorption, but it does not stops absorption.0
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neanderthin wrote: »It's the forest and trees.......it doesn't matter at the end of the day, everything gets assimilated. True that fat slows absorption, but it does not stops absorption.
I was going to say the same thing. Fat slows absorption, but I don't think it's gonna be a deal breaker.
Honestly, some days I have a carb/protein shake within an hour of lifting, some days I fast and just take BCAAs until 6 hours later when I finally eat, and some days I just have coffee and heavy cream (all fat) directly after lifting.0 -
The 30 minute anabolic window is way overblown. If the protein is not in your amino acid pool within this window you've missed it and that means make sure you have enough protein beforehand. Carbs and protein are your friend but fat isn't bad either. Just eat normally and you'll be fine.0
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I wouldn't bother worrying about this at all.0
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Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.0 -
thanks very much for the replies
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Lowest on the totem pole in terms of importance ( I mean that in regards to nutrient timing and specifics ).0
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dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.0 -
dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.
I'm pretty sure he was being facetious.0 -
dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.
I'm pretty sure he was being facetious.
Lol. I shouldn't post till caffeine kicks in.0 -
dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.
I'm pretty sure he was being facetious.
Lol. I shouldn't post till caffeine kicks in.
No worries man, I'm already at 3 cups
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dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.
Reading comprehension and facetious meter?? The point I'm making is PWO nutrition is not as important as TOTAL feeding. Muscle doesn't just grow from PWO meal. Muscle growth is dependent on many factors OTHER than nutrient intake PWO. If caloric intake is sub-optimal, if protein intake is less than adequate, if rest is minimal etc, - muscle growth will be sub-optimal or non-existent. It doesn't matter how much BCAA's and carbs I consume intra-workout, or what my PWO meal consists of. You're just majoring in minors with your point. (Your intra-workout example is interesting in itself, because the very thought of high volume and long duration vs cortisol effects on muscle growth doesn't seem to be an issue for you - another majoring in the minors topic that is heavily debated) Bottom line is nutrient timing comes in dead last compared to overall factors. Muscle protein synthesis isn't limited to 30 minutes post-workout. Even if nutrient timing is spot on, how much MORE muscle do you think you will build? Do you honestly think it will be a significant amount more?0 -
How do you get that I'm disagreeing with you on having to have your bases covered for total daily nutrition, I never said anything remotely close to that. That's such an obvious prerequisite that I don't think it needs to be discussed in depth. I also never said that all protein synthesis occurs in the immediate post workout meal. But yes, I'd say nutrient timing is important for optimal results over the long term. If you're busting your *kitten* in the gym, why would you not dial in your diet for optimal results. I'm just stating what I and many others have found to be true in real life. To each his own I guess. Things you find to be true in your 30's may not be as applicable once you hit your 40's, then everything matters.0
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So this thread is about 40 year old you, and not the 24 year old that posted the question? Haha!
Seriously though, I think you are missing the point. What I'm saying is that the MAJORS need to be on point before even considering nutrient timing, which is a MINOR in the overall picture. For 1% of the population nutrient timing is important (ultra elite athletes). For 99% of us, sorry to say you and I are included (unless you are an ultra elite athlete, then congrats), any benefit we receive from nutrient timing will not be significant. If you and I time our meals and nutrients perfectly, over the long term (20 years?) it may result in 1-2lbs more of muscle, maybe. Now, if you argue that 1-2lbs more is significant, then that is your viewpoint and I respect it. But one can also successfully argue that with increased age brings other significant factors - lower test levels, reduced postprandial muscle protein synthetic response, increased stress etc- factors that nutrient timing may have little to no effect on.0 -
Lol, def not an elite athlete. But I still have to respectfully disagree. I think the results of nutrient timing are much greater than 1-2lbs over 20 years, I'd say more in line with per year. I think this is going to have to be one of those topics where there is disagreement and no way to reach a clear and definite conclusion. Too many variables for any study to accurately determine a result for all populations.0
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And we're in mutual agreement on having the major bases covered. I'm contending that once those are looked after, why not address the minors to reach optimal results? I'd rather base my efforts on the results of an elite athlete rather than a mediocre general population. And in referencing age, I meant that as you age smaller details take on greater effect. I think similar rules apply to younger lifters, but they can get away with ignoring the finer points because they have the benefit of youth on their side.0
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Yeah, but the authors were also asked, (specifically Alan Aragon) if that means that he will abandon the post workout shake as soon as practical after training and his response was that he would not.0
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Yeah, but the authors were also asked, (specifically Alan Aragon) if that means that he will abandon the post workout shake as soon as practical after training and his response was that he would not.
A lot of those shakes are also taken to replenish glycogen stores and you'll probably want something after a hard workout anyway so why not some protein? It's a win-win and we all do things for psychological reasons as well as practical reasons.
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Exactly. Muscle glycogen must be replenished and you must be in an energy surplus in order to build muscle. It makes sense to get these things accomplished as quickly as possible. Will it make a difference in a study that last maybe 6 months? Probably not because of statistical significance. Many studies cited used a 12 week cycle, which is pretty much statistically insignificant if using a framework of a year or two.
So for those of us who do this as a lifestyle, potentially adding a pound of extra muscle in a year or two is appealing. For those that do not care or feel that this is "insignificant", that is fine with me. Gaining muscle as an experienced lifter is tough, and I will take every advantage I can get. It costs me virtually nothing extra to intake a PWO shake. I have nothing to loose and potentially muscle to gain so why not?
But as has been stated, it is not of PRIMARY importance and if for some reason someone misses PWO nutrition, it isn't the end of the world. I am with feralX in that I am going to do everything possible to maximize all effects I can control.0 -
Yeah, well Ben is an enhanced bodybuilder and the information from most bodybuilders aren't well supported by science.leanmuscleway wrote: »Thanks for the reply's. I cant find the articles now but i remember reading an article of Ben Palkuski a while ago on it.
Let me see if I can dig up something from a peer reviewed clinical study on it.
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Exactly. Muscle glycogen must be replenished and you must be in an energy surplus in order to build muscle. It makes sense to get these things accomplished as quickly as possible. Will it make a difference in a study that last maybe 6 months? Probably not because of statistical significance. Many studies cited used a 12 week cycle, which is pretty much statistically insignificant if using a framework of a year or two.
So for those of us who do this as a lifestyle, potentially adding a pound of extra muscle in a year or two is appealing. For those that do not care or feel that this is "insignificant", that is fine with me. Gaining muscle as an experienced lifter is tough, and I will take every advantage I can get. It costs me virtually nothing extra to intake a PWO shake. I have nothing to loose and potentially muscle to gain so why not?
But as has been stated, it is not of PRIMARY importance and if for some reason someone misses PWO nutrition, it isn't the end of the world. I am with feralX in that I am going to do everything possible to maximize all effects I can control.
Why? Muscle glycogen is replenished over the course of feeding for normal individuals. You're using an argument that doesn't apply to you. Your "lifestlye" isn't that of an elite athlete, with multiple training bouts in a day. For those individuals, nutrient timing is of utmost importance. Your muscle glycogen isn't fully depleted in a training session, and a PWO shake for you honestly doesn't make even a statistical difference in muscle building. So many individuals talk of this "body-building lifestyle" like they are elite athletes. I'm not saying you don't train hard, but when your job and lifestlye depend on your athletic performance, nutrient timing becomes very important.
If a PWO shake gives you a mental advantage, then I'm all for it. But to argue that for the normal person nutrient timing will give a 1-2lbs of muscle growth over the year is a large stretch. You should be more worried about progressive overload, rest, form and range of motion for optimal muscle and strength growth. These are more in your control. Nutrient timing should be more of a concern for training performance for the majority of individuals. Do I have enough energy to get through my workout? Do I feel sluggish when eating a meal prior? Can I even eat after I train? These are better, real world questions. You aren't sabotaging your workout if your PWO meal consists of fat, or if you wait an hour or two after training to eat. I'm not saying to throw nutrition out of the window. Would I go 10 hours without eating after I train? No. But this emphasis on PWO nutrient timing isn't as important to the average person as you are making it out to be.0 -
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“Your muscle glycogen isn't fully depleted in a training session”???
From the review paper Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?
sited above, “Similarly, Robergs et al. [8] reported that 3 sets of 12 RM performed to muscular failure resulted in a 26.1% reduction of glycogen stores in the vastus lateralis while six sets at this intensity led to a 38% decrease, primarily resulting from glycogen depletion in type II fibers compared to type I fibers. It therefore stands to reason that typical high volume bodybuilding-style workouts involving multiple exercises and sets for the same muscle group would deplete the majority of local glycogen stores.”
And
"...there is evidence that glycogen serves to mediate intracellular signaling. This appears to be due, at least in part, to its negative regulatory effects on AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK).
I never stated that I am an elite athlete, but what is your point? Are you saying that concern for controlling variables only applies to elite athletes? You seem pretty hung up on the word “lifestyle” and equating that to livelihood and ultimately profession. You also seem to me to imply that training is more important than nutrition. I disagree and am not alone. In any case, with regards to the subject of consuming fats post workout, I agree that any effects are probably minor. I also agree that there are a myriad of factors that are important considerations and that nutrient timing is probably at the bottom of the list. But my statement stands that replenishing glycogen and restoring an energy surplus is within my control and I view it as beneficial, however small the effect may be. To me it is worthwhile to examine what is the cost vs. the benefit. It costs me nothing short of preparation to consume a PWO shake with carbs and protein that I would eventually consume anyway. Is there a benefit? I cannot prove that there is, but you cannot prove that there is not. Either way, I don’t see any potential for harm in it. And it is my opinion that I don’t have to be an “elite level athlete” to regulate my training or nutrient uptake.
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Well said.0
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“Your muscle glycogen isn't fully depleted in a training session”???
From the review paper Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?
sited above, “Similarly, Robergs et al. [8] reported that 3 sets of 12 RM performed to muscular failure resulted in a 26.1% reduction of glycogen stores in the vastus lateralis while six sets at this intensity led to a 38% decrease, primarily resulting from glycogen depletion in type II fibers compared to type I fibers. It therefore stands to reason that typical high volume bodybuilding-style workouts involving multiple exercises and sets for the same muscle group would deplete the majority of local glycogen stores.”
And
"...there is evidence that glycogen serves to mediate intracellular signaling. This appears to be due, at least in part, to its negative regulatory effects on AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK).
I never stated that I am an elite athlete, but what is your point? Are you saying that concern for controlling variables only applies to elite athletes? You seem pretty hung up on the word “lifestyle” and equating that to livelihood and ultimately profession. You also seem to me to imply that training is more important than nutrition. I disagree and am not alone. In any case, with regards to the subject of consuming fats post workout, I agree that any effects are probably minor. I also agree that there are a myriad of factors that are important considerations and that nutrient timing is probably at the bottom of the list. But my statement stands that replenishing glycogen and restoring an energy surplus is within my control and I view it as beneficial, however small the effect may be. To me it is worthwhile to examine what is the cost vs. the benefit. It costs me nothing short of preparation to consume a PWO shake with carbs and protein that I would eventually consume anyway. Is there a benefit? I cannot prove that there is, but you cannot prove that there is not. Either way, I don’t see any potential for harm in it. And it is my opinion that I don’t have to be an “elite level athlete” to regulate my training or nutrient uptake.
So, by the time you are back to training after the initial workout (provided you are not massively under-eating, specifically carbohydrates in that time frame) they will have been replenished.
That still doesn't concede that you need to have it immediately post workout or that it would provide an additional benefit.
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