March 2015 Running Challenge
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Training2BeFast wrote: »
80% of your weekly running should be done at a pace that feels like you could run for hours at. If you can't wait for your run to be over and feels like you can't run another mile, you are running too fast.
Anyway, TL:DR... Easy runs should feel easy.
^^ +1. Truth.0 -
CarsonRuns wrote: »Easy effort, or easy run, pace should not be dependent on distance at all.
that's always what I thought. But again- not a runner.0 -
CarsonRuns wrote: »Easy runs are steady runs at your easy pace. My easy run distance is anything 10K or under and relatively flat (~8:30-9:40 pace).
Easy effort, or easy run, pace should not be dependent on distance at all. When you are finished running, you should feel fresh. I can do 20+ miles at my easy run pace, and when I'm finished running, my HR comes down to normal within a minute or two. Easy run pace, your HR stays in the aerobic zone (~75% of max) the entire time. It's conversational the entire time. There is no additional benefit to running your easy runs faster than easy run pace, or even running them at the fast end of easy.
I run most of my easy runs at about 9:30 pace. I *could* run them closer to 8:00 if I really wanted to, but that would mean I would be more sore and less able to run more miles or to perform workouts to the best of my ability. Easy is easy.
Easy pace: 9:30
Marathon pace: 7:17
Big difference.
@CarsonRuns: Great to see you in here offering your usually awesome advice.
In this context of my explanation, I was referring to the article which specifically said the following:
"A simple and relatively quick way to drop unwanted weight is to eliminate almost all sources of carbs from your meals. A Paleo diet isn’t 100% compatible with heavy training but you can do it while running easy for most of your workouts."
In this context, easy running workouts in my mind would include distance cause the way I interpret the above is in relation to calories burnt and nutrients lost due to running. In other words, if I am running the 20+ miles at my easy pace, I am eating a bunch of calories and some good nutricious food (proteins, carbs, fats, electrolytes, other micronutrients, ect) and a paleo meal after a 20 miler is just ain't gonna cut it for me. But if I did a light 6 miler, then maybe it would suffice. i think that is what the article is saying and the reason why i explained it that way. Then again, those that have more experience with the Paleo diet (I have virtually none actually) would probably offer counter advice.
Now as to what you and what @SonicDeathMonkey80 wrote, yeah easy pace in of itself is spot on with your explanation. And Doug was referring by training to your body (or effort) as opposed to calculators (or hard numbers). I agree with all this. I have used McMillian to get estimated paces, and they roughly will give you a good starting point. But usually when I explain easy pace, I like to use "conversational pace" a lot. And I tell people that they should be able to have a conversation with a running buddy or sing the ABC song outloud if they run by themself without fighting for breath. If you can, then that is within your easy pace range. The ~75% of max HR you quote is also something Daniel's uses when he speaks of easy pace. That's if you know your true Max HR.
Edited: I went back and Daniels actually says 60% of max HR or VO2Max for easy running. I will put the Easy Running video down below.0 -
CarsonRuns wrote: »Easy runs are steady runs at your easy pace. My easy run distance is anything 10K or under and relatively flat (~8:30-9:40 pace).
Easy effort, or easy run, pace should not be dependent on distance at all. When you are finished running, you should feel fresh. I can do 20+ miles at my easy run pace, and when I'm finished running, my HR comes down to normal within a minute or two. Easy run pace, your HR stays in the aerobic zone (~75% of max) the entire time. It's conversational the entire time. There is no additional benefit to running your easy runs faster than easy run pace, or even running them at the fast end of easy.
See but I can talk the entire time regardless of pace. LOL
Personally I consider easy runs for me to be my marathon pace (or rather what I am aiming for my marathon to be). Perhaps I am doing a bit of "sand bagging" for the marathon in April though as it is my 1st marathon. I am aiming to finish around 3:55 which is about 20-30 minutes slower then what my predicted marathon time (based on my half marathon times - depending on which calculator you use). I don't track my HR and just go by feel. It seems to be working well for me thus far. I have been a bit sore after my long runs but not exhausted by any means.0 -
Ran mid-day in the heat today, but needed a bit of a challenge going into my rest day.
3/1 - 17 miles
3/3 - 5 miles
3/4 - 8 miles
3/5 - 5 miles
3/7 - 8 miles
3/8 - 18 miles
3/10 - 5 miles
3/11 - 8 miles
3/13 - 5 miles
3/14 - 5 miles (race PR, 7:21 pace)
3/15 - 12 miles
3/16 - 1 mile
3/17 - 5 miles
3/18 - 8 miles
3/19 - 5 miles
Total: 115 miles
Goal: 180 miles
Remaining: 65 milesAre you sure?
Opossums scare the bajeezus out of me. I'll take a Gila Monster over a creepy possum any day...
Their heads are a bit creepy looking, but usually they tend to react like cats when I run by them at night (occasionally glance at you, then wander off).SonicDeathMonkey80 wrote: »Train to the calculators rather than to your own body, and you'll get injured or explode on your races. Easy pace is easy pace, let your body guide it - not a calculator.
Not a big fan of race/pace calculators here, as my latest VDOT of 44 predictably estimates my 5k-half marathon times, but has been way off for marathons (guessing due to my weight being on the higher end of "normal"). If you just use one of the calculator and plug in my 5k, 10k, 5m and half marathon times into the usual calculators (JD, MM, etc..), it says I should be doing my easy marathon training at a pace that gets my heart rate over 83% - which is a bit of a recipe for injury/burnout. Going by 70% heart rate has me doing most of my easy training about 2-3 minutes/mile slower than my half marathon race pace, and about a minute/mile slower than what calculators spit out.0 -
I should add too that I am learning a ton from you all! Everyone always has such great insight on all subjects. It is great to get perspective from so many different and knowledgeable runners.0
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Daniel's definitions for paces (6 second rule):
reps are ran at your current mile race pace.
interval training at 6-8 seconds per 400m (24-32 secs per mile) slower than reps
threshold is run at 6-8 seconds per 400 slower than interval
easy is around 2-3 minutes/mile slower than your mile race pace.
In another area he says a good runner can race at his/her Lactate Threshold for a good hour.
Tempos are ran around your LT at least some LT Tempo workouts call for this.
Just some other definitions on different paces that I wanted to throw out to everyone.
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Just to show how out of shape I am and how far I have to go, if I had to run at 75% of my max it just be a fast walk (which is probably why I still do walk breaks until my hr hits 150-160). My resting hr is 58. Max 186,192+ if its hot out... A comfortable run for me is about 175.
Maybe by this time next year my numbers will be better.0 -
Just to show how out of shape I am and how far I have to go, if I had to run at 75% of my max it just be a fast walk (which is probably why I still do walk breaks until my hr hits 150-160). My resting hr is 58. Max 186,192+ if its hot out... A comfortable run for me is about 175.
Maybe by this time next year my numbers will be better.
You may benefit from a run/walk. My wife runs a 5K in about a lil less than 45 minutes or ~13-14 min pace if she did the whole thing without stopping or walking. But she would be huffing and puffing most of the way.
She started this beginners run group and they had her running I think is was 90 seconds and then walking for a couple minutes and back to 90 seconds running ect, and she said she could run no problem at a 12 min pace this way.0 -
More on Daniels with Easy running. Even he says, "If the VDOT thing says you're supposed to run 7:30's and you feel good running 7:10's? Then you're fine. On the other hand, there are days that you might feel that you gotta run slower than what that things says, feel free to run slower."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJd2e5qbFo&list=PLiiQG8-sOLCnvJoIXJUxoW3wL0FZm7C 0 -
SonicDeathMonkey80 wrote: »
You had to click the link from the original web posting. Information on how to see the list should be found here: http://strengthrunning.com/newsletter/Where's that grocery list of 90 items on this secret page?The paleo for "easy" runs, would that be applicable to say less than 20 miles a week?
Easy runs are steady runs at your easy pace. My easy run distance is anything 10K or under and relatively flat (~8:30-9:40 pace). That may not be easy for other people tho.
I use the McMillian Calculator to determine roughly what my Easy Pace (as well as tempo and other paces) based upon a recent race finish time. Can be found here:
https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/Thanks again, sweet info!
My pleasure.
Based on my most recent race, McMillan has my easy as being 7:14-8:14 (for reference, my goal marathon pace is 7:45). It also has my marathon at a 7:07 pace, which it clearly is not, but is also not being considered in this recommendation. This is why calculators will screw people up every single time, unless you're that one person who has the numbers match all the way across the board. Now put in a marathon time and you'll get a more accurate read on easy paces, but the shorter distances most likely won't match up to PRs. I'd trust this more than pegging easy paces off of a short distance PR.
Train to the calculators rather than to your own body, and you'll get injured or explode on your races. Easy pace is easy pace, let your body guide it - not a calculator.
And anyone who says easy pace is marathon pace or faster is either sandbagging their racing or overtraining and asking for injury.
"Easy" is so subjective. I'm pushing it to get a sub 10 pace going. As you see, I am out of my league here even using a pace calculator. Im still working up to getting in 4 runs a week.
Easy, and all effort in general, is not subjective. Paces are subjective. My easy pace is the same effort as Meb's, but he covers a longer distance than me
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CodeMonkey78 wrote: »SonicDeathMonkey80 wrote: »
Train to the calculators rather than to your own body, and you'll get injured or explode on your races. Easy pace is easy pace, let your body guide it - not a calculator.
And anyone who says easy pace is marathon pace or faster is either sandbagging their racing or overtraining and asking for injury.
^^ Truth.
Don't get me wrong, I use McMillan (McRun app) for most of my workout pacing. I think the problem lies in a general misunderstanding (of course, not you Doug) that the pace ranges are hard numbers when they are really statistically estimated workout ranges. If the pace does not feel right or elevates the HR to the wrong zone, each runner has to throw pride out the window and slow down.
TL; DR; Listen to your body.
They're useless unless someone is an elite who has PRs that all correlate, per McMillan. I think most hobby runners like us match up until the predicted marathon time. Plug a recent marathon time in there and those easy paces change drastically.
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Ran mid-day in the heat today, but needed a bit of a challenge going into my rest day.
3/1 - 17 miles
3/3 - 5 miles
3/4 - 8 miles
3/5 - 5 miles
3/7 - 8 miles
3/8 - 18 miles
3/10 - 5 miles
3/11 - 8 miles
3/13 - 5 miles
3/14 - 5 miles (race PR, 7:21 pace)
3/15 - 12 miles
3/16 - 1 mile
3/17 - 5 miles
3/18 - 8 miles
3/19 - 5 miles
Total: 115 miles
Goal: 180 miles
Remaining: 65 milesAre you sure?
Opossums scare the bajeezus out of me. I'll take a Gila Monster over a creepy possum any day...
Their heads are a bit creepy looking, but usually they tend to react like cats when I run by them at night (occasionally glance at you, then wander off).SonicDeathMonkey80 wrote: »Train to the calculators rather than to your own body, and you'll get injured or explode on your races. Easy pace is easy pace, let your body guide it - not a calculator.
Not a big fan of race/pace calculators here, as my latest VDOT of 44 predictably estimates my 5k-half marathon times, but has been way off for marathons (guessing due to my weight being on the higher end of "normal"). If you just use one of the calculator and plug in my 5k, 10k, 5m and half marathon times into the usual calculators (JD, MM, etc..), it says I should be doing my easy marathon training at a pace that gets my heart rate over 83% - which is a bit of a recipe for injury/burnout. Going by 70% heart rate has me doing most of my easy training about 2-3 minutes/mile slower than my half marathon race pace, and about a minute/mile slower than what calculators spit out.
The marathon is a different animal whose level of fitness takes years and miles to achieve. The calculators assume a level of fitness that not a lot of people have, hence why conventional wisdom is to add 10-20min to the predictor.0 -
1 - 12mi, easy
2 - 8.2mi, easy
3 - 8.2mi, tempo
4 - 10mi, easy w/FF
5 - 8mi, intervals
6 - 8mi, easy+3.2mi, tempo
7 - 18mi, easy
8 - Rest
9 - 7.2mi, easy
10 - 6.3mi, easy
11 - 6.5mi, easy
12 - Rest
13 - 5.2mi, easy w/strides
14 - 3.14mi, easy
15 - 13.1, race
16 - 3mi, recovery
17 - Rest
18 - 6mi, easy
19 - 8mi, easy
Easy 8 at 8:40
Total: 133mi
Mar goal: 250mi
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March Goal 75 miles
3/1 rest
3/2 2.34 run, then I lifted and carried 25 60#bags of cement to help DH build an observation deck...
3/3 rest because I couldn't walk....see above^^^
3/4 3.44
3/5 3.96
3/6 3.35
3/7 strength training (with bar and dumbbells, not cement bags!)
3/8 3.85 followed by a whale watching cruise
3/9 4.12
3/10 rest
3/11 strength training
3/12 3.22
3/13 3.08
3/14 3.36
3/15 13.18 at Big Island International 1/2 marathon: I PR'd....for my WORST 1/2 marathon time. But, I met my goals: 1. Finish upright. 2. Don't finish last.
3/16 rest because^^^
3/17 3.59
3/18 lazy
3/19 3.54
Total 51.03
(Ticker is my goal for 2015 and accumulation to date)
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Got a call at 9pm last night asking if I could work today........ money is always needed with 4 kids so missed my Friday morning run
........will try and forgo my only "sleep-in" tomorrow and get in a few KM to make up for today! (I prefer morning running....) 0 -
Busy, busy day today and tomorrow will be at a client site doing presentations all day. Hope to get a little run in before I have to hit traffic - I am not used to have to getting up and out the door any more. Working from home for 5+ years will do that to you! I haven't read all the posts - so many today, but I will come back and catch up tomorrow night I hope! I did get a good run in today in between meetings.
Date.......Miles.......Total
03/01.... 2.00....... 2.00 - Dog Beach run
03/02.... 5.22....... 7.22 - Fast rain run
03/03.... 7.88......15.10 - + Strength Training
03/04.... 0.00......15.10
03/05.... 4.03......19.13 - + Strength Training
03/06.... 8.74......27.87 - Windy and so dry
03/07.... 6.70......34.57 - Hot, hot, hot (sorry to all who are still dealing with snow and ice!)
03/08.... 2.00......36.57 - Dog Beach run
03/09.... 5.09......41.66
03/10.....9.52......51.18 - + Strength Training
03/11.....0.00......51.18 - much needed rest day!
03/12.....4.75......55.93 - + Strength Training
03/13.....7.08......63.01 - Hot and windy but a good run! Much better than yesterday
03/14.....0.00......63.01 - pre-5K rest and travel to San DIego
03/15.....3.10......66.11 - 5K
03/16.....5.44......71.55
03/17.....5.05......76.60 - + Strength Training
03/18.....0.00......76.60
03/19.....7.16......83.76 - + Strength Training
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@VintageMatch: Your description of how running fits into your life now and makes me happy is great to read. Keep up the good work! :-)
@Daisy471: I hope you get well soon - running a 10k when you are sick or just recovering sounds tricky. Maybe you want to take it easy to make sure you don't push things too hard too soon and end up with a setback in your half marathon training.
@TwelveSticks : all the best for your HM on Sunday!
Actually, that sounds similar to my heart rate numbers. My max is a little higher (goes p to ~196 when I add a few sprints at the end of a run). During running its 180 for speed runs, and 160-170 for long or easy runs (yes, it actually stays at 170 all the time during a two-hour-run. When I look at the "Heart rate zone" graphic for my last 15km run in my running log, it tells me I was in the "endurance zone" for 6 min, "speed" for 60 min and "spint" for 45 min, which is obviously ridiculous. It felt easy the entire time, and I actually had a 20min long phone conversation during that without the other person noticing that I'm running, so I'm not out of breath or anything.Just to show how out of shape I am and how far I have to go, if I had to run at 75% of my max it just be a fast walk (which is probably why I still do walk breaks until my hr hits 150-160). My resting hr is 58. Max 186,192+ if its hot out... A comfortable run for me is about 175.
Maybe by this time next year my numbers will be better.
I asked a doctor about that once, and he said I could to schedule some extra diagnostics to be sure, but as long as my resting heart rate was low, I feel perfectly fine and my heart rate recovers quickly after each run, that didn't sound worrysome to him (especially since other things like blood-pressure etc were also fine). Apparently, some people just have a higher-than-average heart rate when exercising.
I'm not saying that's the case for you, or that it won't change, but just having 175 during what you consider a comfortable run doesn't have to signify that you are "out of shape".
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01.03.15 - 13.0 km
03.03.15 - 3.3 km
05.03.15 - 4.8 km
08.03.15 - 14.2 km
10.03.15 - 3.6 km
13.03.15 - 4.4 km
14.03.15 - 4.2 km
15.03.15 - 11.0 km
17.03.15 - 3.2 km
19.03.15 - 5.0 km
66.9 km done (of 100km)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT7RsmgQ1EY
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