Eating fats within 3 hours either side of a workout.
Options
Replies
-
Yeah, but the authors were also asked, (specifically Alan Aragon) if that means that he will abandon the post workout shake as soon as practical after training and his response was that he would not.0
-
Yeah, but the authors were also asked, (specifically Alan Aragon) if that means that he will abandon the post workout shake as soon as practical after training and his response was that he would not.
A lot of those shakes are also taken to replenish glycogen stores and you'll probably want something after a hard workout anyway so why not some protein? It's a win-win and we all do things for psychological reasons as well as practical reasons.
0 -
Exactly. Muscle glycogen must be replenished and you must be in an energy surplus in order to build muscle. It makes sense to get these things accomplished as quickly as possible. Will it make a difference in a study that last maybe 6 months? Probably not because of statistical significance. Many studies cited used a 12 week cycle, which is pretty much statistically insignificant if using a framework of a year or two.
So for those of us who do this as a lifestyle, potentially adding a pound of extra muscle in a year or two is appealing. For those that do not care or feel that this is "insignificant", that is fine with me. Gaining muscle as an experienced lifter is tough, and I will take every advantage I can get. It costs me virtually nothing extra to intake a PWO shake. I have nothing to loose and potentially muscle to gain so why not?
But as has been stated, it is not of PRIMARY importance and if for some reason someone misses PWO nutrition, it isn't the end of the world. I am with feralX in that I am going to do everything possible to maximize all effects I can control.0 -
Yeah, well Ben is an enhanced bodybuilder and the information from most bodybuilders aren't well supported by science.leanmuscleway wrote: »Thanks for the reply's. I cant find the articles now but i remember reading an article of Ben Palkuski a while ago on it.
Let me see if I can dig up something from a peer reviewed clinical study on it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
Exactly. Muscle glycogen must be replenished and you must be in an energy surplus in order to build muscle. It makes sense to get these things accomplished as quickly as possible. Will it make a difference in a study that last maybe 6 months? Probably not because of statistical significance. Many studies cited used a 12 week cycle, which is pretty much statistically insignificant if using a framework of a year or two.
So for those of us who do this as a lifestyle, potentially adding a pound of extra muscle in a year or two is appealing. For those that do not care or feel that this is "insignificant", that is fine with me. Gaining muscle as an experienced lifter is tough, and I will take every advantage I can get. It costs me virtually nothing extra to intake a PWO shake. I have nothing to loose and potentially muscle to gain so why not?
But as has been stated, it is not of PRIMARY importance and if for some reason someone misses PWO nutrition, it isn't the end of the world. I am with feralX in that I am going to do everything possible to maximize all effects I can control.
Why? Muscle glycogen is replenished over the course of feeding for normal individuals. You're using an argument that doesn't apply to you. Your "lifestlye" isn't that of an elite athlete, with multiple training bouts in a day. For those individuals, nutrient timing is of utmost importance. Your muscle glycogen isn't fully depleted in a training session, and a PWO shake for you honestly doesn't make even a statistical difference in muscle building. So many individuals talk of this "body-building lifestyle" like they are elite athletes. I'm not saying you don't train hard, but when your job and lifestlye depend on your athletic performance, nutrient timing becomes very important.
If a PWO shake gives you a mental advantage, then I'm all for it. But to argue that for the normal person nutrient timing will give a 1-2lbs of muscle growth over the year is a large stretch. You should be more worried about progressive overload, rest, form and range of motion for optimal muscle and strength growth. These are more in your control. Nutrient timing should be more of a concern for training performance for the majority of individuals. Do I have enough energy to get through my workout? Do I feel sluggish when eating a meal prior? Can I even eat after I train? These are better, real world questions. You aren't sabotaging your workout if your PWO meal consists of fat, or if you wait an hour or two after training to eat. I'm not saying to throw nutrition out of the window. Would I go 10 hours without eating after I train? No. But this emphasis on PWO nutrient timing isn't as important to the average person as you are making it out to be.0 -
“Your muscle glycogen isn't fully depleted in a training session”???
From the review paper Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?
sited above, “Similarly, Robergs et al. [8] reported that 3 sets of 12 RM performed to muscular failure resulted in a 26.1% reduction of glycogen stores in the vastus lateralis while six sets at this intensity led to a 38% decrease, primarily resulting from glycogen depletion in type II fibers compared to type I fibers. It therefore stands to reason that typical high volume bodybuilding-style workouts involving multiple exercises and sets for the same muscle group would deplete the majority of local glycogen stores.”
And
"...there is evidence that glycogen serves to mediate intracellular signaling. This appears to be due, at least in part, to its negative regulatory effects on AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK).
I never stated that I am an elite athlete, but what is your point? Are you saying that concern for controlling variables only applies to elite athletes? You seem pretty hung up on the word “lifestyle” and equating that to livelihood and ultimately profession. You also seem to me to imply that training is more important than nutrition. I disagree and am not alone. In any case, with regards to the subject of consuming fats post workout, I agree that any effects are probably minor. I also agree that there are a myriad of factors that are important considerations and that nutrient timing is probably at the bottom of the list. But my statement stands that replenishing glycogen and restoring an energy surplus is within my control and I view it as beneficial, however small the effect may be. To me it is worthwhile to examine what is the cost vs. the benefit. It costs me nothing short of preparation to consume a PWO shake with carbs and protein that I would eventually consume anyway. Is there a benefit? I cannot prove that there is, but you cannot prove that there is not. Either way, I don’t see any potential for harm in it. And it is my opinion that I don’t have to be an “elite level athlete” to regulate my training or nutrient uptake.
0 -
Well said.0
-
“Your muscle glycogen isn't fully depleted in a training session”???
From the review paper Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?
sited above, “Similarly, Robergs et al. [8] reported that 3 sets of 12 RM performed to muscular failure resulted in a 26.1% reduction of glycogen stores in the vastus lateralis while six sets at this intensity led to a 38% decrease, primarily resulting from glycogen depletion in type II fibers compared to type I fibers. It therefore stands to reason that typical high volume bodybuilding-style workouts involving multiple exercises and sets for the same muscle group would deplete the majority of local glycogen stores.”
And
"...there is evidence that glycogen serves to mediate intracellular signaling. This appears to be due, at least in part, to its negative regulatory effects on AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK).
I never stated that I am an elite athlete, but what is your point? Are you saying that concern for controlling variables only applies to elite athletes? You seem pretty hung up on the word “lifestyle” and equating that to livelihood and ultimately profession. You also seem to me to imply that training is more important than nutrition. I disagree and am not alone. In any case, with regards to the subject of consuming fats post workout, I agree that any effects are probably minor. I also agree that there are a myriad of factors that are important considerations and that nutrient timing is probably at the bottom of the list. But my statement stands that replenishing glycogen and restoring an energy surplus is within my control and I view it as beneficial, however small the effect may be. To me it is worthwhile to examine what is the cost vs. the benefit. It costs me nothing short of preparation to consume a PWO shake with carbs and protein that I would eventually consume anyway. Is there a benefit? I cannot prove that there is, but you cannot prove that there is not. Either way, I don’t see any potential for harm in it. And it is my opinion that I don’t have to be an “elite level athlete” to regulate my training or nutrient uptake.
So, by the time you are back to training after the initial workout (provided you are not massively under-eating, specifically carbohydrates in that time frame) they will have been replenished.
That still doesn't concede that you need to have it immediately post workout or that it would provide an additional benefit.
0 -
This study show otherwise...
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/170959240 -
This study show otherwise...
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924
What about dietary intake of the 2 groups? Where they completely equal as far as % of surplus?
Thats what I was looking for. It doesn't appear to be so...
https://www.purdue.edu/swo/nutrition/KnowItAll/HealthyWeightGain/EffectOfSupplTiming&ResistanceExcerciseOfSkeletalMuscleHypertrophy.pdf0 -
This study show otherwise...
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924
Just note, that study was one referenced by a paper by Aragon and others and they found little evidence of timing.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24864135
Also, a confounding factor in the one you reference is that they had a pre-workout as well as post-workout supplementation meaning that protein from before was likely filling up their amino acid pool prior and during the workout so that it was there for the window. I also didn't see a results section for the abstract that would have shown better the details. We cannot know the magnitude of the effects from the abstract .
ETA Thanks Kyle for the link.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »This study show otherwise...
Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924
What about dietary intake of the 2 groups? Where they completely equal as far as % of surplus?
Thats what I was looking for. It doesn't appear to be so...
https://www.purdue.edu/swo/nutrition/KnowItAll/HealthyWeightGain/EffectOfSupplTiming&ResistanceExcerciseOfSkeletalMuscleHypertrophy.pdf
Is it just me, or does it just look like the PRE-POST group was much more athletic than the MOR-EVE. Average same height but out weighed them by 4kg and 1kg less BF to boot. The results seem to indicate that the PRE-POST group probably outworked the MOR-EVE group.
ETA also the PRE-POST was ave 21in age(basically 18-24) and the MOR-EVE was ave 24 in age (20-28).0 -
I honestly love this debate lol! We can obviously go in circles with this, but I think we all agree that sans optimal training and overall nutrition, a focus on peri-workout nutrition is futile. My comment about lifestyle and comparing to elite athletes was to only serve as context. Does one need to be an elite athlete to be concerned with PWO nutrition and nutrient timing? Of course not. Does PWO nutrition and nutrient timing play a significant role in our (average athletes) quest for optimal strength/muscle/aesthetic/performance goals? I think we can all agree no. However, regardless of statistical significance, if one believes that they are to gain any type of edge from any activity, then that is indeed optimal for the individual.
Bottom line: what is optimal for you may not be optimal for me, and vice versa.0 -
dieselbyte wrote: »I honestly love this debate lol! We can obviously go in circles with this, but I think we all agree that sans optimal training and overall nutrition, a focus on peri-workout nutrition is futile. My comment about lifestyle and comparing to elite athletes was to only serve as context. Does one need to be an elite athlete to be concerned with PWO nutrition and nutrient timing? Of course not. Does PWO nutrition and nutrient timing play a significant role in our (average athletes) quest for optimal strength/muscle/aesthetic/performance goals? I think we can all agree no. However, regardless of statistical significance, if one believes that they are to gain any type of edge from any activity, then that is indeed optimal for the individual.
Bottom line: what is optimal for you may not be optimal for me, and vice versa.
Oh, we can certainly go in circles forever but I know I'm not an elite athlete. Will I still do a post workout drink? Sure. Does it really work? Not sure...0 -
Nutrient timing is very important? Sorry, I'll defer to Brad Schoenfeld and Alan Aragon for this one.dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/?report=classic0 -
tigersword wrote: »
Nutrient timing is very important? Sorry, I'll defer to Brad Schoenfeld and Alan Aragon for this one.dieselbyte wrote: »Myth pushed by supplement companies to push their low fat whey protein powders. Yes, fat slows down absorption, but if one were to follow the thinking of optimal muscle building only, then the question becomes why eat fat at ANY meal? So it is obvious that, apart from dietary fat being an essential macronutrient, PWO feeding isn't as important as total macronutrient intake for the day. My PWO feeding can be protein and carb rich, but if my overall intake is sub-optimal, I will experience sub-optimal results.
Bottom line - focus on total intake, not nutrient timing.
How could you possibly take the idea of limiting fat intake in the post workout window as a suggestion that ALL fat intake limits muscle growth? Fat is of course necessary for growth and health. It will also slow digestion of the protein post workout and blunt insulin response, which is not optimal for muscle growth.
Bottom line - mind your total intake, but for optimal results nutrient timing is very important. Carbs and protein pre and post workout, BCAAs and carbs intra workout if you're training high volume and long duration, and keep fats to your other feedings when slower digestion and minimal insulin release are desirable.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/?report=classic
Not surprising to see Aragon come up on this subject again. He certainly has done a lot of research on this.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392K Introduce Yourself
- 43.6K Getting Started
- 259.8K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.7K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 402 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.8K Motivation and Support
- 7.9K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.4K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 997 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.4K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions