is lifting the only/best way to retain muscle?
jacksonpt
Posts: 10,413 Member
I'm of the belief that most types of exercise, when done at sufficient intensity, can help retain muscle as you lose weight. I'll see an occasional post that supports this, but by in large it's post after post after post about how people who want to retain LBM should lift. Period. End of conversation.
Am I holding on to an ill-formed opinion because of my own bias, or is the "lift or get weak" philosophy just something that is slow to die?
I feel like most everyone agrees that heavy lifting will encourage muscle retention.
I feel like there's growing support for HIIT as a muscle-retaining exercise.
I feel like steady state cardio gets demonized as a muscle destroyer.
Anyone with any meaningful insight on this?
Am I holding on to an ill-formed opinion because of my own bias, or is the "lift or get weak" philosophy just something that is slow to die?
I feel like most everyone agrees that heavy lifting will encourage muscle retention.
I feel like there's growing support for HIIT as a muscle-retaining exercise.
I feel like steady state cardio gets demonized as a muscle destroyer.
Anyone with any meaningful insight on this?
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It erks me to no end that the vast amount of posts on here make it sound like you should "lift heavy or go home".
I admire and follow obstacle course racing (OCR) athletes who are built amazingly and they can jump/crawl/run/climb/swim/etc. They can even run up mountain sides while carrying heavy objects. Now that is the kind of athlete I want to be. And guess what they do to train? Lifting and cardio...gasp. I've also seen a lot of soccer players and cyclists with massive thighs/legs, and they are clearly doing mostly cardio. *shrug*
The question would be, would just cardio be sufficient in retaining muscles? I mean trail running is going to work muscles that treadmill running won't. So it could depend what cardio you are doing. I don't know, just random thoughts....I don't have a degree in this subject! I'm just a fan of cardio and lifting
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It erks me to no end that the vast amount of posts on here make it sound like you should "lift heavy or go home".
I admire and follow obstacle course racing (OCR) athletes who are built amazingly and they can jump/crawl/run/climb/swim/etc. They can even run up mountain sides while carrying heavy objects. Now that is the kind of athlete I want to be. And guess what they do to train? Lifting and cardio...gasp. I've also seen a lot of soccer players and cyclists with massive thighs/legs, and they are clearly doing mostly cardio. *shrug*
The question would be, would just cardio be sufficient in retaining muscles? I mean trail running is going to work muscles that treadmill running won't. So it could depend what cardio you are doing. I don't know, just random thoughts....I don't have a degree in this subject! I'm just a fan of cardio and lifting
Soccer players and cyclist lift. They also eat appropriately for their activity level, they generally aren't trying to lose weight.0 -
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This is only anectotal from my current experience of 1 but in the past six weeks I lost 15 pounds and according to my bodyfat scale my lean mass is essentially unchanged.
My program was 1000 calorie per day deficit. (I sometimes cheated and ate more)
My diet included whatever I wanted including a fair amount of candy bars.
My only exercise was low intensity walking and running (averaging about 8 to 10 miles a day). Intensity was intentially kept low at less than 70% HRR on the hardest workouts. most was a lot lower than that.
I know bodyfat scales are not entirely accurate but that's the trend even if the absolute values are off.0 -
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It's anecdotal, but I kept a decent enough lbm just doing martial arts and sprinting.
But that's tricky, because there's a fair amount of bodyweight-type stuff in there, which is loading by other means...
...and sprinting/plyo type stuff is a cousin of quick lifting.
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He looks kind of on the small side for a sprinter to me.
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He's also not very big honestly.
Ripped =/= BIG or substantial size.0 -
I don't think you "have" to lift to maintain muscle nor do I feel you "have" to lift heavy...resistance training works as well. Things like pushups, chinups, lunges etc.0
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nods.It's anecdotal, but I kept a decent enough lbm just doing martial arts and sprinting.
But that's tricky, because there's a fair amount of bodyweight-type stuff in there, which is loading by other means...
...and sprinting/plyo type stuff is a cousin of quick lifting.
I'd say you can more than maintain- or not lose a substantial amount of lean body mass without doing excessive/regular/heavy lifting- when I was in construction as an inspector- I would lift concrete in wheelbarrows- or after they were made- the cast cylinders- but not like- all day as a mason or as a laborer or concrete worker would- so in relative work it was light- but it was still enough to keep me from getting sloppy looking.
I maintained through random training- whenever I could- and coupled with a moderately active job. I never ever LOOKED fat- I looked reasonably fit- people thought I was in reasonable shape. Looking at me today- and looking at me then- it's like a whole different person- but honestly- I wasn't ever weak- I did a good job (surprisingly for knowing little to nothing) of not losing all my muscle mass.
But I think that's a different ball of wax entirely from training- and even dropping training down to once or twice a week. Sporadic working out of ANY form as long as it's rigorous- sprints- plyo- construction- is going to keep your from losing it all.
I know Waldo has done all his loading via body weight training- so it's possible- but his goal is different than conventional lifters- he's put on reasonable size- could it have been done more efficiently through a gym? maybe- probably- but he's done extremely well with his body weight progressions on bulk cut cycles.0 -
Soccer players and cyclist lift. They also eat appropriately for their activity level, they generally aren't trying to lose weight.
I didn't say they didn't lift, the pros definitely do. Most of the armatures I know in those sports barely hit the weight room though. Certainly not enough to make their legs look like that. Some of it's coming from their cardio workouts (sprints, riding up hills, etc - which in a way is using body weight to load as jimmer pointed out).0 -
nods.It's anecdotal, but I kept a decent enough lbm just doing martial arts and sprinting.
But that's tricky, because there's a fair amount of bodyweight-type stuff in there, which is loading by other means...
...and sprinting/plyo type stuff is a cousin of quick lifting.
I'd say you can more than maintain- or not lose a substantial amount of lean body mass without doing excessive/regular/heavy lifting- when I was in construction as an inspector- I would lift concrete in wheelbarrows- or after they were made- the cast cylinders- but not like- all day as a mason or as a laborer or concrete worker would- so in relative work it was light- but it was still enough to keep me from getting sloppy looking.
I maintained through random training- whenever I could- and coupled with a moderately active job. I never ever LOOKED fat- I looked reasonably fit- people thought I was in reasonable shape. Looking at me today- and looking at me then- it's like a whole different person- but honestly- I wasn't ever weak- I did a good job (surprisingly for knowing little to nothing) of not losing all my muscle mass.
But I think that's a different ball of wax entirely from training- and even dropping training down to once or twice a week. Sporadic working out of ANY form as long as it's rigorous- sprints- plyo- construction- is going to keep your from losing it all.
I know Waldo has done all his loading via body weight training- so it's possible- but his goal is different than conventional lifters- he's put on reasonable size- could it have been done more efficiently through a gym? maybe- probably- but he's done extremely well with his body weight progressions on bulk cut cycles.
I agree it's a matter of efficiency.
A barbell/dumbbells will just get it done quicker if all your other ducks are in a row (nutrition, non-retarded training plan, sufficient volume)
But it's all a matter of degree. Any fitness endeavour someone will actually stick with will yield superior results to the most efficient one imaginable that they won't.0 -
Soccer players and cyclist lift. They also eat appropriately for their activity level, they generally aren't trying to lose weight.
I didn't say they didn't lift, the pros definitely do. Most of the armatures I know in those sports barely hit the weight room though. Certainly not enough to make their legs look like that. Some of it's coming from their cardio workouts (sprints, riding up hills, etc).
keep in mind
leaness and the by product of muscle definition doesn't mean they are big- it just means you can SEE said muscles.
- Like fitness girls in magazines- most of them are not big at all- their muscles are pathetic (don't get me started on that) they are just LEAN- so they LOOK cut. But they are tiny really in terms of muscle size.0 -
Physical effects--whether from structured exercise or other activity--occur as a result of the type of activity. Maintenance of muscle can be affected by a number of factors like diet and macro balance. If protein intake is sufficient, there is plenty of research showing that endurance athletes can maintain both nitrogen balance and muscle mass even with hours of aerobic training per week. There was a recent study (sorry didn't keep the link) that showed that a protein intake of double he RDA prevented muscle loss in people using diet alone to lose weight.
OTOH the benefits of resistance training are so far reaching, it's something that should be done on its own merits. But that also can take many forms, not just heavy lifting.0 -
His specialty WAS the mile (he's now retired from pro running). His AR is in the mile, and he gained initial fame as the only high school miler to run a sub-4 mile in the last 30 or so years. Mile is middle distance (pretty much anything above 400 and below 10K). Not really like the true sprints in terms of training.
When he was running professionally, Webb's training was 80-100 miles per week (plus lots of time in the pool and weights). Julia Rudd-Webb mentioned in an interview around when this photo was taken that he had hit 102 miles that week.
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Wouldn't a person's composition of muscle fibers (fast twitch versus slow twitch) have an effect on what would be needed to retain muscle?0
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But that dude is clearly skinny. He ran all his size off. Cardio does kill gains if its done to long and to much. If you wanna be tiny run on a treadmill all day. If u want to have muscle and be lean moderate cardio with lots of free weights.0
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tylerw86008 wrote: »But that dude is clearly skinny. He ran all his size off. Cardio does kill gains if its done to long and to much. If you wanna be tiny run on a treadmill all day. If u want to have muscle and be lean moderate cardio with lots of free weights.
Do you really have a tattoo that says "white pride" on your stomach?
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tylerw86008 wrote: »But that dude is clearly skinny. He ran all his size off. Cardio does kill gains if its done to long and to much. If you wanna be tiny run on a treadmill all day. If u want to have muscle and be lean moderate cardio with lots of free weights.
Yo man may I ask how much Lean body mass you have?
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High protein diets in general help preserve lean muscle mass, even without lifting. Ketogenic diets are even better based on my reading.
I have read many times that HIIT is excellent at preserving muscle. I believe this because I do sprints, and I have noticed that my quads actually got bigger after doing them for a couple of months. And I was eating at a significant deficit and losing a lot of weight during that period.
So no, lifting is not necessary.0 -
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I think some form of resistance training is critical. I don't think one has to necessarily lift or lift "heavy", but resistance training is important.
I'm primarily a fitness rider and put in quite a bit of cardio and I also lift...I've had the opportunity through my coach to meet some collegiate athletes as well as some semi-pro and pro athletes including some pro BMX riders and pro cyclists...they all do some form of resistance training and in most cases, they do some kind of weight training. They're not doing Strong Lifts or anything and obviously lifting isn't priority one...but it is a part of they're training.
I think it really depends on your goals...for the average Joe out there trying to get fit and whatnot I don't think cardio...even quite a bit of cardio is going to be detrimental to anything. And I myself only hit the weight room for about 60 minutes 3x weekly and I don't fuss too much if I have to miss a day...but for an aspiring body builder, I could see things being much different as a lot of cardio would most certainly not put them in an optimal position to put on mass and they would obviously have to put in a lot more volume in the weight room.0 -
tylerw86008 wrote: »But that dude is clearly skinny. He ran all his size off. Cardio does kill gains if its done to long and to much. If you wanna be tiny run on a treadmill all day. If u want to have muscle and be lean moderate cardio with lots of free weights.
Do you really have a tattoo that says "white pride" on your stomach?
yes he does...why does that matter?
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tylerw86008 wrote: »But that dude is clearly skinny. He ran all his size off. Cardio does kill gains if its done to long and to much. If you wanna be tiny run on a treadmill all day. If u want to have muscle and be lean moderate cardio with lots of free weights.
Do you really have a tattoo that says "white pride" on your stomach?
I want one that says Pasty Pride.
wait.
that's something else entirely.
wrong forum.0 -
Physical effects--whether from structured exercise or other activity--occur as a result of the type of activity. Maintenance of muscle can be affected by a number of factors like diet and macro balance. If protein intake is sufficient, there is plenty of research showing that endurance athletes can maintain both nitrogen balance and muscle mass even with hours of aerobic training per week. There was a recent study (sorry didn't keep the link) that showed that a protein intake of double he RDA prevented muscle loss in people using diet alone to lose weight.
OTOH the benefits of resistance training are so far reaching, it's something that should be done on its own merits. But that also can take many forms, not just heavy lifting.
I like this answer. I have seen people retain muscle without lifting.0 -
with out some more traditional form of resistance, you are unlikely to adequately train type II muscle (or fast twitch, not sure if that's 1 or 2 right now).
But that could be incorporated into HIIT.
Another criticism for say, running, would be that it doesn't offer any measurable resistance for your upper body.0 -
BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Physical effects--whether from structured exercise or other activity--occur as a result of the type of activity. Maintenance of muscle can be affected by a number of factors like diet and macro balance. If protein intake is sufficient, there is plenty of research showing that endurance athletes can maintain both nitrogen balance and muscle mass even with hours of aerobic training per week. There was a recent study (sorry didn't keep the link) that showed that a protein intake of double he RDA prevented muscle loss in people using diet alone to lose weight.
OTOH the benefits of resistance training are so far reaching, it's something that should be done on its own merits. But that also can take many forms, not just heavy lifting.
I like this answer. I have seen people retain muscle without lifting.
there's nothing here that says how long those studies were done for. you could probably stop lifting for a week, or two, maybe even a month and if you were eating well you might not lose much or any muscle mass but eventually I suspect you would
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I am working on losing a ton of weight and retaining my lean muscle mass (94 lb. gone from a total goal of 151). I swim an hour 3 times a week. It is a good cardio workout, but it also is a good total body strength workout, especially the upper body, because I am pulling my big self through the water which adds resistance.
I am one anecdote but I have definitely gained strength as well as burned fat. I also take an hour water aerobics class right after my laps and I walk at least 10,000 steps on the other 3 days, leaving Sundays to rest.0 -
Why don't you change your profile pic to a swastika, if it doesn't matter? I dare you.tylerw86008 wrote: »But that dude is clearly skinny. He ran all his size off. Cardio does kill gains if its done to long and to much. If you wanna be tiny run on a treadmill all day. If u want to have muscle and be lean moderate cardio with lots of free weights.
Do you really have a tattoo that says "white pride" on your stomach?
yes he does...why does that matter?
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tylerw86008 wrote: »But that dude is clearly skinny. He ran all his size off. Cardio does kill gains if its done to long and to much. If you wanna be tiny run on a treadmill all day. If u want to have muscle and be lean moderate cardio with lots of free weights.
I mean... not really... you just need to learn to balance the energy in/out equation and manipulate the workouts so that you can recover properly. It may be less likely, but there are is certainly individuals out there able to achieve it... (and yes, I'm aware that many may not be natural individuals but that's besides the point).
http://www.completehumanperformance.com/alex-viada.html0
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