DEXTROSE POST TRAINING

AKDonF

I think we agree on the things that matter. I guess my point in all of this is that there are a lot of people that have seen this study and misuse it to say that there is no benefit to taking a post workout shake.

But that is not what they studied and reviewed. The review was whether or not there is an 'anabolic window' which is to say that muscle muscular adaptations are ineffective if there is a delay in providing protein in the immediate period surrounding the training bout. In simpler terms, is the workout unproductive because of consuming nutrients within a longer time frame than immediately post workout. The answer is "no" which seems common sense to me anyway.

But there is a world of difference between ineffective and optimized. It may seem a small detail (and it is) to take a PWO shake, but my question is why wouldn't you try to optimize everything you can? Yeah, I agree you don't have to. But gaining muscle is really hard and I want every advantage that I can.

Sarauk2sf

AKDonF wrote: »

I think we agree on the things that matter. I guess my point in all of this is that there are a lot of people that have seen this study and misuse it to say that there is no benefit to taking a post workout shake.

But that is not what they studied and reviewed. The review was whether or not there is an 'anabolic window' which is to say that muscle muscular adaptations are ineffective if there is a delay in providing protein in the immediate period surrounding the training bout. In simpler terms, is the workout unproductive because of consuming nutrients within a longer time frame than immediately post workout. The answer is "no" which seems common sense to me anyway.

But there is a world of difference between ineffective and optimized. It may seem a small detail (and it is) to take a PWO shake, but my question is why wouldn't you try to optimize everything you can? Yeah, I agree you don't have to. But gaining muscle is really hard and I want every advantage that I can.

Still not seeing where what I have posted disagrees with that.

I really am not sure what you are disagreeing with at this point.

However, back to 'is a large dose of dextrose of any benefit' - not necessarily - it depends on the context such as how much whey you are having, whether you are having other carbs etc.

dieselbyte

AKDonF wrote: »

I think we agree on the things that matter. I guess my point in all of this is that there are a lot of people that have seen this study and misuse it to say that there is no benefit to taking a post workout shake.

But that is not what they studied and reviewed. The review was whether or not there is an 'anabolic window' which is to say that muscle muscular adaptations are ineffective if there is a delay in providing protein in the immediate period surrounding the training bout. In simpler terms, is the workout unproductive because of consuming nutrients within a longer time frame than immediately post workout. The answer is "no" which seems common sense to me anyway.

But there is a world of difference between ineffective and optimized. It may seem a small detail (and it is) to take a PWO shake, but my question is why wouldn't you try to optimize everything you can? Yeah, I agree you don't have to. But gaining muscle is really hard and I want every advantage that I can.

The majority of arguments I've seen center around your bolded statement and take an "all or nothing" approach. I call them arguments, because most included in the argument don't have a real understanding of the topic. One side either spews bro-science because it was told to them by some gear-head at the gym or by some supplement magazine, or the other side misuses scientific articles in an attempt to prove a point.

From the knowledgeable parties included, I consider this a debate centered around optimal results. We all know that the "30 minute" anabolic window doesn't exist. We also know that depending on pre-workout nutrition, i.e. training fasted, post workout nutrition becomes slightly more important in the short term for net protein balance. In an interview form 2012, Alan Aragon even stated that while intermittent fasting works for bodybuilding competitors, he questions whether it is optimal for muscle retention when dieting (I know this is a gaining weight thread). Alan futher states in the interview that he "would go as far as to say that attempting to precisely time nutrients is largely an exercise in jerking off hypotheses compared to hitting daily totals"

http://www.machinemuscle.com/interview-with-nutrition-expert-alan-aragon/

I know we all agree that post workout nutrition means nothing if your total nutrition and caloric intake is off.

Is dextrose supplementation with a protein shake necessary for muscle gain? Is nutrient timing necessary for muscle gain? No, not in the least. Will nutrient timing and dextrose supplementation produce optimal results over the long-term? The science isn't there one way or the other, but I say no. I personally believe that any increase in muscle mass from nutrient timing and insulin spiking will not be scientifcally significant over the long term, especially because every major aspect of nutrition and training needs to be on point. Someone else though can argue that if all major aspects of nutrition and training are on point, nutrient timing can lead to a small amount of muscle gain. Even if that gain is only 1lb over a year, someone can argue that 1lb is optimal. So it really comes down to personal preference.

I respect that @AKDonf is seeking any advantage possible, as that is optimal for his situation, and I respect that he isn't ignorantly saying nutrient timing is a must. But for me, I'd rather not be stressed if too many minutes pass after training and I haven't had a protein shake. I could go without 1lb of muscle more a year - that's optimal for me.

Sarauk2sf

To add to the above, trying to eek out a small and theoretical advantage of consuming fast acting carbs (of which dextrose is one - but by no means the only one) immediately post workout may well be missing the forest for the trees. Generally, and assuming nutrition for the day is on point and there is not a large gap between meals, pre-workout carbs are likely to be more beneficial as this can improve your workout and as such, improve MPS. Point here is that by focusing on one thing, or including too many things to worry about, the basics can be missed, or made harder to adhere to.

dieselbyte

Sarauk2sf wrote: »

To add to the above, trying to eek out a small and theoretical advantage of consuming fast acting carbs (of which dextrose is one - but by no means the only one) immediately post workout may well be missing the forest for the trees. Generally, and assuming nutrition for the day is on point and there is not a large gap between meals, pre-workout carbs are likely to be more beneficial as this can improve your workout and as such, improve MPS. I suppose what I am trying to say is that by focusing on one thing, or including too many things to worry about, the basics can be missed, or made harder to adhere to.

That was exactly my point in an earlier debate with @AKDonF. Many individuals will focus on a small piece instead of the total picture, thereby making the small piece irrelevant. We all know that the results the OP has seen isn't due to slamming dextrose, especially since its only been a few weeks, and the concern here would be for him to focus solely on PWO nutrition.

However, it seems @AKDonF is in the know, so I can't hold it against him if he's trying to eek out any possible advantage.

AKDonF

I agree with both of the above. The only caveat really is that there is no one size fits all. I train fasted and believe that it may have some benefit. My rationale is not unfounded though. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-009-1289-x

That said, I am also older (49) and there is evidence that these conditions may favor the use of both protein & carbohydrates PWO. As everything that has been said thus far, it is not absolutely conclusive. I don't find it stressful to take carbs/protein in the form of a shake PWO. It is no more difficult than tracking macros. So maybe it helps and maybe it doesn't. By the same token, if I cant get the shake in or if I forget or whatever else, I wont have a nervous breakdown or even miss stride.

In the end, if a PWO shake causes stress, I agree; no need to worry about it. I am not arguing with any of what is being said. What I am saying is don't dismiss something as irrelevant when in reality some protocols do have benefit for some. If nothing else, examining the small details fuels my OCD.

Sarauk2sf

AKDonF wrote: »

I agree with both of the above. The only caveat really is that there is no one size fits all. I train fasted and believe that it may have some benefit. My rationale is not unfounded though. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-009-1289-x

That said, I am also older (49) and there is evidence that these conditions may favor the use of both protein & carbohydrates PWO. As everything that has been said thus far, it is not absolutely conclusive. I don't find it stressful to take carbs/protein in the form of a shake PWO. It is no more difficult than tracking macros. So maybe it helps and maybe it doesn't. By the same token, if I cant get the shake in or if I forget or whatever else, I wont have a nervous breakdown or even miss stride.

In the end, if a PWO shake causes stress, I agree; no need to worry about it. I am not arguing with any of what is being said. What I am saying is don't dismiss something as irrelevant when in reality some protocols do have benefit for some. If nothing else, examining the small details fuels my OCD.

If you train fasted, then I would suggest that it would be more likely to be of benefit (well, carbs in general) - as is indicated in the link I provided. Same with BCAAs - while there is varying evidence to suggest they may or may not help - if you train fasted and as long as you can afford it, it is not a bad 'insurance policy'.

It's not about stress - its more about adherence. The comments I am making are really more for the benefit of others who may think they need to slam their dextrose/protein mix within 5 seconds of their last rep. You seem pretty aware of the limits of the possible benefits.

One slightly off topic comment - you are already probably aware, but as you get older, there is evidence to suggest the need to bolus your protein is increased.

AKDonF

Great points. Yeah, I do take BCAAs. I did get off topic a little. Definitely the take away (for the benefit of anyone reading this) is GET THE BASICS RIGHT above all else. Nutrition is incredibly important to success.