Thank god for The China Study

DatMurse

For this post, it is nothing against people who choose a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle based upon animal rights but simple claims that it is healthier than an omnivorous diet.

The book is a vegetarian book...
The study/data promotes omnivorism

I am so happy that he made this study. When vegans/vegetarians use it as a weapon of a healthier lifestyle, I can now use the data back at them in the argument. The study shows the effectiveness of an omnivorous diet.

The China "Study" is a book that has promoted vegetarianism and veganism through the use of an analysis of diet in Asia and the correlation of diseases. Dr. Campbell happened to use cholesterol as one of his main determining factors of the unhealthiness of animal protein. What he doesn't tell you is that the data he compiled was interpreted for the book is something he picked and chose to mention in his book in regards to cancer and chronic diseases.
I have met several people recently who mentioned this book and tried using it as an argument.

His study was not a peer reviewed study and while his book is still selling this con artist has screwed so many people over into believing such a diet is much healthier than an omnivorous diet. I'm glad he did the study, but it seems that his personal beliefs heavily influenced his interpretation of the results. It actually supports an omnivorous diet than anything else. LOL

Now all of my fellow omnivoric posters out there will be able to use the same "weapon" against any vegans/vegetarians that attempt to use this book.

Denise Minger did a very good data analysis on the actual findings of the study and what the true results were.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
other sites
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/385/

mmddwechanged

I have about six vegan books on my bookshelf and they all cite this study, and not much else, if they want to back up any claim that 100% non-animal products is the only way to be healthy or avoid disease.

Not in for weapon sharing though. That sounds a little violent to me;)

89nunu

Very interesting indeed. I'm a vegetarian myself but I never thought it was healthier than an omnivorous diet (I also don't take your post as an insult). I generally think as long as you look out for what and how and in what quantities you eat any diet can be healthy. This of course also works the other way around with being unhealthy. Which is why I think that any kind of generalisation of a specified diet (like vegetarianism, veganism, but also no carbs or low fat) being more healthy than another is rather narrow minded. Apart from medical reasons, for things like low carbing, I don't see how any diet is supposed to be more healthy than another as long as you look out for what you eat.

Just my thoughts on this...

DatMurse

Very interesting indeed. I'm a vegetarian myself but I never thought it was healthier than an omnivorous diet (I also don't take your post as an insult). I generally think as long as you look out for what and how and in what quantities you eat any diet can be healthy. This of course also works the other way around with being unhealthy. Which is why I think that any kind of generalisation of a specified diet (like vegetarianism, veganism, but also no carbs or low fat) being more healthy than another is rather narrow minded. Apart from medical reasons, for things like low carbing, I don't see how any diet is supposed to be more healthy than another as long as you look out for what you eat.

Just my thoughts on this...

Well its just that before I started the post I wanted to let people know I didnt want to do this to attack their beliefs of animal rights.
People try justifying their diet with it being healthier based off of research and that is a different story.
The thing is that protein is not just protein. Not all protein is created equal. Amino acid complex does matter.
ex. if 2 bodybuilders on an isocaloric diet. One had 100g of protein derived from steak, other had 100g of protein derived from plant based.

The animal protein bodybuilder would retain/build alot more muscle mass than the plant one

_Zardoz_

Someone seems to have a chip on their shoulders about vegans vegetarians it seems. There are healthy vegan/ vegetarian diet as there are unhealthy ones. There are healthy omnivorous diets as there are unhealthy ones. Get over it and do your own thing.

As a vegan I have more problem with meat eaters writing total rubbish about protein and calcium. I as most of my vegan friends don't preach to anyone but will happily discuss with people if they wish. I've noticed with this forum there seems to be quite an an evangelical anti vegan lobby who will have a pop whenever they can (your post is proof of this) Get over yourselves and worry about your own diet rather than constantly trying to score points on others life style choices

Also I suggest you read Jack Norris on vegan sources of protein I'm afraid it shows your conclusions about quality of protein to have little basis

pittbullgirl

Very intresting thoughts.
My husband is currently reading this book....

DatMurse

Someone seems to have a chip on their shoulders about vegans vegetarians it seems. There are healthy vegan/ vegetarian diet as there are unhealthy ones. There are healthy omnivorous diets as there are unhealthy ones. Get over it and do your own thing.

As a vegan I have more problem with meat eaters writing total rubbish about protein and calcium. I as most of my vegan friends don't preach to anyone but will happily discuss with people if they wish. I've noticed with this forum there seems to be quite an an evangelical anti vegan lobby who will have a pop whenever they can (your post is proof of this) Get over yourselves and worry about your own diet rather than constantly trying to score points on others life style choices

Also I suggest you read Jack Norris on vegan sources of protein I'm afraid it shows your conclusions about quality of protein to have little basis

Quality of protein has little basis? no. I am talking about for optimal muscle building. Not all sub-categories of macronutrients carry the same function. I am not talking about the normal person. I am talking about a bodybuilder.

There are many posts in this forum advocating veganism or vegetarianism on the basis of the china study. I said in the inital sentence that I am not here to bash people who choose veganism as a choice of personal beliefs so its not antivegan on that base.

I said that specifically in the first sentence to make sure I did not offend anyone's personal beliefs.

I am against veganism on the basis it is healthier than an omnivorious diet. If you do not like it then you shouldnt be registered onto an online discussion board.

prattiger65

Someone seems to have a chip on their shoulders about vegans vegetarians it seems. There are healthy vegan/ vegetarian diet as there are unhealthy ones. There are healthy omnivorous diets as there are unhealthy ones. Get over it and do your own thing.

As a vegan I have more problem with meat eaters writing total rubbish about protein and calcium. I as most of my vegan friends don't preach to anyone but will happily discuss with people if they wish. I've noticed with this forum there seems to be quite an an evangelical anti vegan lobby who will have a pop whenever they can (your post is proof of this) Get over yourselves and worry about your own diet rather than constantly trying to score points on others life style choices

Also I suggest you read Jack Norris on vegan sources of protein I'm afraid it shows your conclusions about quality of protein to have little basis

You haven't been here long have you? We roadkill eaters are constantly barraged by the veg crowd. This post is very polite in comparison. Did you even read what he cited? Perhaps Mr. Norris is off base? Get over yourself.

neanderthin

Someone seems to have a chip on their shoulders about vegans vegetarians it seems. There are healthy vegan/ vegetarian diet as there are unhealthy ones. There are healthy omnivorous diets as there are unhealthy ones. Get over it and do your own thing.

As a vegan I have more problem with meat eaters writing total rubbish about protein and calcium. I as most of my vegan friends don't preach to anyone but will happily discuss with people if they wish. I've noticed with this forum there seems to be quite an an evangelical anti vegan lobby who will have a pop whenever they can (your post is proof of this) Get over yourselves and worry about your own diet rather than constantly trying to score points on others life style choices

Also I suggest you read Jack Norris on vegan sources of protein I'm afraid it shows your conclusions about quality of protein to have little basis

Unfortunately this is about the data of the China Study, not about whether one diet is better than another, which I agree with you can be variable depending on the choices people make. Protein is always a sore spot for vegans and haven't seen many vegans that didn't think protein was very important......might have something to do with it's availability in a whole natural diet, without resorting to highly processed choices. Just my observations.

DatMurse

Someone seems to have a chip on their shoulders about vegans vegetarians it seems. There are healthy vegan/ vegetarian diet as there are unhealthy ones. There are healthy omnivorous diets as there are unhealthy ones. Get over it and do your own thing.

As a vegan I have more problem with meat eaters writing total rubbish about protein and calcium. I as most of my vegan friends don't preach to anyone but will happily discuss with people if they wish. I've noticed with this forum there seems to be quite an an evangelical anti vegan lobby who will have a pop whenever they can (your post is proof of this) Get over yourselves and worry about your own diet rather than constantly trying to score points on others life style choices

Also I suggest you read Jack Norris on vegan sources of protein I'm afraid it shows your conclusions about quality of protein to have little basis

Unfortunately this is about the data of the China Study, not about whether one diet is better than another, which I agree with you can be variable depending on the choices people make. Protein is always a sore spot for vegans and haven't seen many vegans that didn't think protein was very important......might have something to do with it's availability in a whole natural diet, without resorting to highly processed choices. Just my observations.

They can still obtain it via rice/hemp/soy protein. it is pretty pricey though. Most of them do not value the importance of protein.
Honestly with veganism their sore spot (in my opinion) is b12.

neanderthin

Someone seems to have a chip on their shoulders about vegans vegetarians it seems. There are healthy vegan/ vegetarian diet as there are unhealthy ones. There are healthy omnivorous diets as there are unhealthy ones. Get over it and do your own thing.

As a vegan I have more problem with meat eaters writing total rubbish about protein and calcium. I as most of my vegan friends don't preach to anyone but will happily discuss with people if they wish. I've noticed with this forum there seems to be quite an an evangelical anti vegan lobby who will have a pop whenever they can (your post is proof of this) Get over yourselves and worry about your own diet rather than constantly trying to score points on others life style choices

Also I suggest you read Jack Norris on vegan sources of protein I'm afraid it shows your conclusions about quality of protein to have little basis

Unfortunately this is about the data of the China Study, not about whether one diet is better than another, which I agree with you can be variable depending on the choices people make. Protein is always a sore spot for vegans and haven't seen many vegans that didn't think protein was very important......might have something to do with it's availability in a whole natural diet, without resorting to highly processed choices. Just my observations.

They can still obtain it via rice/hemp/soy protein. it is pretty pricey though. Most of them do not value the importance of protein.
Honestly with veganism their sore spot (in my opinion) is b12.

Yeah, b12 is quite common. Any diet has it's shortcomings in one way or another, but it seems vegans take it very, very personally and display the usual suspects in studies, that mostly are either not in context or are correlation type and bias or just outright bias. Vegetarianism and Pescatarian have always been shown to be more healthy than vegan, so it's not just us disgusting meat eaters that believe veganism has a few drawbacks, and when you get a Dr. like Campbell that in an obvious way (bias) relays data to only show one side of the story.....his side, to be quite disingenuous as a Dr. or scientist goes........he got personal and many didn't like it.

fiberartist219

Why do people like to argue with each other about what they eat?

Cheers to the study for trying to figure out what's healthy, but each person has to figure out for themselves what they should or shouldn't eat. My personal beliefs are not the same as all of my friends, and my metabolism is different too. Everybody's different.

brower47

I'm amazed anyone uses that book for anything more than a paper weight or quick start kindling. Has anything been more clearly debunked? But I guess in the interest keeping the peace, I should not attack other people's religion. /le sigh

eric_sg61

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

89nunu

Well its just that before I started the post I wanted to let people know I didnt want to do this to attack their beliefs of animal rights.
People try justifying their diet with it being healthier based off of research and that is a different story.
The thing is that protein is not just protein. Not all protein is created equal. Amino acid complex does matter.
ex. if 2 bodybuilders on an isocaloric diet. One had 100g of protein derived from steak, other had 100g of protein derived from plant based.

The animal protein bodybuilder would retain/build alot more muscle mass than the plant one

That's why we got whey protein powder and eggs

[/quote]
Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.

[/quote]

Hahaha!! Do you know my dad?? That's exactly what he thought when I told him I became a vegetarian :laugh:

Sarauk2sf

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

Well, that is an obnoxious and ridiculous article if ever I saw one.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

eric_sg61

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

Well, that is an obnoxious and ridiculous article if ever I saw one.

Yeah, he is not for everyone but backs everything up with references.

Sarauk2sf

Very interesting indeed. I'm a vegetarian myself but I never thought it was healthier than an omnivorous diet (I also don't take your post as an insult). I generally think as long as you look out for what and how and in what quantities you eat any diet can be healthy. This of course also works the other way around with being unhealthy. Which is why I think that any kind of generalisation of a specified diet (like vegetarianism, veganism, but also no carbs or low fat) being more healthy than another is rather narrow minded. Apart from medical reasons, for things like low carbing, I don't see how any diet is supposed to be more healthy than another as long as you look out for what you eat.

Just my thoughts on this...

Well its just that before I started the post I wanted to let people know I didnt want to do this to attack their beliefs of animal rights.
People try justifying their diet with it being healthier based off of research and that is a different story.
The thing is that protein is not just protein. Not all protein is created equal. Amino acid complex does matter.
ex. if 2 bodybuilders on an isocaloric diet. One had 100g of protein derived from steak, other had 100g of protein derived from plant based.

The animal protein bodybuilder would retain/build alot more muscle mass than the plant one

1) - you can get a complete amino acid profile from plant based foods

2) - lets not confuse veganism with vegetarianism

3) - I agree that the China Study is a pile of cr@p when people try to use the 'findings' to tout the 'benefits' of a plant based diet.

Sarauk2sf

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

Well, that is an obnoxious and ridiculous article if ever I saw one.

Yeah, he is not for everyone but backs everything up with references.

What, the fact that vegetarians are insane? Is that backed up? Also, conformational bias much?

I am pretty sure Dahmer was a meat eater...what should I conclude from that?

RobynLB83

I was a vegan from the age of 12 to the age of 25. I was sick as hell all the time, panic attacks, chronic fatigue, anemia, dizzy spells, brain fog, had to eat every 2-3 hours etc. etc. etc. This is NOT a healthy diet. And don't say I was a French Fry vegetarian. I ate produce, whole grains, beans, tofu. 100% real food diet.

KBSwinger

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

For real???

eric_sg61

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

Well, that is an obnoxious and ridiculous article if ever I saw one.

Yeah, he is not for everyone but backs everything up with references.

What, the fact that vegetarians are insane? Is that backed up? Also, conformational bias much?

I am pretty sure Dahmer was a meat eater...what should I conclude from that?

Our ancestors were meat eaters too..it is how they survived. Modern agriculture allows vegan/vegetarians to survive. You can't sustain life on twigs and berries without modern agriculture.

mmddwechanged

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

For real???

I know right!

I googled the article, felt slightly offended, then found another delightful site about how to make tin foil hats for beginners!

Here's a nice example:

DatMurse

Why do people like to argue with each other about what they eat?

Cheers to the study for trying to figure out what's healthy, but each person has to figure out for themselves what they should or shouldn't eat. My personal beliefs are not the same as all of my friends, and my metabolism is different too. Everybody's different.

Only one chance at life. there is health beyond micro and macronutrients, so you still have to be careful

Sarauk2sf

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

Well, that is an obnoxious and ridiculous article if ever I saw one.

Yeah, he is not for everyone but backs everything up with references.

What, the fact that vegetarians are insane? Is that backed up? Also, conformational bias much?

I am pretty sure Dahmer was a meat eater...what should I conclude from that?

Our ancestors were meat eaters too..it is how they survived. Modern agriculture allows vegan/vegetarians to survive. You can't sustain life on twigs and berries without modern agriculture.

What does that have to do with anything?

eric_sg61

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

Well, that is an obnoxious and ridiculous article if ever I saw one.

Yeah, he is not for everyone but backs everything up with references.

What, the fact that vegetarians are insane? Is that backed up? Also, conformational bias much?

I am pretty sure Dahmer was a meat eater...what should I conclude from that?

Our ancestors were meat eaters too..it is how they survived. Modern agriculture allows vegan/vegetarians to survive. You can't sustain life on twigs and berries without modern agriculture.

What does that have to do with anything?

What does Dahmer being a meat eater have to do with anything..

Sarauk2sf

Google Chaos and Pain-Vegetarianism and Veganism- The Best Indicators of Severe Mental Illness Since the Tinfoil Hat.
The site is NSFW, but offers a good historic overview of veganism.

Well, that is an obnoxious and ridiculous article if ever I saw one.

Yeah, he is not for everyone but backs everything up with references.

What, the fact that vegetarians are insane? Is that backed up? Also, conformational bias much?

I am pretty sure Dahmer was a meat eater...what should I conclude from that?

Our ancestors were meat eaters too..it is how they survived. Modern agriculture allows vegan/vegetarians to survive. You can't sustain life on twigs and berries without modern agriculture.

What does that have to do with anything?

What does Dahmer being a meat eater have to do with anything..

Some example of loons who were vegetarians apparently means that all vegetarians are insane...so...

ndj1979

in ...for the vegetarian on omnivore battle..!

DatMurse

Very interesting indeed. I'm a vegetarian myself but I never thought it was healthier than an omnivorous diet (I also don't take your post as an insult). I generally think as long as you look out for what and how and in what quantities you eat any diet can be healthy. This of course also works the other way around with being unhealthy. Which is why I think that any kind of generalisation of a specified diet (like vegetarianism, veganism, but also no carbs or low fat) being more healthy than another is rather narrow minded. Apart from medical reasons, for things like low carbing, I don't see how any diet is supposed to be more healthy than another as long as you look out for what you eat.

Just my thoughts on this...

Well its just that before I started the post I wanted to let people know I didnt want to do this to attack their beliefs of animal rights.
People try justifying their diet with it being healthier based off of research and that is a different story.
The thing is that protein is not just protein. Not all protein is created equal. Amino acid complex does matter.
ex. if 2 bodybuilders on an isocaloric diet. One had 100g of protein derived from steak, other had 100g of protein derived from plant based.

The animal protein bodybuilder would retain/build alot more muscle mass than the plant one

1) - you can get a complete amino acid profile from plant based foods

2) - lets not confuse veganism with vegetarianism

3) - I agree that the China Study is a pile of cr@p when people try to use the 'findings' to tout the 'benefits' of a plant based diet.

1)Yes you can obtain a complete amino acid from plant based food. this is true.
but how much? my point was talking about the amino acid profile of animal based protein vs plant based protein.
lower amount of protein intake the more important the profile is.
but i was using 100g of protein just as a form of an arguement. with adequate protein intake from the numbers we put up it isnt as big of a deal.
ex. leucine in 100g of protein
whey -11g
casein - 8.9
egg - 6.8
soy 6.6
hemp - 2.5-2.8
Then you have BV, etc(just got numbers off random websites, did not evaluate the AA profile of all brands)
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/what-are-good-sources-of-protein-introduction.html


2) I know vegetarians can still be fine in the world of bodybuilding, i have been receiving vegetarian remakes since I been here in person on MAUI. Many of the haoles(white people) that happen to be hippies too are vegan/vegetarian and promote the china diet. I know you are a vegetarian. It wasnt directed toward all vegetarians, just the one who utilize the book as a source.

3) agreed

jofjltncb6

Why do people like to argue with each other about what they eat?

Cheers to the study for trying to figure out what's healthy, but each person has to figure out for themselves what they should or shouldn't eat. My personal beliefs are not the same as all of my friends, and my metabolism is different too. Everybody's different.

In...

...for a discussion of the importance and ramifications of accuracy and completeness in scientific studies and in the conclusions derived from them.