Advanced Calorie Calculations - check my math
RNGRZulu
Posts: 3,964 Member
Hi all - I've been trying a new way (for me) to get more accuracy.
1. Weighing/measuring foods
2. Wearing a Polar Loop all day
3. Using a Polar H7 HRM during cardio
4. Recording everything on a spreadsheet as follows:
Total daily Cals (from Polar Flow)
Workout Cals (from Polar Flow)
Calories eaten (from MFP)
With those data points I should be able to get a better estimate of:
BMR (Total daily Cals - Workout Cals)
Daily Caloric Deficit target (BMR - Calories eaten)
So...here are the problems -
I looked at other online BMR/TDEE calculators (I can tell you if you're curious) (btw I'm 47, Male, 6'0", 232lbs, workout 5x per week - mix of lifting, HIIT, and hard cardio)
The numbers I got online were:
BMR 1965 or 2105
TDEE 3046 or 3263
That's avg BMR 2035 and TDEE 3155
I've been doing my own calculations based on my Polar Loop/Flow and I get an avg BMR of 2845 and TDEE of 3298.
So, I have been eating an average of 1685 calories per day (yes, a bit lower than I should)...but I haven't lost a pound. I'm admitting that 1) this is pretty early and 2) I do life heavy so I could be adding LBM. However, my average daily caloric deficit has been 1159 vs BMR (2845 - 1685) so I should see some weight loss over time.
Am I doing this way wrong?
I know people are going to tell me to eat more, but 1685 certainly is not going to put me into "starvation mode" if that even exists.
And, I'm able to power through my workouts without crashing and I do sleep well.
I am spotty on my water intake, so maybe I'm retaining. If I keep plugging along and get consistent 120oz of water, hopefully I will see a drop.
1. Weighing/measuring foods
2. Wearing a Polar Loop all day
3. Using a Polar H7 HRM during cardio
4. Recording everything on a spreadsheet as follows:
Total daily Cals (from Polar Flow)
Workout Cals (from Polar Flow)
Calories eaten (from MFP)
With those data points I should be able to get a better estimate of:
BMR (Total daily Cals - Workout Cals)
Daily Caloric Deficit target (BMR - Calories eaten)
So...here are the problems -
I looked at other online BMR/TDEE calculators (I can tell you if you're curious) (btw I'm 47, Male, 6'0", 232lbs, workout 5x per week - mix of lifting, HIIT, and hard cardio)
The numbers I got online were:
BMR 1965 or 2105
TDEE 3046 or 3263
That's avg BMR 2035 and TDEE 3155
I've been doing my own calculations based on my Polar Loop/Flow and I get an avg BMR of 2845 and TDEE of 3298.
So, I have been eating an average of 1685 calories per day (yes, a bit lower than I should)...but I haven't lost a pound. I'm admitting that 1) this is pretty early and 2) I do life heavy so I could be adding LBM. However, my average daily caloric deficit has been 1159 vs BMR (2845 - 1685) so I should see some weight loss over time.
Am I doing this way wrong?
I know people are going to tell me to eat more, but 1685 certainly is not going to put me into "starvation mode" if that even exists.
And, I'm able to power through my workouts without crashing and I do sleep well.
I am spotty on my water intake, so maybe I'm retaining. If I keep plugging along and get consistent 120oz of water, hopefully I will see a drop.
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Replies
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http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/
and
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/another-look-at-metabolic-damage.html/#more-9313
How long have you been tracking with the spreadsheet? You will get better numbers after a month. Remember that BMR is what your body would burn if you slept all day...the BMR you have calculated sounds like BMR+NEAT (non-exercise activity...ie. calories from moving around in the day). Your total deficit is closer to 1600 when you take TDEE - intake. That is substantial and plays into what is discussed in the above articles.
So most likely, your cortisol levels are rising and causing you to retain water. You are not going to pack on lean mass faster than you can lose fat so that won't cause the scale to stall, but you can retain enough water weight to mask fat loss. You may want to also take measurements to make sure that there is movement in some fashion while you lose enough fat to offset the water gain.0 -
How long have you been doing this?0
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I've been recording everything on the spreadsheet for 11 days. I've been keeping generally the same levels of calories and activity for the last month. Haven't lost anything.0
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TDEE is what you burn total from all sources per day. Your Polar Loop should give you this #. BMR is what your body uses for basic bodily functions like heart rate/body temp control/food digestion/etc. BMR is not something you need to worry about since you have a fitness tracker for computing your total daily bur. It factors in your stats, BMR, etc.
When you say you weigh/measure your food: what do you mean? If you're using cups/spoons for anything solid, then your log is likely full of inaccuracies. Even so probably not enough to wipe out your deficit if your burn daily is 3000+ and you think you're eating 1685. Beyond that = 11 days may be too soon to judge.0 -
StaciMarie1974 wrote: »TDEE is what you burn total from all sources per day. Your Polar Loop should give you this #. BMR is what your body uses for basic bodily functions like heart rate/body temp control/food digestion/etc. BMR is not something you need to worry about since you have a fitness tracker for computing your total daily bur. It factors in your stats, BMR, etc.
When you say you weigh/measure your food: what do you mean? If you're using cups/spoons for anything solid, then your log is likely full of inaccuracies. Even so probably not enough to wipe out your deficit if your burn daily is 3000+ and you think you're eating 1685. Beyond that = 11 days may be too soon to judge.
I usually measure my proteins on a kitchen scale so I know how many ounces I'm eating. I usually measure others by volume. For example, 4oz of dry oatmeal is easier to measure with a 1/2 cup, 2 cups of spinach is easier to measure out this way.
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I recorded my Daily TDEE, NEAT, Workout Calories, Calories Eaten.
Averages from 30 Jan through 16 Feb:
TDEE: 3283
NEAT: 2835
Workout Calories: 447 (includes zero days; 671 with those removed)
Calories Eaten: 1673
That leads me to what my average caloric deficit was:
vs TDEE = 1610 (11270 per week)
vs NEAT = 1163 (8140 per week)
Take those averages, and consider 3500 kCal per pound of loss, I should be losing 2.3lbs (using NEAT) per week, or 3.2lbs (using TDEE) per week.
When I look at the actual total calorie deficit from 30 Jan through 16 Feb it's: 28981 (TDEE) or 20931 (NEAT). My total weight loss should have been 8.3lbs (TDEE) or 6.0lbs (NEAT).
I've only lost one (1) pound in this time.
Larger sample set? Am I just not going to lose weight? The whole concept of 3500 calorie deficit results in 1lb of weight loss doesn't seem to be working.
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I recorded my Daily TDEE, NEAT, Workout Calories, Calories Eaten.
Averages from 30 Jan through 16 Feb:
TDEE: 3283
NEAT: 2835
Workout Calories: 447 (includes zero days; 671 with those removed)
Calories Eaten: 1673
That leads me to what my average caloric deficit was:
vs TDEE = 1610 (11270 per week)
vs NEAT = 1163 (8140 per week)
Take those averages, and consider 3500 kCal per pound of loss, I should be losing 2.3lbs (using NEAT) per week, or 3.2lbs (using TDEE) per week.
When I look at the actual total calorie deficit from 30 Jan through 16 Feb it's: 28981 (TDEE) or 20931 (NEAT). My total weight loss should have been 8.3lbs (TDEE) or 6.0lbs (NEAT).
I've only lost one (1) pound in this time.
Larger sample set? Am I just not going to lose weight? The whole concept of 3500 calorie deficit results in 1lb of weight loss doesn't seem to be working.
I really doubt you're burning as many calories as you think you are and you are probably burning more calories than you realize. Eat less. Move more. Lose weight.0 -
How accurately are you tracking your calories in? Using a food scale for all solids, or still measuring cups for all but protein? The less you use a food scale, the more you have room for error.
And just to clarify: the TDEE value of 3283, is this the average of your total daily burn based on using the Polar Loop?0 -
TimothyFish
How off do you think I am?
Say I'm actually burning 1/2 as much as I'm getting through using my HRM for my cardio that would be...223 burned per workout. If I'm eating 25% more than I'm recording...that would be 2509 calories per day (836 more than I'm recording).
That's 2286 net calories.
You really think that's the problem?
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StaciMarie1974 wrote: »And just to clarify: the TDEE value of 3283, is this the average of your total daily burn based on using the Polar Loop?
Yes... Is that wrong?
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StaciMarie1974 wrote: »And just to clarify: the TDEE value of 3283, is this the average of your total daily burn based on using the Polar Loop?
Yes... Is that wrong?
Yes. Maybe.
ALL the numbers are guesses. Just pick one, track diligently, and you can figure out your TDEE from your actual results.
There have been plenty of diaries on MFP where people's supposedly diligent logging was off by 100%.0 -
Well, I can't make random changes.
If my Total Calories Burned are based on my activity tracked with my Polar Loop, with Heart Rate Monitor for my workouts, calculated through Polar Flow.
Don't know of any more accurate way to record...I wouldn't call it a guess. I could use the estimate formulas on MFP or Scooby, or elsewhere. But wouldn't those be more "guesses" than what I'm doing?
I will look at the accuracy of my food measurements. Starting this week, I eat one solid meal per day (5oz protein, fish, chicken, turkey, etc. weighed out), with 2 cups of green veggies. The rest are whey isolate or casein with a measured quantity of almond or soy milk, banana or berries, measured almond butter. All will be on my diary.0 -
Don't know of any more accurate way to record...I wouldn't call it a guess. I could use the estimate formulas on MFP or Scooby, or elsewhere. But wouldn't those be more "guesses" than what I'm doing?
Your activity tracker doesn't measure calorie burn, it uses math very much like Scooby or whatever to guess at calorie burn.
They're all estimates.
Logging + the scale will tell you what your actual TDEE is. Short of locking yourself into a calorimeter bubble, there is no more accurate way.
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You are right...but that estimate of my BRM is the fixed variable (depends on which model I use). I'm trying to get my total by adding my calories burned from recoding my heart rate....but, calories burned based on heart rate would also be an estimate.
From all I read, going under 1500 Cals is unhealthy. I'm only 173 over that. Is everyone suggesting that I need to eat less and workout more than the 75-90 minutes 5x per week (heavy weight training, HIIT, sprints, spin class)?0 -
Personally I'm not suggesting anything until your diary is visible. It's a rare male indeed who won't lose weight at 1600-ish calories...especially at the claimed work load.
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My diary is visible. At least I thought it was.0
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Nope.
EDIT: Visible to friends, now.
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If there is a better way to estimate my calories burned per workout, please let me know. I crushed it yesterday and today was the same.
I'm not trying to defend the program I'm following. I'm trying to lean out and I am considering all input.
But, if one person is telling me to eat 2800cals and someone else is telling me to eat 1500cals, who someone is telling me to up my cardio and someone else is telling me to decrease cardio and up the weights and someone else is telling me to cut down my activity...it's tough to make sense of it all.
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UPDATED Info...
No weight loss this week. In fact, I gained 1.2 lbs. (230 lbs, 6 ft)
Lifting moderately heavy. Good sessions. Had two solid meals per day most days. The other 4 meals were shakes. Most of the cardio was sprint intervals on the TM, Arc, or Elliptical. Spin classes cancelled this week except for today (we just did it ourselves when the leader was delayed).
My average calories eaten per day has been 1757 over the past 7 days.
My average workout has been 461 calories per day.
That's a net intake of 1296 calories.
BMR 2105 (Scooby).
Deficit comes out to avg 809 calories per day.
BMR Workout Eaten Daily Def.
Fri 2105 311 1616 800
Sat 2105 0 1860 245
Sun 2105 804 1697 1212
Mon 2105 639 1889 855
Tue 2105 517 1689 933
Wed 2105 500 2095 510
Thu 2105 459 1458 1106
Weekly Def 5661
Exp. Wt Loss 1.62
I should have lost 1.6 lbs, I gained 1.2 = gross of 2.8 lbs in the wrong direction.
Going to monitor my H2O intake and keep a clean weekend. See where I am Monday morning. Might be retention. Going to take the weight down a bit, add more reps and get more supersets/circuit-style training.0 -
Hi all - I've been trying a new way (for me) to get more accuracy.
1. Weighing/measuring foods
2. Wearing a Polar Loop all day
3. Using a Polar H7 HRM during cardio
4. Recording everything on a spreadsheet as follows:
Total daily Cals (from Polar Flow)
Workout Cals (from Polar Flow)
Calories eaten (from MFP)
With those data points I should be able to get a better estimate of:
BMR (Total daily Cals - Workout Cals)
Daily Caloric Deficit target (BMR - Calories eaten)
So...here are the problems -
I looked at other online BMR/TDEE calculators (I can tell you if you're curious) (btw I'm 47, Male, 6'0", 232lbs, workout 5x per week - mix of lifting, HIIT, and hard cardio)
The numbers I got online were:
BMR 1965 or 2105
TDEE 3046 or 3263
That's avg BMR 2035 and TDEE 3155
I've been doing my own calculations based on my Polar Loop/Flow and I get an avg BMR of 2845 and TDEE of 3298.
So, I have been eating an average of 1685 calories per day (yes, a bit lower than I should)...but I haven't lost a pound. I'm admitting that 1) this is pretty early and 2) I do life heavy so I could be adding LBM. However, my average daily caloric deficit has been 1159 vs BMR (2845 - 1685) so I should see some weight loss over time.
Am I doing this way wrong?
I know people are going to tell me to eat more, but 1685 certainly is not going to put me into "starvation mode" if that even exists.
And, I'm able to power through my workouts without crashing and I do sleep well.
I am spotty on my water intake, so maybe I'm retaining. If I keep plugging along and get consistent 120oz of water, hopefully I will see a drop.
I think you do not understand what BMR means. Are you saying BMR is maintenance - exercise? If so that is not the case. Not sure what you think the BMR of 2845 means or how you calculated it.
Def not adding LBM in a deficit that large 1613 cal deficit (3298-1685) I am guessing water retention due to water intake and change in exercise. You should def not be eating less than TDEE -25% and you are doing TDEE-50%, keep this up and when you do lose a large % will be from lean muscle, not the fat you want to lose.
You said you weigh/measure food? Are you weight all solids and measuring liquids, or do you measure some solids? measuring solids could put you off 10-35%.
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4 oz of dried oatmeal measured in a measuring cup may well be 6 actual oz. of dried oatmeal. Weigh all the foods that aren't liquid, including your protein powder for your shakes. I think your problem is with the food logging, rather than the TDEE estimation. After that, weight loss isn't linear, you might just need to add a little more patience.0
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You are right...but that estimate of my BRM is the fixed variable (depends on which model I use). I'm trying to get my total by adding my calories burned from recoding my heart rate....but, calories burned based on heart rate would also be an estimate.
From all I read, going under 1500 Cals is unhealthy. I'm only 173 over that. Is everyone suggesting that I need to eat less and workout more than the 75-90 minutes 5x per week (heavy weight training, HIIT, sprints, spin class)?
below TDEE -25% is unhealthy, if your TDEE was 1800, 1500 cals would be fine.
I will go with a couple things device thinks your BMR is higher than it is and you are eating more than you think you are.0 -
UPDATED Info...
No weight loss this week. In fact, I gained 1.2 lbs. (230 lbs, 6 ft)
Lifting moderately heavy. Good sessions. Had two solid meals per day most days. The other 4 meals were shakes. Most of the cardio was sprint intervals on the TM, Arc, or Elliptical. Spin classes cancelled this week except for today (we just did it ourselves when the leader was delayed).
My average calories eaten per day has been 1757 over the past 7 days.
My average workout has been 461 calories per day.
That's a net intake of 1296 calories.
BMR 2105 (Scooby).
Deficit comes out to avg 809 calories per day.
BMR Workout Eaten Daily Def.
Fri 2105 311 1616 800
Sat 2105 0 1860 245
Sun 2105 804 1697 1212
Mon 2105 639 1889 855
Tue 2105 517 1689 933
Wed 2105 500 2095 510
Thu 2105 459 1458 1106
Weekly Def 5661
Exp. Wt Loss 1.62
I should have lost 1.6 lbs, I gained 1.2 = gross of 2.8 lbs in the wrong direction.
Going to monitor my H2O intake and keep a clean weekend. See where I am Monday morning. Might be retention. Going to take the weight down a bit, add more reps and get more supersets/circuit-style training.
again if Scooby has your BMR at 2105 your deficit is more than 809 as you don't calcualte your deficit from BMR!!! ignore BMR for anything other than an input that is used to estimate TDEE. You shoudl look at your intake of 1757 vs. your TDEE of X the deficit would be X-1757, this issue it you may have ate more than the 1757 you think you did and your TDEE may be lower than X, due to an over estimation of BMR and or activity level.0 -
Bottom Line (according to me, take it for what its worth) if your Polar Loop shows you burning 3200 per day you can ignore all the other computer generated #s. Even if its 'off' (even the best trackers can't claim 100% accuracy) then you should still be losing at 1600-1800 calories.
Are you using a food scale for everything solid? Such as the shake/powders? If not, how calorie dense are they? Though in reality even if your calorie intake was underestimated and calorie burn was overestimated, you'd need to be way off to explain no weight loss.
Have you had thyroid, etc. checked to rule out medical issues? Do you think you have a very low level of muscle/lean body mass? If so that could make your actual BMR lower than the mathematical models assume. Last though, though I don't have personal experience, some report better results by changing up their macros or what they eat. Maybe avoid the shakes for a while, go with real food (weighed on a scale). Can't hurt to try at this point perhaps?0 -
Thanks...
I don't think I have relatively low lean body mass. I'm a bigger guy and I lift 5 days a week. I don't want to be a big guy though. I only lift now to maintain lean body mass while my body is (theoretically) losing overall mass.
I weigh all of my solid protein on a kitchen scale ... Except hb egg whites and yogurt. I will have to get another scale for work to measure the vegetables I have for lunch and the oatmeal that I sometimes have for breakfast. I suppose I should weigh the banana I eat rather than measure them. Powder I measure out per the nutritionals on the back label (use the barcode scan).
If I'm under-estimating, I'd have to be waaaaaay off though.0 -
You probably are off enough to keep you from losing. If it isn't liquid it should be weighed.0
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Agree with everyone commenting that there seems to be a BMR vs. NEAT misunderstanding and you really don't know your energy intake unless you weigh everything. Especially cereal and powders.
I'll add another observation, because I do get the whole spreadsheet tracking thing. Any energy calculation is highly, highly variable with weight change, and weight fluctuation <> fat change. (Most of us are using a ratio of 3500kcal:1lb, high dependency there. And potential to be highly wrong without visibility into water change vs fat change.) After only 11 days, I would expect wildly ranging results (meaning standard deviations approaching value of variables). One way to moderate the deviation is to use 7-day running average weight. I use a 28-day average to account for menstrual fluctuation. Longer average periods reduce the water weight "noise" but require patience and the long view. It's still a fragile equation, highly dependent on minute weight variation.
You can, however, assess your TDEE pretty accurately if (1) your exercise is consistent week-to week, (2) you are patient, and (3) you weigh everything that crosses you lips. Except water. Best of luck!0 -
I think you do not understand what BMR means. Are you saying BMR is maintenance - exercise? If so that is not the case. Not sure what you think the BMR of 2845 means or how you calculated it.
Def not adding LBM in a deficit that large 1613 cal deficit (3298-1685) I am guessing water retention due to water intake and change in exercise. You should def not be eating less than TDEE -25% and you are doing TDEE-50%, keep this up and when you do lose a large % will be from lean muscle, not the fat you want to lose.
You said you weigh/measure food? Are you weight all solids and measuring liquids, or do you measure some solids? measuring solids could put you off 10-35%.
Ok, I'm trying. From what I understood, TDEE is total daily energy expenditure, calculated based on BMR + calories burned though other activities. Sometimes I see it as BMR x 1.55 or some other "factor". I've been using my activity monitor, subtracting my BMR then taking my workout calories out of the equation. Since that goes up and down depending on the day, I should get an average NEAT (non exercise activity thermogenesis).
My average BMR (Harris Benedict, Mifflin St Jeor, Katch McArdle) is 2054.
So if I am creating a deficit through workout and intake that is at least 500 Cals per day...I should lose 1lb per week.
That's the issue...do I need a deficit against BMR or against some other number? Average "maintenance calories" from those models is 3184. Average "Calories to lose weight" (20% deficit) from those models is 2547.
That would create a 4476/week caloric deficit...getting me 1.3 lbs of weight loss per week.
I'm creating a 8000 calorie per week deficit and I gained weight. Even if I were off by 50% on my measurements (output and intake) resulting in 4000 calorie deficit...I should still be losing over a pound per week.
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Google "Lyle McDonald squishy fat and whooshes" and give it 3-4 weeks before drawing conclusions.0
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I think you do not understand what BMR means. Are you saying BMR is maintenance - exercise? If so that is not the case. Not sure what you think the BMR of 2845 means or how you calculated it.
Def not adding LBM in a deficit that large 1613 cal deficit (3298-1685) I am guessing water retention due to water intake and change in exercise. You should def not be eating less than TDEE -25% and you are doing TDEE-50%, keep this up and when you do lose a large % will be from lean muscle, not the fat you want to lose.
You said you weigh/measure food? Are you weight all solids and measuring liquids, or do you measure some solids? measuring solids could put you off 10-35%.
Ok, I'm trying. From what I understood, TDEE is total daily energy expenditure, calculated based on BMR + calories burned though other activities. Sometimes I see it as BMR x 1.55 or some other "factor". I've been using my activity monitor, subtracting my BMR then taking my workout calories out of the equation. Since that goes up and down depending on the day, I should get an average NEAT (non exercise activity thermogenesis).
My average BMR (Harris Benedict, Mifflin St Jeor, Katch McArdle) is 2054.
So if I am creating a deficit through workout and intake that is at least 500 Cals per day...I should lose 1lb per week.
That's the issue...do I need a deficit against BMR or against some other number? Average "maintenance calories" from those models is 3184. Average "Calories to lose weight" (20% deficit) from those models is 2547.
That would create a 4476/week caloric deficit...getting me 1.3 lbs of weight loss per week.
I'm creating a 8000 calorie per week deficit and I gained weight. Even if I were off by 50% on my measurements (output and intake) resulting in 4000 calorie deficit...I should still be losing over a pound per week.
Deficit should be NEAT + Exercise - calories consumed, of put another way TDEE - calories consumed.
In other words, total calories burned - total calories consumed.
If you think you have a deficit of 8000 but on average over 6-8 weeks are losing less than you would expect then your deficit is actually smaller, meaning you are over estimating TDEE and/or under estimating calories consumed.
You do not need a deficit from BMR. I lose weight eating more than BMR. If you eat BMR of 2100, and have a TDEE of 3200 and you eat BMR you are in a deficit of 1100 cals. If is actually advised, unless you are obese, to not eat below BMR.0
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